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Crius Feedback

First post First post
Author
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#421 - 2014-07-26 23:15:30 UTC
Nolan Kotulan wrote:
Capt GoodDeal wrote:

NP problem at all for a forum alt who never has or never will research a thing.


That is not the point.
The point is, what is logical?

If something is badly designed and illogical, are you really saying we have to keep it as it is just to keep YOU "happy"?

Oh, wait...

Adapt or not, it's up to you!


Pretty much this, entitled themepark carebears logic. If this type of people don't cry, then CCP failed to deliver a good expansion.

The Tears Must Flow

Nolan Kotulan
Nova Tabula Rasa
#422 - 2014-07-26 23:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolan Kotulan
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:


Screwing over a large group of your established customers is logical??

Badly designed and illogical?? How would you know, you never used it.

Back to your goonie main and go gank a noob in a T1 hauler, ya know something you can handle intellectually.


You don't get the point and/or just don't want to understand a simple logical thing;
You are talking about me wheras you absolutely don't know me, what I do and how I play;

And you're talking about intellectuallity?
Oh wait (again)...

Nobody has been screw up, this is what you don't understand; things are more logical now and the changes are for everyone, so, say me, what is unfair? ...

Per aspera ad astra

George Gouillot
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#423 - 2014-07-27 00:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: George Gouillot
Mara Kell wrote:
George Gouillot wrote:

You still don't get that this will be compensated through the market? And with more people ragequitting, it will most likely be overcompensated over time. The players who buy those ships to get them exploded will pay for it.


You really dont get the point here. I dont care how the actual price for a ship, here the archon, is. I explain the real problem with an example:

An Example:
Player A with an ME 8 pre Crius Archon BPO
Player B with an ME 10 pre Crius Archon BPO

The problem is, that before the patch Player A with an ME 8 Archon BPO built the ship at eaxctly the same price as Player B with an ME 10 BPO. Still some people researched their BPO to 10 mostly because there were unable to use a calulator.

Now with Crius player B suddenly builds his Archon 5.2%!!! Cheaper than player A. That means an extra cost of 70 Million ISK every single time player A builds an archon compared to his rival.

The market will not and never compensate for this because no one gives player A 70m extra just because he got shafted by CCP.

To compensate the shafting player A will have to research his BPO to ME 10 which takes half a year and hundreds of millions ISK.

So, CCP has reduced the competitiveness of certain BPOs with certain ME levels to 0 and you dont see a problem in this? I guess you have no BPOs at all or you have all to ME 10 and are scared to loose your unfair advantage...



You were right if the market could be saturated by ME 10 BPO holders.
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#424 - 2014-07-27 01:18:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
George Gouillot wrote:
You were right if the market could be saturated by ME 10 BPO holders.
The point you seem to be missing is the market is already saturated with goods made with greater than ME10 BPs and will be for a considerable amount of time.

This update basically just locked everyone who wasn't a well established industrialist before crius out of industry for the foreseeable future. As well as a number of people who were already very well established.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.

Dhrastette Lazair
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#425 - 2014-07-27 09:24:59 UTC
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
George Gouillot wrote:
You were right if the market could be saturated by ME 10 BPO holders.
The point you seem to be missing is the market is already saturated with goods made with greater than ME10 BPs and will be for a considerable amount of time.

This update basically just locked everyone who wasn't a well established industrialist before crius out of industry for the foreseeable future. As well as a number of people who were already very well established.


as well as this, and I love the irony here. By increasing the costs of ALL items (via the new isk sinks and production quantities) on the market they will decreases the chance of massive conflict to drive consumption as players become more risk averse due to the cost implications....Brilliant, just brilliant
Valedictio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#426 - 2014-07-27 12:30:11 UTC
OK as a starting point I do believe CCP have done a fairly good job or translating well researched BPO's fairly,
as examples,
425mm Railgun
-41 Tritanium
-10 Pyerite
-2 Mexallon
+1 Isogen
+1 Megacyte
Curator
+1 Tritanium
-1 Pyerite
+1 megacyte

So as a rule the majority of blueprint (that were researched efficiently) have transitioned well,

The problems and complaints arise with the changes in the skills, a fully trained industrialist didn't require to fully research his BPO to be optimal. Some did and some didn't, I can sympathise a little with the larger ship/Cap BPO holders.

A problem I do however have is that a BPO is of infinate runs,
as an example the aforementioned 425mm Railgun,
In Empire Station my Infinate run BPO has a MAX run of 1579
In a POS it increases to a Maximum of 2106 runs, Hurrah I hear you say, a mineral reduction to your larger run ?

but there is another problem with this POS build, how do you fit the 2,896,944.56 m3 in a 1 Mil m3 Cargo.

but not to worry it will only take a full 30 days to make the aforementioned guns, obviously longer building in station.

I have no doubt that changing the Industrial side of EVE was a massive job, The delay to produce a more 'polished' product ? Hasn't really been too polished when you look at the Issues thread, I would gladly have waited longer for a more improved game experience, we waited 10 years for a new improved experience (dear god the clickfest needed it), What we didn't want or need was the 'polished' product apart from the bits you didn't feel were neccesary.

I feel partially responsible as I like a lot of others gave up on feedback to DevBlogs etc, trying to understand a massive ammount of continual change to a varied and complex activity.

The drivel produced by some detracts from relevant (sensible) posts, now we have to live with what was produced, what we as a playerbase choose to do with it is entirely at our disposal.

and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.

Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'

Tiberius Zol
Moira.
Villore Accords
#427 - 2014-07-27 12:38:07 UTC
I am no capital industrialist but i do some small / medscale industrial stuff.. and i sympathise with some capital bpo holders here...

one of the questions before crius was: "what happens to the BPO it its perfect now and below ME10" The answer from CCP (i believe it was CCP Greyscale) was: "in this case it will be perfect also when crius hits".

Now, after the release of crius we see several BPOs which are not perfect anymore..

In my case i have only to research a few weeks to get most of my BPOs perfect again.. (some exceptions of course with several months research needed)...

The Point is: CCP said.. all perfect BPOs before crius will be perfect after crius again... and this is simply not true.

Mr. Tibbers on twitter: @Mr_Tibbers

Mr. Tibbers Blog: www.eve-versum.de

Vic Vorlon
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#428 - 2014-07-27 14:55:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Vic Vorlon
I'd like to request an extra piece of information to be included somewhere in the new Industry window; what will be the material inputs required AFTER I research a BPO? The player has to make a decision about how many runs of material research they wish to do, but there is no feedback on what the resulting BPO will do for them. Without that feedback, they're flying blind.

Knowing a percentage of material reduction isn't enough by itself, especially in the area of T1 rig BPOs, where there may no change at all until a certain threshold is reached. I'd like the screen to tell me how much research I need to do in order to see an actual reduction in inputs needed on this BPO.

Re: the issue of "perfect" BPOs not being "perfect" after Crius, I think there was a misunderstanding, one which I fell into as well. BPOs that had perfect no-waste manufacturing for YOU, with your Material Efficiency IV or V, aren't perfect after Crius because the M.E skill is gone. I had several rig BPOs researched to ME 1 or 2 (pre-Crius) that gave me (with M.E IV) no-waste output, but after Crius, they need be pushed up to ME 10 in order to be no-waste again. At least, I assume 10 is the threshold (see my original request).

[Update from a couple of weeks later: OOH! *THAT'S* how it works now Shocked The ME level of the BPO gets applied across the whole run. So if you're making 100 things which, at ME 0, would need 4 inputs each for a total of 400 inputs.

But if you have an ME 10 bpo for the same 100 run operation, it will only need 360 inputs, a 10% discount on the original 400. BUT if you make just 1 of them, you'd still need 4, because the number of jobs isn't big enough for the BPO to give you a reduction in waste.

OK, I'm good now :)
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#429 - 2014-07-27 15:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mistah Ewedynao
There are so many little bugs it's just mind boggling that they released this junk.

How did they screw up drones with an industry "patch"? Heck they even created bugs in non industry stuff.

Teams are a complete joke for the average builder....I mean JOKE!

Roll this back, fix and modify it to make sense, quit screwing over long time players...

Or just rename this to EXODUS

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.

Zifrian
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#430 - 2014-07-27 15:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Zainou 'Beancounter' Research RR-601 / RR-603 / RR-605 Implants' description is not very clear. It says:

Quote:
A neural Interface upgrade that boosts the pilots research skills.

1% bonus to blueprint manufacturing time research.


Suggest changing to the following:

Quote:
A neural Interface upgrade that boosts the pilots research skills.

1% reduction to blueprint Time Efficiency research time.


Also, the other Zainou implants for copy speed and ME research should also be updated to show 'reduction to blueprint [activity] research time' since they are reductions. I.e. 1% reduction in material efficiency research time and 1% reduction in blueprint copy time. Just to be clear, this needs to be changed for all variants (1% / 3% / 5%).

This keeps with the new reduction language of ME/TE throughout industry and matches the Zainou 'Beancounter' Industry BX-801/2/4 implant descriptions.

Thanks

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#431 - 2014-07-27 16:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvanium Orlenard
I know this has been stated before but I'm going to add my voice to it.

1. Could you please add a way for us to filter Blueprints that are already in use out of the blueprints list in the industry window. Don't get me wrong I love that the information is there as it allows us to better understand what we have but when we are setting up jobs these greyed out blueprints just add extra clutter that forces me to scroll down.

2. I love that you made an effort to keep the industry window up to date. But the animations within the industry window, while cool and slick, adds a small amount of lag (I set up a job and have to wait a few seconds before I can select an other blueprint). While the entire process of setting up multiple identical jobs is way way faster then in the pre-crius I feel that I'm still waiting for the industry window to catch up with me. God forbid if I have 2 clients open at the same time and have the industry window opened at the same place on both clients, now suddenly BOTH clients need to have their industry window updated . . .

3. This is not that important and not a bug but a "It would be nice to have" : If I am setting up 11 identical jobs at the same time, could it be possible that I select all 11 blueprints at the same time and simply click "Start Jobs" which would start 11 identical jobs.

4. Assuming number 3 is impossible, could you add a start job button in the blueprint list next to each blueprint which would start a job with the previous settings? (Or maybe just look for a double click event on the preferred Activity icon?)

5. Why can't I bid on teams using a corp wallet??

6. Why can't I pay for a job at a POS using my personal wallet? (This would be a nice ability for any corp that have towers but are not industry focused, like I don't know any and all W-Space corps . . . )


Overall I think these are good changes, just a few glitches and annoying things to iron out. Sometimes plain jane is better then an animated cool and slick interface . . .
Cat Harkness
Twilight Labs
The Serenity Initiative
#432 - 2014-07-27 16:56:39 UTC
From the Dev Blog on "Reprocess All The Things"

Quote:
Ability to change the output destination of reprocessing (hangar, corporation hangar or a container within those)


I have not been able to find a way to change the output location. And when reprocessing from a Corp Hanger the output is placed in my hanger.

Any help here?

Cat Harkness

CEO

Twilight Labs

Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#433 - 2014-07-27 18:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Or just rename this to EXODUS


I don't know, I think Crius was as good a name as they could've given this update. I mean the only people haven't who made the "more like Crisis" joke are those who realize it's too close to the truth to be funny.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.

Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#434 - 2014-07-28 02:09:01 UTC
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
Krystyn wrote:
Mara Kell wrote:
After further investigation about the BPO transition to Crius i would like to hear from a Dev, how the picture i have linked is consistant with "no blueprint gets functionally worse".

I have made a chart with the needed cap parts for building one run of Archon with the pre Crius BPOs and the post Crius BPOs.
My own was transitionen from ME 6 to ME -9. As you can see in the graph my BPO went from allmost perfect to pretty useless and now needs 8 capital parts more to build an archon than before.

Archon capital parts comparison

The comparison also shows that every single archon BPO no matter what ME level got worse. But basicly the closer you had researched it to 10, the more you got shafted because only the former ME 10+ BPOs are of any use now.

So my BPOs got functionally worse, and not only a small bit... Any comments CCP?

The reason for this mess is pretty obvious. Its the new calculation formula that rounds up in combination with low part numbers of small capital ships.

I feel your pain. Please pass it back to CCP by unsubbing your industry toons
My freighter BPOs are all virtually worthless they were great at ME 4 before the patch now they are at ME 8%.
So now I am years in research behind top efficiency (and a few billion in isk) and the cost to build went up.
So instead of being useful for production, or invention or even selling the BPCs now I have a bunch of near useless freighter BPOs.
Thanks CCP My industry alt is getting unsubbed...and once I run out of ships then my pvp toons will follow


I don't know if you guys are really that clueless for the supposed level of engagement with the indy side of the game you claim to have, or if you're trolling.

I'll bite; two questions for you:
- Do you think it's only your special snowflake BPCs/BPOs that have changed, or everybody's?
- Do you think market will continue to sell at pre-Crius prices forever and ever, or maybe just maybe, there's a chance that it'll start reflecting new costs-to-manufacture, and margins will be restored? Like virtually every big ticket item that has seen manufacturing cost changes?

If you still decide to leave the game, thank you for doing so.

First question:
No, I totally understand everyone else who has BPOs got the exact same nerf. That isn't the point. The main point is some people now have nearly impossible to overcome advantages in production of capital ships. Before the patch all of my freighter BPOs were optimal and competitive compared to everyone else. Also the time and cost to improve BPOs was still significant roughly a month per single level of research and the isk cost was relatively low. The main cost was time you spent not using your BPO. Now the costs are astronomically high in both isk and time to improve your BPO to the optimum level. Also any new players are almost totally excluded from ever being able to compete in these markets. They would need several years to research all of the required capital part BPOs and then several more years to research all of the actual capital ship BPOs not to mention the tens of billions of isk for the BPOs and additional tens of billions of isk for the research costs. It would take decades to make your isk back off such an endeavor
Second Question:
You are indeed correct there will be a new equilibrium price for everything after the changes. Except for the margins are now noticeably different for different people. So players with access to an Outpost will have a major increase in efficiency and their margins will be much higher. I also think everything will eventually go up in price due to the reprocessing nerf. Although, maybe the new isk sinks will control inflation better. I could be wrong.
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#435 - 2014-07-28 03:29:07 UTC
Nolan Kotulan wrote:
Capt GoodDeal wrote:

NP problem at all for a forum alt who never has or never will research a thing.


That is not the point.
The point is, what is logical?

If something is badly designed and illogical, are you really saying we have to keep it as it is just to keep YOU "happy"?

Oh, wait...

Adapt or not, it's up to you!


Therein lies the problem there is not adaption. One day you have the same costs to build an expensive thing and the next day you are hopelessly behind. What is the answer to that question?
You lose in the market as in your costs now are more than the market rate for the item. So to keep building you would lose money.
So the logical answer is to get out of that business.
Follow that to the next step. Lots of people invested in Large ship building got screwed over massively and will likely 'quit the market'

Also the previous system was very logical. It was just really complicated. That was pretty much why I liked it. People didn't understand it very well so I could exploit that and make isk from them.
Now we are dumbing down EVE to the WOW player level.
Belle Wayrest
Liber8
Common-Denominator
#436 - 2014-07-28 06:37:12 UTC
What about those characters who were training Drone avionics V, when they reduced the skill to lvl III?
Since to train lvl V, the rquirement is lvl IV my skill train got stopped and lost 3 days worth of training.
Doesnt sound much, but when you use dual training, it is quite a kick, especially if you are less than 3 months old.
Gliese Casserres
Confused Bunnies Inc
#437 - 2014-07-28 08:30:45 UTC
Blueprint filtering desperately needs a T2 copy filter everywhere, especially on the industry window. Please add.
Dally Lama
Doomheim
#438 - 2014-07-28 10:47:16 UTC
Are people really arguing that ME 10 should not be better than ME 8?

Of course it should be. If ME 8 BPOs were offering the same result as ME 10 BPOs in the past, that is insanely stupid and it's a good thing they changed it.

Seems you guys are complaining that it will take time and $$$ investment to get the BPO to 10. That makes sense... why should it be received for free? Other players made the effort to get it to 10, you should too.



Noticed that the job cost installation increases apply to starbases too. I think this is rather illogical and further hurts the motivations to use a starbase. In my opinion it should be adjusted so starbases only require the base cost, and never increased based on system activity.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#439 - 2014-07-28 13:04:39 UTC
The runs per copy limit on modules is ridiculously low and all over the place for different modules. What was wrong with keeping them at 300 runs or even raising that number now that maxrun does not affect inventions?

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#440 - 2014-07-28 13:46:06 UTC
Galmalmin wrote:
Damjan Fox wrote:
Well, Crius.....

I understand the concept and need of an isk-sink in the game. I also can see CCPs intention behind it, to force players to spread out over the universe.

Regards, Damjan....


I disagree.

IF... CCP has the intention of forcing players to "spread out", that intention is flat WRONG in a "Sandbox".

Just give us, the players, the functionality and let US figure out how to use it as WE want... not how the producers imagined it.
Just because a producer/coder imagined a functionality to be used in a specific way and their bosses determine that it SHALL be so does not make them correct/right.
My imagination and desires are NOT the imagination and desires of CCP staff.
My imagination is not the imagination and desires of other capsuleers either.

My displeasure with CCP goes back to the fact that CCP does not seem to understand that for every "Nerf", "Disparity", "Imbalance" or similar situation, WE, the Capsuleers, have found a work around or strategy to combat it. Yes, I will concede that the work arounds or strategies we came up with were/are not optimal, however LIFE is not fair and LIFE requires that YOU adapt or perish.

Galmalmin, you say, what do you refer to?

One example of many... back when the NYX was "da bomb", all alot of people could do was whine to CCP about the disparity of the NYX. However, some (and I was not an active participant in this, just in a corp that participated in it) came up with a way to combat that ship when it Hot Dropped somewhere and started to wreak havoc. The strategy derived by players involved specific types and numbers of ships being deployed there to kick that NYX's ass. It worked, NYX's were starting to become irrelevant as a surprise weapon.
However, due to the whining in forums and threats of unsubscribing, the NYX was nerfed. The time and effort by players to figure out a way to combat that sucker... wasted.

Galmalmin, where are you going with all this you ask?

CCP has a long history of changing the rules when a number of whiners do what they do best. The effect, usually, is that those who figured out how to improvise, adapt and overcome had their efforts negated by the rules change. Their time and effort was wasted by CCP.

Many of us come to EVEOnline, "not because it is easy, but because it is hard" (thank you President John F. Kennedy). We came because we have to struggle to get to a point where we do not have to struggle as hard we did when we started. We did not want to have things just handed to us. We wanted to feel a sense of accomplishment, a sense of achievement, a sense of value to what we did. There are plenty of venues out there where you can just brainlessly go hither and yawn to get a higher score. We did not come to EVEOnline for that. If a player did, they need to be shown the door and told thanks, but no thanks.

If the average IQ for man is currently around 100, mine is above that. Depending upon which IQ test is used, I score an average of 140. Many people are higher than I and I do not claim to be the smartest one around. Why am I mentioning this? I like my brain to be challenged, be it by what I read, what I do for work or what I do for play. Yes, there are times I just want simple and for that, I play solitaire. I don't come to EVEOnline for simple.

Yes, I understand how a business works and that most businesses want/need to expand, create more profit and so on. Should CCP be the same as other internet gaming companies? Should it cater its business model to the lowest common denominator?
I say no.
I say, stop catering to the whiners.
I say, stop changing the rules.
I say let us, the Capsuleers, figure out workarounds and or strategies for the disparity of LIFE.
I have NOT read the Lore associated with New Eden, but I can not imagine in it that all races are exactly equal in technological ability and that they produce items that are exactly equal to the other races similar/equivalent items. Why create and equal playing field across the board? Why stifle the imagination and/or creativity of your players?
Yes, CCP should fix outright programing bugs and modify/change code to enable functionality in this "Sandbox" as well as create new functionality that WE, the Capsuleers, figure out the best use of, for us. You may choose to use that functionality different than another. To me, that was the main draw to this game, the promise of "Sandbox". Are we getting closer to it? Are we?

CCP, please stop thinking that your specific imagination as to how to apply functionality in the game is the only way it should be. Please stop trying to stifle our imaginations.

Galmalmin


Nice post man. I pretty much said the same thing on the latest devblog:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4844132#post4844132

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!