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Crius Feedback

First post First post
Author
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#341 - 2014-07-24 17:53:27 UTC
Well, Crius.....
My anticipation was as big as my disappointment is now.

Crius brought us some good changes (new UI, standardization of ME / TE levels) but one part of it, is just shockingly bad game design. The system cost index.

I understand the concept and need of an isk-sink in the game. I also can see CCPs intention behind it, to force players to spread out over the universe. But the way this was approached is just wrong. The system cost index is an unnecessary, obscure and ill-conceived game mechanic.

"Adapt to the game" is nice and all, but forcing people to relocate their base of operations/manufacturing every time the system cost index changes and eats up all the profit margin, ads no value to the gameplay and is just unnecessary and obstructive.

Relocating your POS and all the modules every month sound like a lot of fun, right?

I don't mind paying installation costs, i don't care about increased material need on blueprints (because it was increased for all of us). And yes, the market will adapt and prices will settle down.

But forcing this unpredictable and arbitrary variable upon the core element of your entire game, will do you more harm than good, CCP.



Regards, Damjan....
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#342 - 2014-07-24 18:13:17 UTC
Damjan Fox wrote:
Well, Crius.....
My anticipation was as big as my disappointment is now.

Crius brought us some good changes (new UI, standardization of ME / TE levels) but one part of it, is just shockingly bad game design. The system cost index.

I understand the concept and need of an isk-sink in the game. I also can see CCPs intention behind it, to force players to spread out over the universe. But the way this was approached is just wrong. The system cost index is an unnecessary, obscure and ill-conceived game mechanic.

"Adapt to the game" is nice and all, but forcing people to relocate their base of operations/manufacturing every time the system cost index changes and eats up all the profit margin, ads no value to the gameplay and is just unnecessary and obstructive.

Relocating your POS and all the modules every month sound like a lot of fun, right?

I don't mind paying installation costs, i don't care about increased material need on blueprints (because it was increased for all of us). And yes, the market will adapt and prices will settle down.

But forcing this unpredictable and arbitrary variable upon the core element of your entire game, will do you more harm than good, CCP.



Regards, Damjan....


+1. I don't mind moving around, but I keep my BPO's locked down in a corp hangar. I don't want to have to deal with locking them all down (100,000+ clicks taking 3-4 hours of constant clicking) and then doing the reverse to unlock them to move around.

.

Bertrand Prout
Sunday Sessions
#343 - 2014-07-24 18:44:40 UTC
Is it possible to increase the experimental lab capacity? Make it match the other labs and I'll be a happy panda. Right now I have to juggle a lot with the mats and on top of the fact that RE jobs can reintroduce mats from failed jobs, it's really annoying to deal with.
Anders Madeveda
Usque Ad Mortem
#344 - 2014-07-24 18:49:38 UTC
2 days post Crius release;

4 Industry toons sold, 4 Industry toons mothballed, 3 subscriptions cancelled.

No tears just not worth playing industrialist anymore guess I'll have a labotomy and join Goons.
Aluka 7th
#345 - 2014-07-24 19:13:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Few bugs here and there, interface has some room for improvement when dealing with big number of prints and jobs.

Crius is great, much better then I expected. I like opening of 0.8+ sec systems to POS deployment, infinite slots and dynamic of industry index and teams. And I'm not saying that because I'm drunk on vacation, quite opposite, I'm drunk because Crius is here. For last 2 months I was getting shload of prints to ME or TE 10, sometimes waking up in middle of the night and now my better half is so happy I' dont have to do that anymore that I+m drunk.
Keyran Tyler
Bionesis Technologies
#346 - 2014-07-24 19:17:02 UTC
beatlebutt wrote:
ME Cap research cost. Has anyone looked at that? (all from High Sec Station far far away from Jita)

To take a Charon from 9% to 10% ME is 1.6 billion isk and takes 257 day.

to take a Charon from 0% to 1% ME is only 1.1 mil and 4 hours 22 min 30 sec.

to take a Charon from 0% to 10% ME is 2.79billion isk and takes 444 days.

Nidhoggur from 8% to 9% ME is 507mil and 108 days from 8% to 10% ME is 1.711 billion and 365days

Is this some evil scheme to keep is playing 1-2 years from now so our researches are finally done?

EDIT: even the sub parts have ridiculously long times. Capital Launcher Hardpoint, from ME0 to ME 10% is 133 days. (cost only 12.5 mil)


I noticed that, these numbers are just insane.

Paying a charge in my own POS is also something difficult to digest. Your design is wrong on this case and my production/search line is stopped until improvement.

Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2014-07-24 19:25:31 UTC
Xela Kcaneoh wrote:

Way wrong. You just said that humans manage assembly lines nowadays. We're talking about the future, where humanoids are not needed to manage or maintain machinery. There is no legitimate reason why the ships / POS couldn't be maintained by robots, droids, nanobots, A.I., whatever. In WH space we fight Sleepers, ancient machines that have reconstructed and maintained themselves for millenia (thousands of years). We have collected their kibbles'n'bits for a good long while now. We have the technology, we can rebuild him.

I just said that you should read game's lore, if you haven't did it yet. It's by vision of game world's setting writer that ships have crews in Eve, not just me speculating about this. It is how this world of future imagined by its creator.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Marc Rene
Doomheim
#348 - 2014-07-24 19:53:59 UTC
Are costs to install meant to be changing every 5 mins or so?

I installed 3 lost of 10 x hobgoblin 2 @ 12,824isk, another guy in the corp did the same, when my alt logged on to install some more the price had gone up to 14,181isk for the same job.

How are you meant to keep track of things when the costs move this quickly?
Marlinara
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#349 - 2014-07-24 21:01:20 UTC
Keyran Tyler wrote:
beatlebutt wrote:
ME Cap research cost. Has anyone looked at that? (all from High Sec Station far far away from Jita)

To take a Charon from 9% to 10% ME is 1.6 billion isk and takes 257 day.

to take a Charon from 0% to 1% ME is only 1.1 mil and 4 hours 22 min 30 sec.

to take a Charon from 0% to 10% ME is 2.79billion isk and takes 444 days.

Nidhoggur from 8% to 9% ME is 507mil and 108 days from 8% to 10% ME is 1.711 billion and 365days

Is this some evil scheme to keep is playing 1-2 years from now so our researches are finally done?

EDIT: even the sub parts have ridiculously long times. Capital Launcher Hardpoint, from ME0 to ME 10% is 133 days. (cost only 12.5 mil)


I noticed that, these numbers are just insane.

Paying a charge in my own POS is also something difficult to digest. Your design is wrong on this case and my production/search line is stopped until improvement.



Maine Problem I see there is, not the time but the Cost and that BPOs got worse.

Example Archon ME 2 BPO only had one Cappart as loss. Now with 7% i need 10 Parts more.

And for one part you didn't neet to invest 30 Week of research....
Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#350 - 2014-07-24 21:22:11 UTC
Opsblitz wrote:
So let me make sure I understand this correctly.

I start game 8 years ago,
I spend endless hours to train up and move to Null Sec because I dont want to be a high sec newb or prey on the week and prefer to fight the big boys,
I help fight for PLAYER BUILT STATIONS (not generated highsec,lowsec stations)
I help fight for Null Sec space to build, mine, invent, ect.

NOW,

After patch I am charged a FEE to perform any industry type action in my own pos in NULL SEC and the isk goes to Secure Commerce?
The ALLIANCE that owns the station now lose the Industry job isk to Secure Commerce?
WTF you have lost your mind....I hope this game goes to ****
Why am I out here then if not to reap the benifits of NULL SEC

I should not be charge anything in my own POS no matter what. I pay the fuel, I bought the MODS that go on the POS, Not CCP so I should not have to pay them a dime.

Time to seriously think about StarCitizen now and just dump my $100 a month in there wallets.....

A Very disappointed Vet that thinks it time to give it up.

Enjoy



HERE HERE Bravo! Well said. We pay the F"n Fuel, Mods, time to mine for ice, etc, etc, etc. Why in the hell should we be paying a fee to CCP? Explain that? Please... someone??? Doesn't make a bit of sense. It's just flat wrong.

Let alone the system cost scheme they have going as well. Not to mention the "specialists" that don't really do anything but cost you more isk. The system was already tiered for more complex jobs. THEY TOOK LONGER AND COST YOU MORE. Whether in a POS or a station it still cost you more to run a more complex job.

Virtually no reason to have a POS anymore, unless you want to refine for some awful reason.

Can you imagine trying to haul your crap all over new eden every month to chase the best location to build? Move your BPO's? (That's just nuts, your gank bait for sure.)

CCP has lost their mind once again. Sorry Devs, you have to do what management wants, but even you had to be asking "WTH".


Sbrodor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#351 - 2014-07-24 21:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sbrodor
Kesker wrote:
[quote=Opsblitz]So let me make sure I understand this correctly.

CCP has lost their mind once again. Sorry Devs, you have to do what management wants, but even you had to be asking "WTH".



the point is this imvho.

with these tax drain of every single industry job ccp lower the total isk amount in new eden to balance the isk generated by mission\bounty.

mission and bounty generate isk from nothing and without a lever to take isk out of eve we have the inflection at insane level like now.

with the drain of isk from new eden to ccp they can balance the inflection and lower the total isk in new eden.

balance of inflection and deflection is crius.

BUT

we had problem than pos are stronger than outpost and a single pos is better than 3 outpost of 4 available and cost x1000 time the pos ;D
Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#352 - 2014-07-24 21:51:02 UTC
Sbrodor wrote:
Kesker wrote:
[quote=Opsblitz]So let me make sure I understand this correctly.

CCP has lost their mind once again. Sorry Devs, you have to do what management wants, but even you had to be asking "WTH".



the point is this imvho.

with these tax drain of every single industry job ccp lower the total isk amount in new eden to balance the isk generated by mission\bounty.

mission and bounty generate isk from nothing and without a lever to take isk out of eve we have the inflection at insane level like now.

with the drain of isk from new eden to ccp they can balance the inflection and lower the total isk in new eden.



Ahhhh.... lower mission rewards? That equals less isk in the game.

I know it's not as easy as that. They need to perpetually keep removing isk from the game. It's the fashion it is being done. Industry profits have been squeezed over recent years as it is. This greatly over complicated institution of changes is hitting the wrong side of the player base.

How about a nice big fat Concord penalty fee on any pilot engaged in illegal activity? I like that one. Kind of like being sued by the municipality for police action you instigate.
Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#353 - 2014-07-24 22:00:29 UTC
Quote:
we had problem than pos are stronger than outpost and a single pos is better than 3 outpost of 4 available and cost x1000 time the pos ;D


Have to agree with you on the Outpost side of things. Though they could easily fix that by adding manufacturing and what. An outpost is WAY different than a POS though. It offers corporate offices, and personal hangers for ALL pilots allowed it's use. I would have to agree that they need some balancing in terms of industry though.

This is for another thread though.
beatlebutt
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#354 - 2014-07-24 22:37:48 UTC
Marlinara wrote:
Keyran Tyler wrote:
beatlebutt wrote:
ME Cap research cost. Has anyone looked at that? (all from High Sec Station far far away from Jita)

To take a Charon from 9% to 10% ME is 1.6 billion isk and takes 257 day.

to take a Charon from 0% to 1% ME is only 1.1 mil and 4 hours 22 min 30 sec.

to take a Charon from 0% to 10% ME is 2.79billion isk and takes 444 days.

Nidhoggur from 8% to 9% ME is 507mil and 108 days from 8% to 10% ME is 1.711 billion and 365days

Is this some evil scheme to keep is playing 1-2 years from now so our researches are finally done?

EDIT: even the sub parts have ridiculously long times. Capital Launcher Hardpoint, from ME0 to ME 10% is 133 days. (cost only 12.5 mil)


I noticed that, these numbers are just insane.

Paying a charge in my own POS is also something difficult to digest. Your design is wrong on this case and my production/search line is stopped until improvement.



Maine Problem I see there is, not the time but the Cost and that BPOs got worse.

Example Archon ME 2 BPO only had one Cappart as loss. Now with 7% i need 10 Parts more.

And for one part you didn't neet to invest 30 Week of research....


I have the same problem. I have all the normal carriers..used to be perfect. The Nid was just an example. Now a year and 1.7 bil to get it perfect..to back to how it was before "we won't make anything worse then it was".

BUt when even the cap parts take 133 days... something is wrong.

I want to fix my cap bpos but I don't know where I will be 2 years from now. Before it was 1 ME level per month. Now the last few are ridiculously long. and cost more then the BPO.

And sadly its isk sinking the industry guys..which have a hard enough time with slim margins as it is. I rather the isk sink be on the manufacture cost..easier to pass along.
Xatinni
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#355 - 2014-07-24 23:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Xatinni
beatlebutt wrote:
Xatinni wrote:
Being a member of our Alliance/Corp procurement, fitting and contracting team, I got all excited when I read about the fitting changes. Unfortunately still can’t fit the the majority of our doctrines - simply haven’t got the skill to jump into a hull to fit in the first place.

For us fitting guys and girls, wouldn't it have been better to enable us to fit hulls regardless, but disable the ability to un-dock from a station.


well you couldn't open a ship before you couldn't fly. that hasn't change. You can still fit what you used to fit.


Just to clarify

Referring to the new feature

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/coming-in-crius-introducing-whats-in-eves-big-industry-release
“Fit modules without having the required skills
With this change, those preparing ships for others can do so without having the skills required to fit the modules. Skills are still needed to online modules.”

Example
I've trained and enjoy flying one Factions Bomber. I have no interest in flying, un-docking or skilling the other three Empire factions Stealth bombers just so I can fit and contract to my Alliance.

I also get a kick out of knowing that if a Stealth Bomber fleet is called, Alliance member's should be able to grab a bomber of choice off contract - if I’ve done my job right.

At the moment I can purchase, contract and fit the faction bomber I'm skilled in - all good, but unfortunately need to ask corpies with the appropriate skill to fit the other three Factions for me just so I can contract them up for others

The new feature is a good feature, but in the example above doesn’t help.
Amag Shi
Perkone
Caldari State
#356 - 2014-07-25 00:08:48 UTC
As a new player, this update is doing a nice job of addressing several reasons why I haven't learned to manufacture anything:
* slots, this bit me even trying to do a beginner mission in my first couple days of game-play
* ME / TE terminology fix is great
* new ME / TE scaling system seems easier to understand; old one was so bad, I didn't bother even collecting materials for others to manufacture for me

It did introduce one new thing that is obviously a mistake. Teams should not be named teams. When I read that, I thought it would be like a mini-corp or new type of fleet or grouping mechanism. What?! It's science and industry labor? WHY IS IT NOT CALLED something related to LABOR? The devs even explain that the cost of hiring teams is due to the Eve universe's imaginary labor-pool.
Mara Kell
Herrscher der Zeit
Pandemic Horde
#357 - 2014-07-25 00:59:12 UTC
After further investigation about the BPO transition to Crius i would like to hear from a Dev, how the picture i have linked is consistant with "no blueprint gets functionally worse".

I have made a chart with the needed cap parts for building one run of Archon with the pre Crius BPOs and the post Crius BPOs.
My own was transitionen from ME 6 to ME -9. As you can see in the graph my BPO went from allmost perfect to pretty useless and now needs 8 capital parts more to build an archon than before.

Archon capital parts comparison

The comparison also shows that every single archon BPO no matter what ME level got worse. But basicly the closer you had researched it to 10, the more you got shafted because only the former ME 10+ BPOs are of any use now.

So my BPOs got functionally worse, and not only a small bit... Any comments CCP?

The reason for this mess is pretty obvious. Its the new calculation formula that rounds up in combination with low part numbers of small capital ships.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#358 - 2014-07-25 01:18:34 UTC
Amag Shi wrote:
It did introduce one new thing that is obviously a mistake. Teams should not be named teams. When I read that, I thought it would be like a mini-corp or new type of fleet or grouping mechanism. What?! It's science and industry labor? WHY IS IT NOT CALLED something related to LABOR? The devs even explain that the cost of hiring teams is due to the Eve universe's imaginary labor-pool.

teams are very small groups of experts dosed up on brain-steroids that give them short days of super-intelligence before reducing them to vegetables
hostile cyno beacon
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#359 - 2014-07-25 01:25:10 UTC
The system index in one of the dead, low-sec systems I use to manufacture finally dropped by about half. However the cost to manufacture has gone up. lol.

Yesterday system index of 10 and an install cost on a freighter was 41.2 Mil.

Today the system index is down to what looks like 3 and the same BP, with same character, no teams, same facility and it's 43.9 Mil.

???

lol

Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2014-07-25 01:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Mara Kell wrote:
After further investigation about the BPO transition to Crius i would like to hear from a Dev, how the picture i have linked is consistant with "no blueprint gets functionally worse".

I would love also to get answers how my t2 BPCs can be percived as "functionally the same" if they actually now require 10% more in materials. And why bringing materials levels on ALL BPCs/BPOs to 10% at once is SO important, that it will justify rising prices on many t2 goods by 10% for ALL players, when simply rising ME cap from 10% to 20% on t2 BPCs could roughly preserve their past material requirments, while still allowing to use the same new calculation methods as in case of others post-Crius BPCs.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link