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Dude CCP really?....... really? A garmur thread.
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Mag's
Azn Empire
#61 - 2014-06-11 08:33:18 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Cearain wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Links are the problem. CCP loves links (extra subscription money) over balance, thus there will never be balance in Eve.


Everything CCP has said about links has been a straight forward assertion that they're going to be nerfed as soon as the technical issues are resolved.


Unfortunately they have said it would be a miracle if the problem was solved.





No, they haven't. They've said it's a very difficult problem that's actively being worked on, in very large part because the exact issue is one of the remaining performance bottlenecks for Jita/fleet fight lag.
You'll have to excuse Cearain, he tends to go into meltdown when alts are mentioned.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#62 - 2014-06-11 08:46:48 UTC
You guys will excuse me for not holding my breath while ccp rewrites 12 year old stackless python written by inexperienced programmers..

(As a programmer that sounds like a ******* nightmare)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Mag's
Azn Empire
#63 - 2014-06-11 08:55:57 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
You guys will excuse me for not holding my breath while ccp rewrites 12 year old stackless python written by inexperienced programmers..

(As a programmer that sounds like a ******* nightmare)
Well if the tooltips are anything to go by and they were working well before, I have to agree.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#64 - 2014-06-11 08:56:06 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Charlie Firpol wrote:

And please buff drugs! Drugs should be the poor mans way to fight HG implanted people.


Drugs are already the poor man's way to fight OGB. Standard Crash is just about mandatory for any missile ship. Buffing drugs though would create a 'potion' situation where everyone would have to use those too.


Not to mention that if links are strong and drugs would be very strong, the combination would be absurd.
NearNihil
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#65 - 2014-06-11 15:36:55 UTC
So what you're saying is that if a pilot uses a faction frigate designed for kiting and a max skilled boosting alt (with a quasi-pricey implant), faction/deadspace mods, high-grade navigation pirate implants and flies sort of sensibly, he can kite well? I would never have guessed.
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#66 - 2014-06-11 21:54:44 UTC
NearNihil wrote:
So what you're saying is that if a pilot uses a faction frigate designed for kiting and a max skilled boosting alt (with a quasi-pricey implant), faction/deadspace mods, high-grade navigation pirate implants and flies sort of sensibly, he can kite well? I would never have guessed.



You guys dont get what Im saying....

Yes if you put isk into any ship with implants and booster alt.... YES it should be fantastic.


However


This is my point.... That ship you put all that isk into should be fantastic, but it should not be invincible! A shipo should not be able to outrun missiles. Especially light missiles. This ship cannot be tracked by any ship that it is orbiting at full speed. Light missiles hilariously run out of flight time as they try to catch up to it. It can do all this while still pointing its target OUTSIDE RAPIER / HUGINN WEB RANGE AND ARAZU / LACHESIS SCRAM RANGE

These ships are broken
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#67 - 2014-06-12 02:07:14 UTC
Wow who woulda thought something with a point range bonus, LMLs, and fast speed could be abused in a 1v1 with snakes and links. Get over yourself. It's a fairly **** ship for fighting gangs with. You can easily kill it with 2 snaked, linked crows anyway.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#68 - 2014-06-12 02:14:47 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Wow who woulda thought something with a point range bonus, LMLs, and fast speed could be abused in a 1v1 with snakes and links. Get over yourself. It's a fairly **** ship for fighting gangs with. You can easily kill it with 2 snaked, linked crows anyway.



Then tell that to the gang of an arazu, huginn, proteus, 10 sniper ruptures, and 20 inties including 10 crows that couldnt catch me as I killed 4 of them....

Go ahead and ask Rzr / CO2. They'll tell ya all about it.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#69 - 2014-06-12 02:27:35 UTC
Rail Corms with TC, Mestasis Rigs, and/or drop boosters? They would need a close range buddy but.... How did the Arazu not SD you off?
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#70 - 2014-06-12 02:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
DHB WildCat wrote:
NearNihil wrote:
So what you're saying is that if a pilot uses a faction frigate designed for kiting and a max skilled boosting alt (with a quasi-pricey implant), faction/deadspace mods, high-grade navigation pirate implants and flies sort of sensibly, he can kite well? I would never have guessed.



You guys dont get what Im saying....

Yes if you put isk into any ship with implants and booster alt.... YES it should be fantastic.


However


This is my point.... That ship you put all that isk into should be fantastic, but it should not be invincible! A shipo should not be able to outrun missiles. Especially light missiles. This ship cannot be tracked by any ship that it is orbiting at full speed. Light missiles hilariously run out of flight time as they try to catch up to it. It can do all this while still pointing its target OUTSIDE RAPIER / HUGINN WEB RANGE AND ARAZU / LACHESIS SCRAM RANGE

These ships are broken


I'm pretty sure Rapier OH web range is something like 70+km with links. It's not the ship, it's OGB, if the playing field was level (everyone had links) then Arazus/Rapiers would be able to point and web you further than your max range.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#71 - 2014-06-12 04:23:35 UTC
Wow you can kill clueless shittards flying inties as tackle for a blob. A linked snaked nomen does that for 1/3 of the price. It's not very hard to outplay a garmur if you're half decent. You can't scram 2 people at the same time. 2 linked crows will kill you fairly easily. You apply garbage damage to frigs and such insignificant damage to cruisers that if they have anyone to peel for them they can easily get out. This is all ignoring any decent small gang comp has some defensive ewar (ie long webs and/or damps in the form of hyena and keres).

Can you kill bads because you have the link and snake advantage? Yes. If you can't counter it, just move on. PvP is essentially consensual so if you don't have the tools to kill something you don't fight it in the first place. It's not different than a super pimpfit HG cyrstal'd and linked hawk. Just because you can't solo it or even kill it with your AF duo doesn't make it an OP ship. However, come back in heretic + sentinel and collect loot. Same goes with garmur.

Garmur, unlike inties, doesn't scale up with engagement size either. Since you don't have the sig reduction you easily get blapped by anything for anti-support even with links and snakes.

Maybe having the same scram/point range as an arazu is a bit silly. However, just because you can use game mechanics others don't have the advantage to, kill them, then claim the ship is OP is pretty unfair. Some ships scale better with links than others

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#72 - 2014-06-12 08:51:05 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Wow who woulda thought something with a point range bonus, LMLs, and fast speed could be abused in a 1v1 with snakes and links. Get over yourself. It's a fairly **** ship for fighting gangs with. You can easily kill it with 2 snaked, linked crows anyway.


So you don't agree that a ship that absolutely ***** over solo pvp while being relatively meh for groups is a badly badly designed ship?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Aine Morchet
Beautiful Space
#73 - 2014-06-12 23:45:16 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Linked, Snaked, faction fit frigates aren't pheasible outside of RVB 1v1's and Hi-Sec wars. Jump that into a gate camp and see how effective it is.

I remember Crow's moving at 18km/s without links. That was OP.


At least around Placid/Black Rise, your odds of hitting a gatecamp that can catch this thing is basically zero.
Camper101
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-06-13 15:13:58 UTC
Hmm...

2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.

My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger.
iu'ra
Criterion.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#75 - 2014-06-13 15:31:29 UTC
#rekt
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#76 - 2014-06-13 17:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: DHB WildCat
Camper101 wrote:
Hmm...



yup 1 vs 1 that went bad when neutral ospreys started repping. but hey i stay and fight until the end... i accepted the challenge and died....

however i did kill the repping bastard lol! http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23965133

Besides the rocket brawler isnt broken, its the lml kiter that is broken.


I did however have a fun fight with rzr today...

malediciton, talos, domi, and arbitrator.... I messed up my orbit and the talos warped.... they then staggered correctly and I got neuted by the domi, lost my point on the malediction.... it warped. Then domi and arby warped 8(
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#77 - 2014-06-14 02:25:34 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Hmm...



yup 1 vs 1 that went bad when neutral ospreys started repping. but hey i stay and fight until the end... i accepted the challenge and died....

however i did kill the repping bastard lol! http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23965133

Besides the rocket brawler isnt broken, its the lml kiter that is broken.


I did however have a fun fight with rzr today...

malediciton, talos, domi, and arbitrator.... I messed up my orbit and the talos warped.... they then staggered correctly and I got neuted by the domi, lost my point on the malediction.... it warped. Then domi and arby warped 8(



Seems like a fair fight.

You have off grid boosting alt.

He had neutral repper.

Yay him.

That link for your kill doesn't seem to be working.

How's that ship v.s. sentry drones?
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#78 - 2014-06-14 04:25:36 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
God's Apples wrote:
Wow who woulda thought something with a point range bonus, LMLs, and fast speed could be abused in a 1v1 with snakes and links. Get over yourself. It's a fairly **** ship for fighting gangs with. You can easily kill it with 2 snaked, linked crows anyway.


So you don't agree that a ship that absolutely ***** over solo pvp while being relatively meh for groups is a badly badly designed ship?


No, I'm saying it's a broken OP ship for a 1v1, but for real pvp that involves fighting multiple vs one the garmur is pretty **** imo and I would prefer to use a more interesting, more damage heavy, more aggressive kind of ship to fight a gang with. It's similar to the cruor with 2 a-type nos and dual rep or a linked pimpfit hawk with crystals in. It's essentially unbeatable 1v1, but it's much less strong when fighting 1v5 or 1v10. If you've ever tried to solo a gang in a crow you will understand. You can't die, but it's extremely difficult, assuming your enemies have any level of competence, to secure a kill purely based on how long it takes to kill ****.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#79 - 2014-06-14 17:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Cearain wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Links are the problem. CCP loves links (extra subscription money) over balance, thus there will never be balance in Eve.


Everything CCP has said about links has been a straight forward assertion that they're going to be nerfed as soon as the technical issues are resolved.


Unfortunately they have said it would be a miracle if the problem was solved.





No, they haven't. They've said it's a very difficult problem that's actively being worked on, in very large part because the exact issue is one of the remaining performance bottlenecks for Jita/fleet fight lag.


Then the notes from csm are false. Here is a quote from the December 2012 meeting:


"Seleene brought up the topic of off-grid boosting, and Fozzie responded that technical limitations were the only reason it continued to exist. Fozzie could not comment on when this issue would be resolved and stated that “one day Veritas will come up to me and say ‘hey I fixed off-grid boosting’”, but he had no idea on a potential timeframe for this sort of miracle."

Now its true that the more recent comments from ccp have been slightly more promising. And in fact they keep saying they intend to do this. However, what doesn't make sense is that they supposedly balanced links already. There is no question that requiring them on grid is going to be a nerf.

So if they think they are currently balanced are they going to be out of balance when they need to be on grid and so they will then be buffed?

Or can ccp admit they are not balanced now, and they will be when they finally are on grid?

If they admit they are unbalanced, how long do we need to wait for this to get balanced?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Justin Cody
War Firm
#80 - 2014-06-14 17:41:14 UTC
Voyager Arran wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I'm not able to pick out how the garmur is OP. All these people waffling on about the missiles applying perfect damage I ask to you *how*? Do you know how missiles work at all? Even rockets can be speed tanked.


You ever notice how Crows are ******* everywhere but nobody flies Raptors?


because raptors are the scram ceptor...being the dps version. They try too hard to be assault frigates with extra warp speed...and frankly not enough dps to justify it.

Also maledictions are everywhere. Not quite as uniquitous is the Ares and the Stiletto is used similarly to the crow. You will notice a similar lack of use of the Crusader, Claw and Taranis. They all have to get in close to be useful and that is primarily where interceptors die (in web range).

The trouble comes in the form of roles. That is when they were re-balancing the interceptor class they couldn't have those ships overshadow assault frigates. So of course they lack the ability to tank and gank in the same manner. Interceptors are flimsy for the most part. They have enough hit points to sustain limited fire. So of course the issue with the DPS versions is that they *try* to be assault frigates but honestly aren't.

What to do? Well honestly nothing at this point. It is more a question of sucking it up. The DPS ones have their use, thought he crusader has no more effective tank than the more balanced slot layout of the malediction...it can kick out around 250 dps with conflagration crystals. I'm not saying you don't pay for it...but it is close to the taranis in effectiveness.

The raptor does OK dps...but is unfairly saddled with an un-bonused missile launcher. It can get decent ehp...6-8K or so depending on links and rig combinations. It isn't stellar and the new ship model doesn't ACTUALLY make it better. It just looks better now.