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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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RavenNyx
Tax 'n Death
#41 - 2014-07-16 11:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
mynnna wrote:
5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions. This actually is the second iteration and I do hope and in fact will be encouraging CCP to revisit it because the original change was more interesting, but let's drop the hyperbole and not make out like it's a waste, shall we?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

5% more isk/hour? I got ME 5 on two toons, and I can't say that I even have 1 queue going all the time... Where is my 5% more isk? Oh, you're only talking about those toons that are focused industrials, and do nothing else, they will have 5% more isk/hour.

I put just as many skillpoints into the skill, but now I get zero return because I'm not 100% dedicated to industry.

Casual players taking another hit...
Lia' Vael
Trillionaire.pro
#42 - 2014-07-16 11:23:15 UTC
I don't give a damn about time, I trained this because it was mandatory for production. I have like one or two manufacturing jobs a week so I'd prefer to have SP back. If it's not the case, I'll try to petition it and explain it there

I mean it might be good for guys who have only industry toons (or at least indy mains) and have dozens of jobs running all the time but for me this is a HUGE HUGE income loss as I manufacture local pirates' stuff. Now what do I say? Let me do it because I finish 5% faster'?

Not fair, please reconsider this. I'd be happy with the SP refund because people could chose to invest in the proposed skill (-1% manu time) if it's a equiement for cap ship production or something. I completely agree that the game should change to be more friendly towards new players, but in this way it's a pointless aggression to anyone who plays for more than 30 days and took industry seriusly.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2014-07-16 11:31:25 UTC
Sounds like a reasonable change.
Von Reichenbach
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#44 - 2014-07-16 11:46:59 UTC
I would like to weigh in on this. Material Efficiency 5 took over 15 days to reach from brand new character. MANY of us have multiple build characters that each had to waste what equates to half a PLEX. Can anyone explain why a 3x skill that was mandatory is going to be replaced with a skill that no one would waste half a PLEX training to 5. Let alone across multiple build characters.

Just to highlight the issue, I am a small time builder with only 4 build toons. Basically I spent what equates to 2 PLEX, or 1.4 billion isk for my production lines.

This is a BAD change that has not been thought out. Make the change substantial... or give us back the skill points and see how many people spend it on this

"but let's drop the hyperbole and not make out like it's a waste, shall we?" - mynna

I am pretty sure 1.4 bil for skills that I will not train is pretty much the definition of waste...

Von
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2014-07-16 11:49:29 UTC
Von Reichenbach wrote:
I would like to weigh in on this. Material Efficiency 5 took over 15 days to reach from brand new character. MANY of us have multiple build characters that each had to waste what equates to half a PLEX. Can anyone explain why a 3x skill that was mandatory is going to be replaced with a skill that no one would waste half a PLEX training to 5. Let alone across multiple build characters.

because the skill being mandatory was dumb as all hell and is thankfully being killed
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2014-07-16 11:50:28 UTC
and I say that as someone with fifteen characters with MEV
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-07-16 11:50:41 UTC
Oh wow!

I've been following the updates pretty closely and missed this. As the leader of a small manu corp I think I've directed something like 20 characters to train this skill to 5. Sad to see that it's wasted SP for them.

Why not just remove this skill completely? 5% TE is pretty insignificant for most manufacturers, and I don't really see anyone training it past say 3 in its current form to get those extra 2% squeezed out.

This also shows that the changes need to be communicated to the community more clearly. I'm baffled that I'm finding this out about a week before the update when I've been watching things pretty darn closely. Similar situation seems to be recurring with the significant changes to bpo's research and build times that can only be found if you happen to download a .csv buried in a long technical discussion.

Anyway, refund please!
Virgil Armstrong
Sunrise Services
#48 - 2014-07-16 11:56:14 UTC
agreed, I never would have trained advanced industry to 5

either refund, or keep the base waste for production
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#49 - 2014-07-16 11:57:59 UTC
Not an industrial player but as far as I can tell this change seems really stupid. AFAIK ME5 was necessary for anyone who took manufacturing seriously. I agree with the removal of high skill investment to start manufacturing and being able to compete with people who already have it. However CCP should just replace ME with unallocated skillpoints and the new book because even I can see that the new skill is far less valuable than the old one.
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#50 - 2014-07-16 11:59:30 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Von Reichenbach wrote:
I would like to weigh in on this. Material Efficiency 5 took over 15 days to reach from brand new character. MANY of us have multiple build characters that each had to waste what equates to half a PLEX. Can anyone explain why a 3x skill that was mandatory is going to be replaced with a skill that no one would waste half a PLEX training to 5. Let alone across multiple build characters.

because the skill being mandatory was dumb as all hell and is thankfully being killed
Yes I agree, but that doesn't address the lack of refund for players who have spent time training a now seemingly fairly crap skill.
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2014-07-16 12:01:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
This new skill you've put in game is useless to me.

It doesn't matter if my build takes 10H or 9H 30M, I'm still only going to be able to produce 2 sets per 24H cycle.

And I'm going to have it to level V on 3 characters? No thank you.

Please give me the SP from the skill you've deleted.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#52 - 2014-07-16 12:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Summer Isle
I'm going to chime in and agree with the people seeking a refund. I'm a small-time manufacturer. I don't (and with my work schedule, can't) keep my lines going 24/7. Heck, I generally only run manufacturing jobs once a week, at most, because it's a for-fun side-job.

Even for a small-time manufacturer, getting the 25% materials reduction was absolutely critical. Now? Getting 5% faster production is absolutely useless to me.

Give a refund, CCP. The extra 5% to time efficiency doesn't even come close to comparing to what we had before. It's 100% useless in too many cases, and unless you're a hard-core manufacturer, you have no need of it.

Edit :: This isn't a small skill, either. It's 768,000 SP that will now be 100% useless to me. End Edit

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Jeff Kione
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#53 - 2014-07-16 12:10:44 UTC
Agreed, this is not a good change.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-07-16 12:10:45 UTC
This is going to seriously impact the pirate BPC contract market. Anyone who gets a random drop will be able to manufacture the things with perfect efficiency, so they won't have as much motivation to sell as opposed to build.

Just putting it out there.
Amari Jackson
Zacharia Explorations Group
#55 - 2014-07-16 12:18:17 UTC
Whilst I can understand the frustration of seeing a skill changing, this ME change is really, really good. And a lot of this is just bellyaching, because everyone is in the same boat. No longer do you NEED to train this skill up to 5 just to have a chance in hell of being competitive. Now you get to use your brain and strategize. Is that bad?

"What about time wasted???" - well, hopefully you got some usage out of it while it was more relevant, and after the changes, hopefully you'll get some usage out of the new benefits.

"What about the SP wasted???" - well, CCP doesn't refund skill points for things that are still in game and can still be useful. And if you are clever about it, you should be able to make more isk.

If you think having some time shaved off is a crappy skill, then you aren't looking closely. Between this thingie and that thingie and being a little clever, you can reduce say...72% of the build time off certain items? That's useful, isn't it?

Oh, you say it isn't? Whelp, what can I say? vOv
Agent Blackbear
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#56 - 2014-07-16 12:24:38 UTC
So much wasted time. Thx cpp. X
Lairel Dallocort
Hot Lobster
#57 - 2014-07-16 12:26:33 UTC
I agree that this needs to be revisited. I literally just finished training it on an alt using half a PLEX because nothing in the dev blogs said specifically this was going to happen. If you respond to me with "yes they said that in a dev blog" then I'll expect to see a link citation for that included.

I won't be pants-on-fire mad about it if this goes through, but for fairness sake just refund the points.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#58 - 2014-07-16 12:28:50 UTC
I'm not even sure what i find more outrageous, the change itself or the fact that 6 days before the patch going live, not a single dev answered those complaints.

Instead only a CSM member who just happens to be industrialist (i.e. the ONLY group not suffering from that change) chimes in with stupid arguments.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#59 - 2014-07-16 12:31:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Summer Isle
Amari Jackson wrote:
"What about time wasted???" - well, hopefully you got some usage out of it while it was more relevant, and after the changes, hopefully you'll get some usage out of the new benefits.


Training the learning skills was put to use, as well, when you had it. The skills were removed, and SP was refunded.

Amari Jackson wrote:

"What about the SP wasted???" - well, CCP doesn't refund skill points for things that are still in game and can still be useful. And if you are clever about it, you should be able to make more isk.


That's the kicker: the skill doesn't exist any more. Previously, the skill gave a significant bonus to materials. That skill was removed. The new skill, Advanced Industry, has a very small bonus to time. They're completely different skills with a completely different purpose.

Amari Jackson wrote:
And if you are clever about it, you should be able to make more isk.

It's not about being clever, it's about functionality. I'm a small-time manufacturer. I enjoy doing it, but not so much that I want to make a career of it in EvE. It's a for-fun side-job that I only do occasionally, once I've built up enough materials from random collection or reprocessing. Even if I wanted to become a hard-core manufacturer, it would be impossible for me to keep my lines going 24/7 due to my job, which is what I would have to do in order to make use of this new skill.

Prior to Crius, the materials reduction was critical if you wanted to turn even a small profit on items. Post-Crius, a very small reduction in time won't be, so much so that I would have never put the SP into the skill (remember, this is 768,000 SP).

mynnna wrote:
5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions.


It's only a bonus to ISK if you're able to keep your lines going 24/7. If you have any significant amount of down-time, there's no bonus at all. I'm a small-time manufacturer. I generally only manufacture things when I get enough materials to do so from reprocessing loot and spoils. Even for me, before the change, that reduction in minerals was critical.

Now? I'd rather get the SP back so I can put it further into the reprocessing tree or combat-related skills than get 5% faster manufacturing. 768,000 SP is not a small amount of SP to have on what is, to me, a 100% useless skill, and I would have never trained it were it like this before.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#60 - 2014-07-16 12:31:52 UTC
Mardris Fol wrote:
Unfortunately there is far too much precedence for this sort of change.

Two cases:

Scanning skills - 50% of benefit moved from the advanced skill to the base skill. No change over all but I wouldn't have spent months getting the final level of those skills for half the benefit.

Drones - 50% of Interfacing bonus removed and built in to base stats. No change over all and I would still take that but the principle is that same. The benefit of the reduced skills over the baseline is much reduced.

In this case I took the skill because although it was expensive it was 'essential' and now those skill points are essentially wasted. There's no change over all but I don't do enough manufacturing to be affected about 1% or 2% faster production (for level 4/5) and those skill points are a complete waste for me now.

There are some business models where increased volume means increased profit but that's just the mass producers.


Bad analogy. With the scanning skills, you also unlock a T2 module that adds extra value to the same attribute. With the drone skills, the exact same attribute was being adjusted, not replaced with an attribute that is certifiably worthless to a great many pilots (myself included).

This is undeniably the wholesale removal of one skill, because the underlying reason for the skill was removed by CCP, and the addition of a new skill. If CCP removed fighter bombers from the game for balance reasons, players would expect a refund . . . Not for CCP to change the name of the skill to "Drone Shield Recharge" and end up with a skill that increases the recharge rate of your light drones' shields by 20% at level V.

I am not an alt of Chribba.