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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#21 - 2014-07-29 14:19:18 UTC
Greygal wrote:
Is there a timetable for the Ishtar and other HAC changes to go live? I.e., will these changes be going live before, during, or after the Alliance Tournament?

Thanks!

GG


Hyperion's release date is September 23, 2014, so after the AT.
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#22 - 2014-07-29 14:20:41 UTC  |  Edited by: BadAssMcKill
Give the Muninn +1 mid -1 low tia in advance

And no keep the tempest as is
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-07-29 14:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
I still don't think ships like the abaddon or hyperion are fieldable because of their "exceptional performance in a niche" its extremely underwhelming and I'd rather bring a battleship or equivalent that can fill that niche as well as do other things. I think the Abaddon and Hyperion's massive capacitor problems (especially the Abaddon) make them very difficult to use and apply. I find countless fits that must use heavy capacitor boosters because the abaddon and other similar ships simply cannot be viable at all without them.

Because of this I feel that why should I ever bring an abaddon when any other battleship fills the role far better? Yes the abaddon has its massive tank and such but its not very good at anything else because of mobility, cap problems I just don't think its applicable as anything other than a brick, a heavy nearly unthrowable brick. Why bring an abaddon when I can field other battleships that have just as good tank and better DPS applications (or role applications for that matter) because they don't have capacitor problems!


bump abby's cap up to or past the hyperion's, give it the best regen out of the bunch next to the apoc...and drop a mid for a low on it. The heavy armor tank is central to what the ship is, and I'll be damned before the Gallente beat out the Amarr on lowslot utility and tanking. Evil
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-07-29 14:21:41 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:

I think it's a projectiles problem. they just have no dps at any ranges, ever. but a general weapons rebalance seems unlikely, considering how long this non-change has taken.

I disagree, I think the abilities of artillery is favorable because of its extremely high alpha and extreme range compared to say railguns.

Yes Railguns and Beams might fire faster but the DPS is about the same I find, the huge alpha is the attraction to artillery.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#25 - 2014-07-29 14:23:17 UTC
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

I think it's a projectiles problem. they just have no dps at any ranges, ever. but a general weapons rebalance seems unlikely, considering how long this non-change has taken.

I disagree, I think the abilities of artillery is favorable because of its extremely high alpha and extreme range compared to say railguns.

Yes Railguns and Beams might fire faster but the DPS is about the same I find, the huge alpha is the attraction to artillery.


but they don't have extreme range.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-07-29 14:23:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
BadAssMcKill wrote:
Give the Muninn +1 mid -1 low tia in advance

And no keep the tempest as is

Maybe drop a high for a mid?
Tempest NEEDS tracking bonus, but yeah; keep the slot layout like it is.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2014-07-29 14:24:09 UTC
BadAssMcKill wrote:
Give the Muninn +1 mid -1 low tia in advance

And no keep the tempest as is


I think it's supposed to be able to do armour.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-07-29 14:24:42 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
I still don't think ships like the abaddon or hyperion are fieldable because of their "exceptional performance in a niche" its extremely underwhelming and I'd rather bring a battleship or equivalent that can fill that niche as well as do other things. I think the Abaddon and Hyperion's massive capacitor problems (especially the Abaddon) make them very difficult to use and apply. I find countless fits that must use heavy capacitor boosters because the abaddon and other similar ships simply cannot be viable at all without them.

Because of this I feel that why should I ever bring an abaddon when any other battleship fills the role far better? Yes the abaddon has its massive tank and such but its not very good at anything else because of mobility, cap problems I just don't think its applicable as anything other than a brick, a heavy nearly unthrowable brick. Why bring an abaddon when I can field other battleships that have just as good tank and better DPS applications (or role applications for that matter) because they don't have capacitor problems!


bump abby's cap up to or past the hyperion's, give it the best regen out of the bunch next to the apoc...and drop a mid for a low on it. The heavy armor tank is central to what the ship is, and I'll be damned before the Gallente beat out the Amarr on lowslot utility and tanking. Evil


Its funny because the Apoc has a shorter targetting distance than the Abaddon despite the Apoc getting a range and tracking bonus, the entire purpose of a sniping ship

I think the abaddon's cap problems also heavily stems into Laser Capacitor usage which makes most amarr ships have terrible cap problems. For a race that uses lasers with capacitor as ammo you'd think they would have developed technology to help alleviate this issue.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-07-29 14:25:14 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?



I would send you a bottle of wine just for the fact hat you are trying to get the tempest out of the hole it is stuck now. I would not be against 8/4/7. But how about 7/5/7 ? Is not as the tempest is the standard NOS battleship anymore. That work is always better done by the drone boats.


Also on the HACS, Think a bit about the Zealot please. Currently it is in a bad spot. The navy omen and the other amarr HAC ( got a blank and cannot remember the name) leave it without role. The nomen is better as a mobile long range shooter and the other as a brawler.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#30 - 2014-07-29 14:25:31 UTC
i don't really get the muninn +20m/s change ... the rupture only has 210m/s .. its a sniper so why should it have som much speed ??? especially when you only want too give the eagle 190m/s .. the eagle with good speed and drones could be a good blaster boat .. a munnin will always be a arty boat..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-07-29 14:25:40 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

I think it's a projectiles problem. they just have no dps at any ranges, ever. but a general weapons rebalance seems unlikely, considering how long this non-change has taken.

I disagree, I think the abilities of artillery is favorable because of its extremely high alpha and extreme range compared to say railguns.

Yes Railguns and Beams might fire faster but the DPS is about the same I find, the huge alpha is the attraction to artillery.


but they don't have extreme range.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure artillery can reach farther than rails can they just have less tracking to balance
Requiescat
Hoover Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2014-07-29 14:27:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


would you kindly stop ruining solo battleship slot layouts please?

hands off my nanopest.

hi i'm requiescat, and i'm your best friendā™„

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#33 - 2014-07-29 14:27:48 UTC
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

I think it's a projectiles problem. they just have no dps at any ranges, ever. but a general weapons rebalance seems unlikely, considering how long this non-change has taken.

I disagree, I think the abilities of artillery is favorable because of its extremely high alpha and extreme range compared to say railguns.

Yes Railguns and Beams might fire faster but the DPS is about the same I find, the huge alpha is the attraction to artillery.


but they don't have extreme range.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure artillery can reach farther than rails can they just have less tracking to balance


nope. they have no range, no tracking and no dps. it's all in the volley damage, and the no-cap and damage types thing.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-07-29 14:28:06 UTC
The tempest main problem is, a battleship that devote BOTH bonuses to damage and yet is the among lowest damage of all on realistic fits.

Only 6 lows is not enough for a competitive tank AND competitive damage mod number.


It does need 7 low slots. OR one of its damage mods changed. Something like 5% rof and 7.5% Damage per level . That way the battleship with 2 damage mods would STILL not be among the highest damage ones, but would not be on the bottom as well.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Musashibou Benkei
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2014-07-29 14:28:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Musashibou Benkei
Tempest is fine as it is now with its versatility in choice of either shield or armor fitting. If you're going to take a slot and put it into the lows, take it from high instead of mid.

As many people have stated, the problem with ishtars is their ability to use sentries and be insanely mobile as well. Outside of using bombs in null, low sec fights have no "good" way of taking away their dps unless you want to sacrifice a smarty battleship to the pvp Gods each time.

On a side note, you guys at CCP need to not just "tweak the current" but also keep adding new things. The last thing you actually added to the game was a single t2 mining frigate and nothing else (I'm not counting the mordus ships because I don't consider them "line ships"). It's just a circling of encouraging/forcing people to train skills they didn't have to train before or further eyecandy.

Where is the t2 smartbombing ship? Where is the mobile cyno jamming ship? Where is the sub-cap mini-triage ship? I'm not saying these ideas are good or anything but goddamn; these latest patches are seriously lacking in actual new content.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#36 - 2014-07-29 14:28:37 UTC
Requiescat wrote:
solo battleship


please, rise and fozzie are delusional enough already
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#37 - 2014-07-29 14:28:56 UTC

The Ishtar currently has

Quote:
Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty


Would the 7.5% bonus to Heavy drone max velocity and tracking also be nerfed to 5%?
or
Are we ONLY changing the Sentry Drone Optimal Range and Tracking Speed HAC bonus?

I think this is a good start, but it will still be extremely powerful.
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
#38 - 2014-07-29 14:28:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185


Just reduce the cap regen on the ishtar by 20%.

~lvl 60 paladin~

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2014-07-29 14:30:26 UTC
Requiescat wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


would you kindly stop ruining solo battleship slot layouts please?

hands off my nanopest.



Whatever you can do with the current tempest you can do better with the typhoon (specially the nano niche) . The tempest, havign 2 bonuses for guns directly should be able to do more damage and that a 7th low slot would help into. But I woudl stil prefer to keep current layout and make the DAMAGE bonus to 7.5% per level

12.5% more damage would not break ANYTHING and would make it competitive.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-07-29 14:30:57 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

I think it's a projectiles problem. they just have no dps at any ranges, ever. but a general weapons rebalance seems unlikely, considering how long this non-change has taken.

I disagree, I think the abilities of artillery is favorable because of its extremely high alpha and extreme range compared to say railguns.

Yes Railguns and Beams might fire faster but the DPS is about the same I find, the huge alpha is the attraction to artillery.


but they don't have extreme range.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure artillery can reach farther than rails can they just have less tracking to balance


nope. they have no range, no tracking and no dps. it's all in the volley damage, and the no-cap and damage types thing.

Yea you're right, just looking at pyfa shows the artillery trades some optimal range for fall off and the rails have more optimal but less fall off, leading to about the same overall range