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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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Poison Ivy Rorschach
The Surfin Dead
#201 - 2014-07-17 13:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Poison Ivy Rorschach
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We're throwing around ideas for better bonuses for this skill that we can get implemented for the initial Crius release. How does say 2%/level install cost reduction feel? It ends up being most advantageous in major industry hubs or when using teams, but new players can still compete on price by building in less busy systems.

It is of course not as powerful as the current TQ version of this skill, but the whole point of this change is that it's currently *too* powerful, so we're deliberately trying to tone it down a bit.


Nice start, though I think a bit more per level would make it worth training to level 5 so that the people working underutilized systems should benefit as well. Part of your intent in this expansion was to give people another reason to spread out, right?
Kyoso Shintaro
THI Command
#202 - 2014-07-17 13:27:46 UTC
I may be insane, but what about a 1% per level me reduction. New characters can still compete at smaller items where the effect of this skill would be more pronounced while larger items would require this skill to compete.

This would probably also fix the cap issue where once perfect bpo are now far from perfect
Casey AtThe Bat
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2014-07-17 13:31:04 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

They're both affecting different things though - and the general pattern in EVE skills (that we are trying to adhere to more closely whenever we touch skill bonuses) is that more advanced skills take longer and give lower bonuses. That's why f.ex the advanced weapon skills only give 2%/level - quick to learn, slow to master.


Yet that's 10% on top of the TOTAL damage - and even then most players will not prioritize IV -> V over other things.

I'm not sure if you read my earlier post after my edit, but with your new skill at 10% we are - using you average from the dev blog of 2% - talking about a 0.2% reduction in total build cost for 768k SP invested, with the step from IV -> V being a 0.04% cost reduction.

You really think players would prioritize that skill?


Depends what you're building where. If you're building ammo in the back of beyond it'll basically make no difference. If you're building components for a dread (let's say ~2bn worth) for sale in a major hub and you want to build in-system, you might be looking at a 10% base rate, so 200m, then 10% reduction on that is saving you 20m per ship (ie 1% of build cost).


2% per level of ALL manufacturing and research/science jobs. Also improves effects of teams by 2% per level.

I'd still prefer you refund the skillpoints as you're gutting one skill and replacing it completely.
Arec Bardwin
#204 - 2014-07-17 13:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arec Bardwin
Welcome to 'Tactical Shield Manipulation V' - land Lol

That skill does absolutely nothing and the prerequisite for capital shield boosters was removed, leaving them who trained it prior to that with around 1mill useless sp invested in the training of that skill.
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#205 - 2014-07-17 13:34:52 UTC
Kyoso Shintaro wrote:
I may be insane, but what about a 1% per level me reduction. New characters can still compete at smaller items where the effect of this skill would be more pronounced while larger items would require this skill to compete.

This would probably also fix the cap issue where once perfect bpo are now far from perfect



There is no chance at all they will make a skill have a ME reduction, otherwise they wouldn't have changed the skill in the first place.

Also once perfect BPOs are still perfect under the new rules as they will be converted to the highest levels of reduction you can have. It's just that if you spent a year researching them, they will be the same as if you had only researched them to 10 ME
Valterra Craven
#206 - 2014-07-17 13:54:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We're throwing around ideas for better bonuses for this skill that we can get implemented for the initial Crius release. How does say 2%/level install cost reduction feel? It ends up being most advantageous in major industry hubs or when using teams, but new players can still compete on price by building in less busy systems.

It is of course not as powerful as the current TQ version of this skill, but the whole point of this change is that it's currently *too* powerful, so we're deliberately trying to tone it down a bit.



Or... how about this: You listen to your paying customers. I know its a crazy concept and a tiny bit radical, but hey, trying new things isn't that scary!

(Sorry for the heavy sarcasm) I just don't understand how CCP can be so reasonable on some things and be so off the mark on others.

Eve is not like most games, there is no "passive" learning to them. You pay to play them and you only grow in the time that you play them. But in Eve your paying to play and you are paying for that passive growth.

Think about it this way: How many accounts do you think CCP would lose over night if players couldn't passively grow their characters without playing the game. I know that you have 3 of my subs right now that you wouldn't without this feature. In other words, I'm passively growing my accounts for later play, but I'm not actually actively playing the game to do so. So if I couldn't passively grow my characters and I'm not actively playing the game, then why on earth would I give you my money?

That's why SP value is SOOO important and it is so crucial that you guys act responsibly toward it.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#207 - 2014-07-17 14:08:21 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We're throwing around ideas for better bonuses for this skill that we can get implemented for the initial Crius release. How does say 2%/level install cost reduction feel? It ends up being most advantageous in major industry hubs or when using teams, but new players can still compete on price by building in less busy systems.

It is of course not as powerful as the current TQ version of this skill, but the whole point of this change is that it's currently *too* powerful, so we're deliberately trying to tone it down a bit.



Or... how about this: You listen to your paying customers. I know its a crazy concept and a tiny bit radical, but hey, trying new things isn't that scary!

(Sorry for the heavy sarcasm) I just don't understand how CCP can be so reasonable on some things and be so off the mark on others.

Eve is not like most games, there is no "passive" learning to them. You pay to play them and you only grow in the time that you play them. But in Eve your paying to play and you are paying for that passive growth.

Think about it this way: How many accounts do you think CCP would lose over night if players couldn't passively grow their characters without playing the game. I know that you have 3 of my subs right now that you wouldn't without this feature. In other words, I'm passively growing my accounts for later play, but I'm not actually actively playing the game to do so. So if I couldn't passively grow my characters and I'm not actively playing the game, then why on earth would I give you my money?

That's why SP value is SOOO important and it is so crucial that you guys act responsibly toward it.




but didn't you get the memo??
A phantom dev blog will some how appear stating that they're removing all SP's and instead implementing the sequel to teams... we'll have to bid for TEACHERS to train us in order to obtain levels. sounds fun right? sign right on up.. 14 day trial buy a plex for a tutor.

I agree with your comment.
James Dean Rockafella
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#208 - 2014-07-17 14:13:08 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We're throwing around ideas for better bonuses for this skill that we can get implemented for the initial Crius release. How does say 2%/level install cost reduction feel? It ends up being most advantageous in major industry hubs or when using teams, but new players can still compete on price by building in less busy systems.

It is of course not as powerful as the current TQ version of this skill, but the whole point of this change is that it's currently *too* powerful, so we're deliberately trying to tone it down a bit.


How will this affect nullsec industry systems where fees are set to zero?
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#209 - 2014-07-17 14:16:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We're throwing around ideas for better bonuses for this skill that we can get implemented for the initial Crius release. How does say 2%/level install cost reduction feel? It ends up being most advantageous in major industry hubs or when using teams, but new players can still compete on price by building in less busy systems.

It is of course not as powerful as the current TQ version of this skill, but the whole point of this change is that it's currently *too* powerful, so we're deliberately trying to tone it down a bit.

I would be happy with something like this. It's something that everyone is able to put to use, not just the most active, which has been my point of contention with the time reduction since the beginning.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
H3llHound
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#210 - 2014-07-17 14:19:28 UTC
Greyscale, has your team considered changing the skill to 1% absolute reduction of baserate per level? So from 10% -> 5% at lvl5. or 0.75% or somewhere there

Would that be a too big a bonus again?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#211 - 2014-07-17 14:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Greyscale
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I agree with the sentiment expressed here. 1% per level seems like it was just added as an afterthought.

How about Industry gives 3% per level, then advanced industry gives 2% per level.

Current @ Lvl V = 0.8

New @ Lvl V = 0.85 * 0.9 = 0.765

It's a slight buff to production time, and both skills are more worthwhile for a dedicated industrialist.



Anyone have an opinion on this as an option? Feels a little thin to me but it's entirely doable.

James Dean Rockafella wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We're throwing around ideas for better bonuses for this skill that we can get implemented for the initial Crius release. How does say 2%/level install cost reduction feel? It ends up being most advantageous in major industry hubs or when using teams, but new players can still compete on price by building in less busy systems.

It is of course not as powerful as the current TQ version of this skill, but the whole point of this change is that it's currently *too* powerful, so we're deliberately trying to tone it down a bit.


How will this affect nullsec industry systems where fees are set to zero?


Taxes are zero, fees are still present :)

[edit] Also, what are opinions on doing something now vs leaving this for the initial Crius release and having a proper discussion now about potential longer-term solutions?
Valterra Craven
#212 - 2014-07-17 14:24:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I agree with the sentiment expressed here. 1% per level seems like it was just added as an afterthought.

How about Industry gives 3% per level, then advanced industry gives 2% per level.

Current @ Lvl V = 0.8

New @ Lvl V = 0.85 * 0.9 = 0.765

It's a slight buff to production time, and both skills are more worthwhile for a dedicated industrialist.



Anyone have an opinion on this as an option? Feels a little thin to me but it's entirely doable.

[edit] Also, what are opinions on doing something now vs leaving this for the initial Crius release and having a proper discussion now about potential longer-term solutions?


Its still not worth the SP investment compared to what the skill did before, like not even in the same ballpark.

Delay this like you did the industry changes.
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#213 - 2014-07-17 14:31:08 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
If the skill remains a prerequisite for Capital Ship Construction, which it probably will, refunding it will cause an ENORMOUS mess. So no, I can't see a refund coming.


If CCP keeps the mentality of "If you could fly it then you can fly it now" then everything would work out fine with a refund.

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
Kyoso Shintaro
THI Command
#214 - 2014-07-17 14:35:32 UTC
Celor Ma'fer wrote:


Also once perfect BPOs are still perfect under the new rules as they will be converted to the highest levels of reduction you can have. It's just that if you spent a year researching them, they will be the same as if you had only researched them to 10 ME


You obviously don't build caps. Carriers used to be perfect at an me of 7 or 8. These once perfect bpo are becoming me9%. Coupled with the rest of the changes, it now means that a those once perfect bpo are now only 40% of the way to perfect.

As for the rest, what if it was decreased to say .5% me decrease. This is still an me skill but nowhere near required. The skill would benefit about as much as a POS then
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#215 - 2014-07-17 14:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I agree with the sentiment expressed here. 1% per level seems like it was just added as an afterthought.

How about Industry gives 3% per level, then advanced industry gives 2% per level.

Current @ Lvl V = 0.8

New @ Lvl V = 0.85 * 0.9 = 0.765

It's a slight buff to production time, and both skills are more worthwhile for a dedicated industrialist.



Anyone have an opinion on this as an option? Feels a little thin to me but it's entirely doable.

If it is on the table, then keep Industry at 4%, and then advanced industry could give 3%. I just thought that might be too much of a reduction in manufacture time, as ends up as a possible 0.68x reduction.

I definitely think that would be nice though. Obviously it is not as good as 25% reduction in material costs, so most people are still going to complain whatever you change it too.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
[edit] Also, what are opinions on doing something now vs leaving this for the initial Crius release and having a proper discussion now about potential longer-term solutions?

I wouldn't mind this, although 2 % or 3 % TE per level would be fine for me. It makes logical sense to have advanced industry allowing you to specialise from the industry skill. I just don't think it is good to make it 1%, as then the skill isn't worth training.
Poison Ivy Rorschach
The Surfin Dead
#216 - 2014-07-17 14:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Poison Ivy Rorschach
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I agree with the sentiment expressed here. 1% per level seems like it was just added as an afterthought.

How about Industry gives 3% per level, then advanced industry gives 2% per level.

Current @ Lvl V = 0.8

New @ Lvl V = 0.85 * 0.9 = 0.765

It's a slight buff to production time, and both skills are more worthwhile for a dedicated industrialist.



Anyone have an opinion on this as an option? Feels a little thin to me but it's entirely doable.

James Dean Rockafella wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We're throwing around ideas for better bonuses for this skill that we can get implemented for the initial Crius release. How does say 2%/level install cost reduction feel? It ends up being most advantageous in major industry hubs or when using teams, but new players can still compete on price by building in less busy systems.

It is of course not as powerful as the current TQ version of this skill, but the whole point of this change is that it's currently *too* powerful, so we're deliberately trying to tone it down a bit.


How will this affect nullsec industry systems where fees are set to zero?


Taxes are zero, fees are still present :)

[edit] Also, what are opinions on doing something now vs leaving this for the initial Crius release and having a proper discussion now about potential longer-term solutions?


Delay and do it right for the long term... if you don't mean CCP sits on this for two years before a revisit.

Stil... I think a refund is a better idea, especially if there's going to be a wait. You'll have the time you said you needed and we would be able to choose our replacement skills (which may be this one if you guys fix it right). I don't buy the value loss to SP since this is already going to lower the value of our characters.
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#217 - 2014-07-17 14:42:21 UTC
Kyoso Shintaro wrote:
Celor Ma'fer wrote:


Also once perfect BPOs are still perfect under the new rules as they will be converted to the highest levels of reduction you can have. It's just that if you spent a year researching them, they will be the same as if you had only researched them to 10 ME


You obviously don't build caps. Carriers used to be perfect at an me of 7 or 8. These once perfect bpo are becoming me9%. Coupled with the rest of the changes, it now means that a those once perfect bpo are now only 40% of the way to perfect.


As for the rest, what if it was decreased to say .5% me decrease. This is still an me skill but nowhere near required. The skill would benefit about as much as a POS then


No I don't build caps, but I now see what you mean.


Is that a POS before or after they decided to remove the stacking bonus for arrays? Big smile
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#218 - 2014-07-17 14:44:16 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Just for the record:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
The Material Efficiency skill will be repurposed, stay tuned for more information on that in a future blog.
in the Research Devblog.
Thing is, though, I didn't find any devblog announcing the change of ME Skill to TE Skill


So here is this elusive mentioning of a skill change I keep hearing of on reddit. Literally one line in a dev blog from 3 months ago, never mentioned again in any dev blog, and originally written for an expansion which was then delayed. Good job CCP.

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#219 - 2014-07-17 14:45:28 UTC
Poison Ivy Rorschach wrote:
Stil... I think a refund is a better idea, especially if there's going to be a wait. You'll have the time you said you needed and we would be able to choose our replacement skills (which may be this one if you guys fix it right). I don't buy the value loss to SP since this is already going to lower the value of our characters.

Your not getting an SP refund, just as everyone else who has complained in the past about skill changes, some a lot worse than this one, have also not got a SP refund.

The sooner people suck it up and accept that fact then the sooner we can get a reasonable suggestion implanted.
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#220 - 2014-07-17 14:45:51 UTC
mynnna wrote:
5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions. This actually is the second iteration and I do hope and in fact will be encouraging CCP to revisit it because the original change was more interesting, but let's drop the hyperbole and not make out like it's a waste, shall we?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


This only benefits people who can keep their buildlines fully utilized ~100% of the time, thus only that '1%' of EVE players will benefit. I'm shocked that you apparently don't understand/see this Mynnna.

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626