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Dude CCP really?....... really? A garmur thread.
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Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-06-07 13:42:09 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Sooooo, here's what a Garmur can look like before links, imps and drugs. Just with some bling, which certainly is in the price range if you wanna fly this jewel.

Derp



Now show me the ship that isn't a Garmur, Gallente or Minmatar Recon / EAF that can catch this one. (Which are basically the ship a Garmur pilot should know are a threat to him.)

And here is how it could look as a Fleet Tackler in 0.0.

Damn, actually, i might get me one now. Or 2.



The small amount of bling in that derp fit really doesn't seem to make enough of a difference. I'm getting very near those same stats with my skills, t2, before links & plants.

The fleet fit could certainly hold anything in place for a gang that was a good dozen jumps out. I would feel good about droping plenty of isk onto a concept like that for being a star "content bringer" in a corp.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-06-07 13:51:08 UTC
if thats op how come the crow isnt? Ship is very strong but fine imo.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#23 - 2014-06-07 13:53:44 UTC
The guy is talking about spending like 300 mil on a frigate. It's not OP if it needs that much hilariously priced stuff on it.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2014-06-07 14:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
The guy is talking about spending like 300 mil on a frigate. It's not OP if it needs that much hilariously priced stuff on it.

Not only that, but you also have to pay ALOT for the frig. So i would expect it to be pretty good for that price. Currently, it costs around 222 million isk in Amarr (i know the price on it will go down).

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#25 - 2014-06-07 15:08:00 UTC
It might take 6 months but it will eventually settle around the 40-50mil mark. Calling it now.

If you get a garmur or orthrus, just sell it now for anything you can get. Current sells are for 800mil, I'd just part with mine for 500mil and deal with it. The price will collapse practically overnight once the new wave of spawns comes.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-06-07 16:35:26 UTC
The problem is warfare links.
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#27 - 2014-06-07 16:47:43 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
if thats op how come the crow isnt? Ship is very strong but fine imo.


aahh i dunno. Maybe the +50 DPS, +300-500m/s and the superior missile speed over the Crow?
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#28 - 2014-06-07 16:51:51 UTC
What are u all talking about? My Garmur does (snakes no links) 6400m/s Cold and stable. 42km Point Cold. 50km+ range. 145 DPS.

Garmur will probably be a bit cheaper and the only bling is the faction disruptor.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#29 - 2014-06-07 19:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Maeltstome wrote:
A linked Rail-Devil is 1 good old fashioned slight shot away from grabbing it, thanks to 10 second MWD cycles another frig can get a nice overheat and catch faster frigs (p.s. MWD cycles being shorter for 1MN variants seems like a really beneficial change IMO) - the extreme range the garmur will operate at is the only thing that might give trouble - but if we rewind and imagine you are in another frig 40+km away and MWD'ing directly away from the garmur, the light missiles wont even touch you. A 10 sec MWD cycle on most t1 frigs moves them over 35KM.

I'm not denying its a good ship, or that Wildcat will roll with expensive stuff, but i'd say the performance quoted from this frig is almost prohibitively expensive given how often it will die. A Mach has a decent chance to crash a gate or 1-shot an unexpected tackler which gives it the 9-lives of a cat in real PVP environments, making it worth the cost.

If we're talking about using this as a tackler, why not just use an EAF and save cash. That 130dps means nothing against something bigger than a frig. Cruisers will have time to de-aggress and jump and if you win a 1v1 fight with a frig (which it wont win against the plethora of Dual-Rep AB frigs there are) then you've still spent a few billion isk just to kill another frigate... It'll work once then the guy brings his rapier alt and grabs the easiest 1bil KM of his Eve career. Good luck using a single rapier against a Mach.

As an addendum I'll say this: I think light missiles need a range adjustment. Its too far right now. This ship is definitely powerful but i think it's hull size balances out its use in real situations.


No, the DD will never catch it.

When the DD can apply a web, the Garmur can already apply a Scram. Either the DD is AB fit, then it will never, ever, in the entire fight get close enough for a web, or it's mwd, and the webbed Garmur will still go faster than the scrammed DD.



The other argument brought later for 'if you put that much ISK on it then it should be this strong': Well, go ahead, put 500m into a Breacher, you'll never be getting the Garmur's performance.

The combination of scramrange (hands down, one of the two strongest bonuses in the game) and perfectly applied damage that can't even get outrun properly thanks to velocity bonus makes this ship so strong.
Added the high mobility of the hull, the only limiting factors are it's locking range and it's total dps.

And no, bringing a Rapier is not going to get this ship killed easily. You have enough time between Rapier on grid and Rapier applying webs to safely warp off.


Edit: What has been the Dramiel in the days of olde will most likely be the Garmur once it's availability is becoming better.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#30 - 2014-06-07 22:27:26 UTC
Links are the problem. CCP loves links (extra subscription money) over balance, thus there will never be balance in Eve.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-06-07 22:52:49 UTC
It's over 200m. That's really all you need to know to understand why it's not op.
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-06-08 00:28:01 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
Linked, Snaked, faction fit frigates aren't pheasible outside of RVB 1v1's and Hi-Sec wars. Jump that into a gate camp and see how effective it is.

I remember Crow's moving at 18km/s without links. That was OP.



What? Loads of people run exactly that in low sec.. And sure you could get gate camped.. But how often does that happen? I've died to gatecamps maybe five or six times total..

As for people saying those stats aren't real, they are but they are with heat.

The thing you have to take into consideration is how insanely stuff like point range and speed synergizes with lml's.. Thats the biggest problem here, if the garmur had guns you wouldn't be able to do any of that **** because orbiting at 8km would mean you hit ****.

Bring lml's down to the level of small rails and beams when it comes to damage projection at range and the garmur will be a much more reasonable ship. The Garmur and Orthus just show really really well how stupid links and lml's are atm.


Yeah thats the problem with this hull lmls not the speed or the links or drugs or implants or its point range or its officer mods no no really its the missiles.
I just long for the day they scrap them totally and give me my SP back so i can spend it on turrets.

"What you talking about willis"
Garrett Howe
New Eden Shipbuilding
#33 - 2014-06-08 03:20:24 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Frig.....

8.3km/sec before overheating cap stable.... yes with booster alt.
150 dps at 70km.
59 km disruptor before overheating to 70km.


Seriously I speed tank light missiles... this ship is faster than light missiles as it orbits other frigs that cant even lock it while still pointing. I understand the idea behind this ship, however CCP.... its nerf bat time.



Before you say oooo you got owned you mad.........

Since release I've gotten 30+ kills with this garmur. I write this post because this ship is truely op.... needs balancing.


With 3 Overdrive Injector II's, 2 Sensor Booster II's, 1 Hydraulic Bay Thruster I, 1 Hydraulic Bay Thruster II, 1 Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I, 3 LMLs with Fury, Snake/Speed Implants, Missile Implants, Gistii A-Type MWD, Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor, and a single Claymore booster w/ Siege and Skirmish links, I'm getting the same/better stats (171 dps OH up to 78.5km, 60.5 to 71 point). Not a lot of EHP, but if nothing can hit you, not really an issue. Nerf bat may be incoming indeed, no missile should travel 24km/s (note that is about 10 times as fast as the Navy's railgun project according to Wikipedia).
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#34 - 2014-06-08 03:30:48 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
It's over 200m. That's really all you need to know to understand why it's not op.


Price is not a balancing factor. Clearly you need to go back to EVEuni and they can teach you something about Titans.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-06-08 05:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Maeltstome wrote:
Linked, Snaked, faction fit frigates aren't pheasible outside of RVB 1v1's and Hi-Sec wars. Jump that into a gate camp and see how effective it is.

I remember Crow's moving at 18km/s without links. That was OP.

I expect to see literally exactly that buzzing around low sec all the time for as long as the Garmur is this strong. I said in the original thread somewhere that the idea would be to get a hold of the Garmur as quickly as possible and then abuse the hell out of it until it gets annihilated by the nerf bat. As for gate camps, I expect that thing could escape easily from most camps barring horrible luck and spawning right on top of an instalocking scram ship.

By the way any combination of high speed, light missiles, point range, and e-war leads to problematic ships. What keeps the Condor and Crow in check is that their damage is often so low as to be tankable by even poor active tanks so as long as you don't get caught off gate/station you can often deagress and jump/dock before he could kill you by himself. The Garmur adds dps into that mix and that's why it's so over the top.

EDIT: CCP Rise even said that the low lock range of the Garmur was intentional to try to limit its power and went on to add that they may have to do more to it later if it's still too strong. I don't think the question of whether or not the Garmur will get nerfed is even an "if", I feel it's more a question of degree, make your money off of it now.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#36 - 2014-06-08 06:53:19 UTC
I'm not able to pick out how the garmur is OP. All these people waffling on about the missiles applying perfect damage I ask to you *how*? Do you know how missiles work at all? Even rockets can be speed tanked.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#37 - 2014-06-08 11:28:57 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I'm not able to pick out how the garmur is OP. All these people waffling on about the missiles applying perfect damage I ask to you *how*? Do you know how missiles work at all? Even rockets can be speed tanked.



They don't apply perfectly, this is true

But they still outperform all the other long range small weapons by miles.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#38 - 2014-06-08 19:47:17 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
It's over 200m. That's really all you need to know to understand why it's not op.



Your narrow mindedness is hilarious. Classic, can't think five minutes ahead mentality. The Garmur will stabilize around 60 to 70m. It will still be over powered then. Derp goes the tard.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#39 - 2014-06-09 03:56:15 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
It's over 200m. That's really all you need to know to understand why it's not op.



Your narrow mindedness is hilarious. Classic, can't think five minutes ahead mentality. The Garmur will stabilize around 60 to 70m. It will still be over powered then. Derp goes the tard.

Yup. Pretty much. The idiot thinks that first week of existence inflation assisted by a complete lack of Mordus agents prior to farm and prepare for the patch by storing tons of LP is characteristic of the price it will settle at.


Not to mention the idiocy of his opinion. Titans cost tons of money (I can't remember how much they would have cost 3 years ago), that's all you need to know about Remote AOE Doomsdays. Wait, those got nerfed/completely removed in favor of something far more balanced regardless of the price.
Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-06-09 04:09:22 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I'm not able to pick out how the garmur is OP. All these people waffling on about the missiles applying perfect damage I ask to you *how*? Do you know how missiles work at all? Even rockets can be speed tanked.


You ever notice how Crows are ******* everywhere but nobody flies Raptors?