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Crius Feedback

First post First post
Author
Pirate's Bunny
Restyled.
#401 - 2014-07-26 14:09:16 UTC
So now the manufacturing of Tower Fuel Blocks is nerfed, too? You want to tell me that production time for this went from 2h to 7h35min for 65 runs of a Caldari Tower fuel bpo?? You gotta be kidding. And why do I have to pay now money for doing that in my own installation? Where is the option to have cost paid by corp?
George Gouillot
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#402 - 2014-07-26 15:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: George Gouillot
Mara Kell wrote:
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:


I don't know if you guys are really that clueless for the supposed level of engagement with the indy side of the game you claim to have, or if you're trolling.

I'll bite; two questions for you:
- Do you think it's only your special snowflake BPCs/BPOs that have changed, or everybody's?
- Do you think market will continue to sell at pre-Crius prices forever and ever, or maybe just maybe, there's a chance that it'll start reflecting new costs-to-manufacture, and margins will be restored? Like virtually every big ticket item that has seen manufacturing cost changes?

If you still decide to leave the game, thank you for doing so.


Have you even read my post and looked at the picture i made?

Archon BPO pre cruis vs past crius

Our problem is not that production cost changed for everyone, or that we have to adapt to new industrial rules. The problem ist that unlike promised many BPOs got nerfed depending on their ME Level pre Crius. The Archon ist just an example for this. All carrier, dread, freighter and the rorqual BPOs have this problem too.

I have invested lots of ISK into small capital BPOs and the financial loss for the shown Archon BPO (for only ONE) is half a year of gametime and hundreds of millions of ISK to make it a really good BPO again (which it was before the patch).
This is unfair because whether you got shafted or not depends on the ME level your BPO had before the patch.
For the Archon for example those with ME 0 and those with ME 10+ before the patch are fine off now while all between that got massively shafted.
And as is said, this is not only me and not only the Archon. This has hit many players with many different small capital BPOs.
Im still asking CCP for a comment..


You still don't get that this will be compensated through the market? And with more people ragequitting, it will most likely be overcompensated over time. The players who buy those ships to get them exploded will pay for it.
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#403 - 2014-07-26 15:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
George Gouillot wrote:

You still don't get that this will be compensated through the market? And with more people ragequitting, it will most likely be overcompensated over time. The players who buy those ships to get them exploded will pay for it.

Yea, totally no need to be concerned about all these people now paying more for the same stuff because certain someone just loves round numbers. Totally no need to be concerned about those who prebuilt those modules for many months/years ahead while it was less costy in materials, and now will be controlling markets undercuting prices.
All is totally okay.. for those certain people. And of course it so great to have round numbers everywhere. Like everyone says, Eve is a game about numbers. Round ones, preferably.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#404 - 2014-07-26 15:48:08 UTC
Industry UI - Field widths.

Security column input is never going to be more than 4 char's wide, call it 6 for blank space. Why default it to a much wider space than what is needed to put blank space around the waay tooo long label "Security"???

Same thing for the "Job runs", "Activity", "Install date" , and "End date" columns.

Every team apparently thinks their jobs rely on how many pixels they chew through.

Death Salesman
Iron Knights
#405 - 2014-07-26 16:04:54 UTC
So I'm looking to get a team in my system for ammo production with a material boost. I found a team and bid on it.

The next day I look around and finally find the team I bid on (which shouldn't have taken so long).

But after finding my team I noticed several other teams with the same ammo boosts that have been bid on for my system.

If I knew there was a team with a bid for my system already I wouldn't have bidded on it. Now it looks like our system may end up with 3+ teams that give bonuses to ammo production.

I'd be great to search by "teams system X has bid on". That and teams you've placed bids for.
George Gouillot
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#406 - 2014-07-26 16:36:02 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
George Gouillot wrote:

You still don't get that this will be compensated through the market? And with more people ragequitting, it will most likely be overcompensated over time. The players who buy those ships to get them exploded will pay for it.

Yea, totally no need to be concerned about all these people now paying more for the same stuff because certain someone just loves round numbers. Totally no need to be concerned about those who prebuilt those modules for many months/years ahead while it was less costy in materials, and now will be controlling markets undercuting prices.
All is totally okay.. for those certain people. And of course it so great to have round numbers everywhere. Like everyone says, Eve is a game about numbers. Round ones, preferably.


Everyone who did build Archons years ahead to undercut a 2014 expansion is a genius. I will pay him tons of real life money to give me stock market tips ....
Wait, his RoCE was 0 for this time? Hmmm, think I'll stay with this old scary women that predicts my portfolio prices and is right 50% of the time.
Mara Kell
Herrscher der Zeit
Pandemic Horde
#407 - 2014-07-26 16:39:35 UTC
George Gouillot wrote:

You still don't get that this will be compensated through the market? And with more people ragequitting, it will most likely be overcompensated over time. The players who buy those ships to get them exploded will pay for it.


You really dont get the point here. I dont care how the actual price for a ship, here the archon, is. I explain the real problem with an example:

An Example:
Player A with an ME 8 pre Crius Archon BPO
Player B with an ME 10 pre Crius Archon BPO

The problem is, that before the patch Player A with an ME 8 Archon BPO built the ship at eaxctly the same price as Player B with an ME 10 BPO. Still some people researched their BPO to 10 mostly because there were unable to use a calulator.

Now with Crius player B suddenly builds his Archon 5.2%!!! Cheaper than player A. That means an extra cost of 70 Million ISK every single time player A builds an archon compared to his rival.

The market will not and never compensate for this because no one gives player A 70m extra just because he got shafted by CCP.

To compensate the shafting player A will have to research his BPO to ME 10 which takes half a year and hundreds of millions ISK.

So, CCP has reduced the competitiveness of certain BPOs with certain ME levels to 0 and you dont see a problem in this? I guess you have no BPOs at all or you have all to ME 10 and are scared to loose your unfair advantage...
Nolan Kotulan
Nova Tabula Rasa
#408 - 2014-07-26 17:29:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolan Kotulan
Mara Kell wrote:

Player A with an ME 8 pre Crius Archon BPO
Player B with an ME 10 pre Crius Archon BPO

The problem is, that before the patch Player A with an ME 8 Archon BPO built the ship at eaxctly the same price as Player B with an ME 10 BPO. Still some people researched their BPO to 10 mostly because there were unable to use a calulator.

Now with Crius player B suddenly builds his Archon 5.2%!!! Cheaper than player A. That means an extra cost of 70 Million ISK every single time player A builds an archon compared to his rival.

The market will not and never compensate for this because no one gives player A 70m extra just because he got shafted by CCP.

To compensate the shafting player A will have to research his BPO to ME 10 which takes half a year and hundreds of millions ISK.

So, CCP has reduced the competitiveness of certain BPOs with certain ME levels to 0 and you dont see a problem in this? I guess you have no BPOs at all or you have all to ME 10 and are scared to loose your unfair advantage...

I don't see the problem either.

The question is, what sounds more logical to you?
Having different ME levels producing the same result (before) or having a reason to reach the highest level (now)?
Having ME 10 is an unfair advantage? Wait...

You are only complaining because you don't want to adapt.

Becomes a point, you can't improve some aspects of the game without making changes that will, in a way or another, make some players temporary unhappy.

The key is to adapt, point.

Per aspera ad astra

Mara Kell
Herrscher der Zeit
Pandemic Horde
#409 - 2014-07-26 17:53:29 UTC
Nolan Kotulan wrote:

The question is, what sounds more logic to you?
Having differents ME levels producing the same result (pre-patch) or having a reason to reach the highest level (post-patch)?

You are only complaining because you don't want to adapt.

Becomes a point, you can't improve some aspects of the game without making changes that will, in a way or another, make some players temporary unhappy.

The key is to adapt, point.


I am complaining because CCP assured us that exactly what now has happened would not happen. When they cant change the game in a fair manner, why do they pretend to be able to do so?

Btw take a minute and watch the picture i have posted above. You will notice that the Archon BPO has at ME 0 1 and 2 exactly the same material imput AFTER the patch. So what was you point?
Nolan Kotulan
Nova Tabula Rasa
#410 - 2014-07-26 17:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolan Kotulan
Mara Kell wrote:

I am complaining because CCP assured us that exactly what now has happened would not happen. When they cant change the game in a fair manner, why do they pretend to be able to do so?

Btw take a minute and watch the picture i have posted above. You will notice that the Archon BPO has at ME 0 1 and 2 exactly the same material imput AFTER the patch. So what was you point?

I watched the picture, and that's why I answered you what I answered you.
Having same material imput at lower levels is less illogical and unfair that having the same at higher end levels.

Now, the communication by CCP might be the problem, but certainly not the changes.

Per aspera ad astra

Joseph Soprano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#411 - 2014-07-26 18:35:13 UTC
Nolan Kotulan wrote:
Mara Kell wrote:

I am complaining because CCP assured us that exactly what now has happened would not happen. When they cant change the game in a fair manner, why do they pretend to be able to do so?

Btw take a minute and watch the picture i have posted above. You will notice that the Archon BPO has at ME 0 1 and 2 exactly the same material imput AFTER the patch. So what was you point?


I watched the picture, and that's why I answered you what I answered you.
Having same material imput at lower levels is less illogical and unfair that having the same at higher end levels.

Now, the communication by CCP might be the problem, but certainly not the changes.


So you don't actually see a problem in it taking over a year to research one level of ML?
Nolan Kotulan
Nova Tabula Rasa
#412 - 2014-07-26 18:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolan Kotulan
Joseph Soprano wrote:

So you don't actually see a problem in it taking over a year to research one level of ML?

Nope.

Per aspera ad astra

Joseph Soprano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#413 - 2014-07-26 18:43:30 UTC
Nolan Kotulan wrote:
Joseph Soprano wrote:

So you don't actually see a problem in it taking over a year to research one level of ML?

Nope.


And from that answer you shall be judged. :)
Capt GoodDeal
Doomheim
#414 - 2014-07-26 19:10:19 UTC
Joseph Soprano wrote:
Nolan Kotulan wrote:
Joseph Soprano wrote:

So you don't actually see a problem in it taking over a year to research one level of ML?

Nope.


And from that answer you shall be judged. :)


NP problem at all for a forum alt who never has or never will research a thing.
Nolan Kotulan
Nova Tabula Rasa
#415 - 2014-07-26 20:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolan Kotulan
Capt GoodDeal wrote:

NP problem at all for a forum alt who never has or never will research a thing.


That is not the point.
The point is, what is logical?

If something is badly designed and illogical, are you really saying we have to keep it as it is just to keep YOU "happy"?

Oh, wait...

Adapt or not, it's up to you!

Per aspera ad astra

Calha Nemarr
Perkone
Caldari State
#416 - 2014-07-26 20:49:58 UTC
I'm seeing a lot of negative feedback, but I, for one, really like the changes, and want to see how they progress. On the other hand, I'm not doing capital production, and I don't have any expensive, heavily researched BPO's.

The window is a bit bulky, but getting away from "spreadsheets in space" is worth a little bulk. It's pretty easy for me to figure out what I'm spending and where, which wasn't the case before.

It doesn't seem like it was designed with bulk in mind, though. When I go to use the interface, I'm going to run twenty jobs at a time (10 production, 10 research). It's very flickery if you try to do that quickly. Like, the background color of the info pane changes from black to dark grey all the time, and there's no reason for that. It looks like it makes a great new player experience with the inviting "hey, drop the blueprint here!" slot, but within minutes, you're trying to do a lot with it and then it breaks down. I think it could use some smoothing out.

I've been doing this a while, though, and for me, it's still a difficult workflow. When I produce, I've got virtually identical blueprints all lined up. I imagine this is a very common use case. It's much better than it was before, but CCP has stated the want "every click to represent a meaningful decision." But I've already made all the meaningful decisions getting the materials and blueprints together; I just want to run some jobs. Ideally, that should be just two or three clicks total.

I really want to be able to just shift-click on ten blueprints and run them all. You're already storing parameters in between jobs (how many runs, etc.), so in theory, you could just have the client emit a click on the "start" button and then a click on the next blueprint, and go forward in that manner. The upper pane could either provide a summary of all the jobs or the info on just the first job.

If that's not practical technically, then at least advance the selected blueprint to the next blueprint down on the list whenever I click "start". When I start a job, the next thing I want to do is start the next job, not cancel the one I just started. The way it stands, I have to click "start job" then WAIT a difficult-to-guess amount of time for that job to actually go through, THEN click the next blueprint and WAIT a difficult-to-guess amount of time for that blueprint to actually get selected, THEN click start again. If I mess it up, I wind up with the wrong blueprint selected or accidentally click "stop" on a job, either of which wastes another cycle of waiting for the interface to settle down. It's frustrating to be racing ahead of the interface like that.

If the selection automatically advanced, then I wouldn't have to move my mouse around, I could just wait until the interface settled down, and then hit "start" again. Still not ideal, but much less error-prone, and probably very reasonable to implement.

On a related note, I like the idea of "used" blueprints show up in the blueprint list, but in 95% of cases, I really don't want them there. My blueprint list is my list of jobs to run. I don't want already-running jobs in my list of jobs to run. The only reason I'd ever need "in progress" blueprints to show up in the main blueprint list is if I'm trying to track down a particular blueprint whether it's running or not. So an option to turn "in progress" blueprints off, defaulting to off, would serve my needs the best.

Thank you for a long-overdue look at industry. I think many of the issues that others have listed are fixable, and what we see here is a big step in the right direction.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#417 - 2014-07-26 21:47:20 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
21 pages, yet not a single answer from any CCP stuff in the thread.


That's to be expected. CCP doesn't care and quite honestly I don't think they even know how this game is played anymore.

It's obvious CCP jumps on whatever brainfart of an idea a Dev has who then does a half-ass job of programing and then force feeds the buggy result to the player base without even testing it.

Seriously.

Evil



DMC
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#418 - 2014-07-26 21:54:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
Mara Kell wrote:
After further investigation about the BPO transition to Crius i would like to hear from a Dev, how the picture i have linked is consistant with "no blueprint gets functionally worse".

I have made a chart with the needed cap parts for building one run of Archon with the pre Crius BPOs and the post Crius BPOs.
My own was transitionen from ME 6 to ME -9. As you can see in the graph my BPO went from allmost perfect to pretty useless and now needs 8 capital parts more to build an archon than before.

Archon capital parts comparison

The comparison also shows that every single archon BPO no matter what ME level got worse. But basicly the closer you had researched it to 10, the more you got shafted because only the former ME 10+ BPOs are of any use now.

So my BPOs got functionally worse, and not only a small bit... Any comments CCP?

The reason for this mess is pretty obvious. Its the new calculation formula that rounds up in combination with low part numbers of small capital ships.


A point everyone this affects needs to be hammering is how the discrepancy is not simply a result of the removal of production efficiency. As, you have to remember, none of the devs play the game.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#419 - 2014-07-26 22:59:00 UTC
Trolling post removed.

Forum rule 5. Trolling is prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL

Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#420 - 2014-07-26 23:03:26 UTC
Nolan Kotulan wrote:
Capt GoodDeal wrote:

NP problem at all for a forum alt who never has or never will research a thing.


That is not the point.
The point is, what is logical?

If something is badly designed and illogical, are you really saying we have to keep it as it is just to keep YOU "happy"?

Oh, wait...

Adapt or not, it's up to you!


Screwing over a large group of your established customers is logical??

Badly designed and illogical?? How would you know, you never used it.

Back to your goonie main and go gank a noob in a T1 hauler, ya know something you can handle intellectually.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.