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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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Aerandria
Cerebus Syndrome
#81 - 2014-07-16 14:41:23 UTC
Just agreeing that for many people the new skill will show little if any benefit and would not have been trained to 5 if at all.

Refund would be nice.
Sanyd Inyoface
Everything For Efficiency
#82 - 2014-07-16 14:55:07 UTC
Why not settting this skill V as a skill requirement for T2 T3 BPs in the bill of material ? This way you can :
a) make sure new players have early access to the most common manufacture (T1)
b) restrict access to difficult BPs (T2 T3) for new players (and untrained alts)

Everyone deserve to be happy.
X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#83 - 2014-07-16 14:55:43 UTC
This was a ridiculously stupid skill that provided no advantage to training it beyond being able to keep up with everyone else who was also forced to train it. There was no tradeoff on those skill points, no decision to make, it was simply a "train this to V in order to function" skill, like JDO V. Honestly skills like that should be reworked. If you were paying 5-25% extra to make **** then you were losing money on manufacturing, the skill was nothing but a pointless barrier to entry.
Naira Isimazu
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2014-07-16 15:01:18 UTC
I agree with the point. If the new skill will be nearly useless for all but supercapital producers, the skillpoints should be reimbursed.
Bocephus Morgen
The Suicide Kings
Deepwater Hooligans
#85 - 2014-07-16 15:23:59 UTC
I trained Material Efficiency V on several characters in anticipation of these Industry changes. If I had known this change was happening I would have not bothered training it all. That is several combined weeks of wasted training, I believe asking for an SP refund is only fair here.
War Fairy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2014-07-16 15:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: War Fairy
If there were still slots this skill would be more useful.

As it stands unless you produce very large things or are at the computer the moment a job finishes this skill is of extremely limited utility.

The simple fact is that a mandatory skill is changing to a limited utility skill.

Refund it and let those who want it buy it with the points.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2014-07-16 15:26:30 UTC
People who can't do math ITT

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Nuko Akato
OpSec.
Wrong Hole.
#88 - 2014-07-16 15:50:09 UTC
Please refund us our sp and let us decide if we want to invest in this reworked skill. thank you in advance CCP
Evan Giants
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2014-07-16 15:54:18 UTC
Don't be dumb, CCP, just refund ME sp and let people decide whether to invest in this new skill or not.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#90 - 2014-07-16 16:05:16 UTC
Hi everyone,

Here are some bullet points:
- Sorry for the delay in keeping up with this, we've been busy :/
- We're aware of the unhappiness being expressed here
- We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops
- We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible, hence the desire to repurpose this skill rather than delete it (reasons: we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time; and deleting and refunding requires a fairly substantial investment to write the necessary DB scripts, run upgrade tests and correct any errors, and time we can reduce for work on things we don't want to do allows us to spend more time on work on things we do want to do; this is an imperfect statement of our position as I'm writing it on the fly to give you an approximate idea of *why* we don't want to do a refund here, but the statement that we don't want to do a refund *is* essentially perfect and out of scope for discussion in this thread, much as you may unfortunately disagree with it.)
- We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't)
- We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two
- We're not delaying the release for this issue; I assume everyone understands that but it's always better to be explicit :)
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#91 - 2014-07-16 16:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week.
Please see that you do. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Nuko Akato
OpSec.
Wrong Hole.
#92 - 2014-07-16 16:22:15 UTC
wow just wow
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#93 - 2014-07-16 16:23:03 UTC
Harsh, but fair. I would have liked a refund of SP for the skill, but what I want in this case isn't necessarily the best course of action for the game. Compare the reduction in utility for this skill with a nerf to a particular ship in PvP -- people who had trained into that ship are not entitled to an SP refund; neither should we.

Look on the bright side -- there is no longer a mandatory 15 day skill train to bootstrap new industrial characters. For people just getting into industry, this is an unmitigated benefit. I'll probably still be training this skill to 4 on any new industrial-focused characters.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Mackenzie Nolen
Doomheim
#94 - 2014-07-16 16:23:47 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two


I know for me, this is a big part of it. I trained an ME skill, I want it to remain an ME skill. As I mentioned earlier, if I can drop a POS anywhere in hisec and get a 2% savings, I don't see how a 15 day train for a total 1% savings (0.2% per level) would be OP. THAT would be in line with the sort of change that happened to drone skills, etc.

Further, one would hope a new industrialist can use the "lumpy landscape" to make up the 0.2/0.4% diff (level 3/4 vs 5) through gameplay choices so that this doesn't remain a "must have level 5" skill but instead is just a small bonus for a long train. If the new "lumpy landscape" DOESN'T make it possible to be profitable without a 0.2% ME advantage, that'd be indicative of far bigger issues.
X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#95 - 2014-07-16 16:26:31 UTC
You trained a mandatory skill, CCP decided mandatory skills are really dumb ideas from a game design perspective and made it not mandatory and you want them to replace it with a skill of equal value? I don't think you get the issue here.
Ripard Teg
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#96 - 2014-07-16 16:28:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops


CCP Greyscale wrote:
- We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition...


These two statements are fundamentally incompatible. You want people to have to choose specializations... then you're choosing one of the specializations for us... so that you don't have to do a SP refund. That's just forcing players through a hoop whether we want to go through it or not.

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#97 - 2014-07-16 16:29:56 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
You trained a mandatory skill, CCP decided mandatory skills are really dumb ideas from a game design perspective and made it not mandatory and you want them to replace it with a skill of equal value? I don't think you get the issue here.


But what are they going to replace it with then? It's a prerequisite for cap ship construction, if it gets refunded people building the lower-end caps would just dump the points elsewhere.
Casey AtThe Bat
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2014-07-16 16:32:29 UTC
Change the skill to this:

1% reduction in manufacturing time, material research time, and productivity research time. Reduce all types of job installation costs by 1%. Effects are multiplicative with all structure, team, and skill bonuses.

This would mean that 5% on top of the normal 25% would give a 31% bonus instead of 30%. The effects would be even greater when you factor in the pos benefits.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#99 - 2014-07-16 16:35:23 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
You trained a mandatory skill, CCP decided mandatory skills are really dumb ideas from a game design perspective and made it not mandatory and you want them to replace it with a skill of equal value? I don't think you get the issue here.

I think people are miffed that it is being replaced with an unrelated effect. It's like replacing the turret tracking skill with a missile or drone skill and going 'meh whatever it's combat deal with it'
Gaston Miromme
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2014-07-16 16:36:04 UTC
I feel extra burned because I just trained up an industry character in preparation for Crius. If this change had been announced along with other Crius changes (While there were intimations that the skill would change, I didn't expect it to become such a niche skill.), I certainly wouldn't have spent the time to train ME to V.

A job queue, while an additional feature, would make this skill more palatable.