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Mining barges are still not balanced properly
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Arknos III
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-07-21 07:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Arknos III
While the changes to mining barges in Kronos are quite well done in many regards, the overall balance between barges is not yet complete.

There are three categories in regards to barge attributes:
1) Yield
2) Tank
3) Cargo

Each barge has been designed to excel at one category specifically. As such they should therefore be average and close to equal at the others. This is however not always the case.

It is the case when comparing, say, the Skiff/Mackinaw or the The Coveter/Retriever. When comparing Skiff/Hulk or Procurer/Retriever however, the balance leans to one side.

The Retriever has larger cargo and better yield than a Procurer for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.
The Skiff has larger cargo and better tank than the Hulk for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.

The barges should be balanced so that when comparing a T1 barge to another T1 barge, they are both better at one category and the same at the other two. Same thing for T2 barges, when comparing between other T2 barges.

As such, I would make the following changes:
- Remove a low slot from Retriever or add a low slot to Procurer
- Increase Coveter ore bay to 12k m3
- Increase Hulk ore bay to 16k m3
- Slight buff to HP of Coveter/Hulk to match Retriever/Mack or slight nerf to HP of Retriever/Mack to match Coveter/Hulk.

NOTE: If this better belongs in F&I, feel free to move it over.

.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#2 - 2014-07-21 07:49:39 UTC
Meh, I don't think balancing was done with exactly 1 property in mind. It was rather one property at excellent level, second at ok level and 3rd completely sucks. This way you have hulk with best yield, ok-ish cargo and tank of wet tissue and skiff with tank of BS, ok-ish cargo and worst yield among exhumers. Mack excels in cargo, yield < hulk and > skiff, tank > hulk and < skiff. Same goes for mining barges.

At least right now hulk is not the only answer.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3 - 2014-07-21 08:01:00 UTC
I think they want the hulk to have more tank...

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erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#4 - 2014-07-21 08:05:18 UTC
Arknos III wrote:


The Retriever has larger cargo and better yield than a Procurer for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.


Wrong. Properly fitted Procurer has a little bit better yield than Retriever. CPU makes the difference. Procurer's CPU let you put mining drone rigs in all 3 slots. Retriever's CPU let you put only one cause you need 2 other for Medium processor overclocking unit I. Otherwise you can not put 3 mining upgrades on Retriever. And with only 2 upgrades EFT gives me less yield for 2 retriever's lasers, than the one of the Procurer.

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Maekchu
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-07-21 08:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Retriever/Mackinaw - for solo mining
Covetor/Hulk - for group mining
Procurer/Skiff - when you need some tank on your mining ship.

The balance is fine, since they all excel at one particular role. If you'd "balance" the stats, the way you mentioned, then there would almost always only be one answer, and that would be the Hulk.

The balance is good now, nothing to fix here.

How come solo pvp'ers need to tell miners how to mine? It's not that hard people!
Victor Andall
#6 - 2014-07-21 08:36:30 UTC
Show us on the model Covetor where the Catalyst touched you.

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19.08.2014 - Dinsdale gets slammed by CCP Falcon. Never forget.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#7 - 2014-07-21 08:39:04 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
How come solo pvp'ers need to tell miners how to mine? It's not that hard people!


Heheh, R1FTA iz getting soft, come gank our hulkz!

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Yarda Black
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-07-21 08:48:34 UTC
Arknos III wrote:
Each barge has been designed to excel at one category specifically. As such they should therefore be average and close to equal at the others.


Excelling at one category does not mean it should be average at others. Or close to the same attributes of another ship in its field. You can also say it should excel in one and should be really poor at the others. Or just one of the other attributes should be poor to compensate for elevated effectiveness in one.

I'm not claiming the balance and roles are fine now. I honestly don't know. The last time I undocked miningships in h-sec, I blew up my Orca. Something about safety settings? I think the word "therefor" leads to a statement I disagree with.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#9 - 2014-07-21 09:30:58 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Meh, I don't think balancing was done with exactly 1 property in mind. It was rather one property at excellent level, second at ok level and 3rd completely sucks.
Problem is Hulk is slightly better at 1, and utterly sucks at the other two primary attributes.
Personally I'd rather they gave enough slots, fittings and base EHP (Cruiser or BC level basically) to one of the Barges to fit it whichever way you want, and removed the other two barges (Or rather turned them into new ships since the art assets exist)
That removes this terrible balancing act against each other and makes it all about player fittings.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#10 - 2014-07-21 11:06:43 UTC
No, hulk is better at its primary attribute (yield) just as skiff is better at its primary attribute (tank) just as mack is better at its primary attribute (ore cargo). Secondary attributes are secondary because they are not what each hull is specialized in (for? English grammar iz hard, mmkey?)

Beside nobody says balance means everything is equal and there is always perfect rock-paper-scissors ratio. And apart from strict numbers and attributes if you mine with hulk when you have no boosts and dedicated hauler it's not hulk sucking at mining but you at choosing wrong tool for the job. Best yield/cycle goes out of the window when you spend more time warping between belt and station.

"You" is meant not personally to you Nevyn so don't take it as such :)

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Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-07-21 12:55:59 UTC
It's more of a question of how each barge will be used. Hulks are meant for group mining ops or other instances in which you have a dedicated hauler and aren't in a ton of danger. To limit them to these scenarios, CCP gives them a tiny cargo hold. The Mack is meant for solo play and therefore has a respectable yield and large hold size. The Skiff is also geared towards solo play, hence the larger ore hold than the Hulk, but the tank means a tradeoff in yield vs the Retriever.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-07-21 13:07:31 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Arknos III wrote:


The Retriever has larger cargo and better yield than a Procurer for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.


Wrong. Properly fitted Procurer has a little bit better yield than Retriever. CPU makes the difference. Procurer's CPU let you put mining drone rigs in all 3 slots. Retriever's CPU let you put only one cause you need 2 other for Medium processor overclocking unit I. Otherwise you can not put 3 mining upgrades on Retriever. And with only 2 upgrades EFT gives me less yield for 2 retriever's lasers, than the one of the Procurer.


yep the only downside of procurer is cargo hold.

so if your jet canning or loading directly into an orca Procurer > Retriever every time
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#13 - 2014-07-21 13:43:39 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Retriever/Mackinaw - for solo mining
Covetor/Hulk - for group mining
Procurer/Skiff - when you need some tank on your mining ship.

This is where the OP went wrong. CCP didn't balance the barges based on particular properties, they balanced them on particular roles. The only thing I could see possibly tweaking is balancing out the drone bay size between the Retriever and the Covetor (i.e. make them both 50m^3 or both 25m^3). Otherwise, I think the balance is fine as-is, especially after the most recent changes.

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My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#14 - 2014-07-21 13:46:18 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
yep the only downside of procurer is cargo hold.

so if your jet canning or loading directly into an orca Procurer > Retriever every time

A Retriever has a slight edge in yield on a Procurer when mining ice: drones don't play and the Retriever's third low mining upgrade bumps it ahead of the Procurer.

I think this is a very nice balance: one does better than the other depending on rocks or ice, but neither do as well as the Covetor.

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My Many Misadventures

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Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#15 - 2014-07-21 13:53:21 UTC
OP is thinking from a solo players perspective
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#16 - 2014-07-21 14:16:09 UTC
Arknos III wrote:
While the changes to mining barges in Kronos are quite well done in many regards, the overall balance between barges is not yet complete.

There are three categories in regards to barge attributes:
1) Yield
2) Tank
3) Cargo

Each barge has been designed to excel at one category specifically. As such they should therefore be average and close to equal at the others. This is however not always the case.

It is the case when comparing, say, the Skiff/Mackinaw or the The Coveter/Retriever. When comparing Skiff/Hulk or Procurer/Retriever however, the balance leans to one side.

The Retriever has larger cargo and better yield than a Procurer for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.
The Skiff has larger cargo and better tank than the Hulk for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.

The barges should be balanced so that when comparing a T1 barge to another T1 barge, they are both better at one category and the same at the other two. Same thing for T2 barges, when comparing between other T2 barges.

As such, I would make the following changes:
- Remove a low slot from Retriever or add a low slot to Procurer
- Increase Coveter ore bay to 12k m3
- Increase Hulk ore bay to 16k m3
- Slight buff to HP of Coveter/Hulk to match Retriever/Mack or slight nerf to HP of Retriever/Mack to match Coveter/Hulk.

NOTE: If this better belongs in F&I, feel free to move it over.

.


In actual fact the recent rebalance of the mining vessels is one of very few things CCP has done well in recent times. I do still feel that as the Procurer has a Battleship sized tank it should have a similar build cost/requirement and not be as cheap as it is. Virtual protection from attack should not be as cheap. But other than that they are all in a good place atm.

As regards your proposed changes:
- Retriever is a weak enough ship in terms of defence now. Procurer is highly defended with a large EHP. So neither of your low slot suggestions are warranted.
- Coveter is a fleet mining vessel so does not need a large ore bay. Would enable 'AFK' usage which is bad.
- Same as above for your Hulk suggestion.
- I don't think the HP of the Retriever, Mackinaw, or Hulk need to be nerfed or buffed. Admittedly the Retriever is weak in defence terms but the Procurer or Skiff can be deployed if stronger defences are required. The Mack & Hulk can be tanked fairly well. Coupled with other tactics they can both be flown successfully. See my past replies & OPs for more info on fittings and tactics.


Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Empire's Edge Trading Cartel
#17 - 2014-07-21 17:01:48 UTC
The hulk needs more cargo to make it more usable, atleast enough to make it to where I can through the can out the airlock with max mining boosts. Currently in my book the skiff is the clear winner. It has enough to do just that and tank interceptors.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#18 - 2014-07-21 17:14:04 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
The hulk needs more cargo to make it more usable, atleast enough to make it to where I can through the can out the airlock with max mining boosts. Currently in my book the skiff is the clear winner. It has enough to do just that and tank interceptors.

If you have max mining boosts, that means you're likely in fleet with an Orca. It has a massive fleet hangar, cargo bay, and ore hold for a reason: dump your ore straight into the fleet hangar and you have no need for jetcans at all.

The Covetor/Hulk isn't meant to be used without support sufficient support. If you're worried about your jetcan respawn rate, you very likely don't have it and should be using something else.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#19 - 2014-07-21 17:16:43 UTC
The ONLY thing that needs to be done is to take some yield back away from the Procurer / Skiff.




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Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-07-21 17:17:00 UTC
The only thing the barges need is an actual slot for the permit.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
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