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Star Citizen v EVE

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Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#1501 - 2014-05-31 17:08:31 UTC
Star Citizen implies a vast complexity that this game simply cannot live up to.

A more realistic name would be something like Asteroid Combat 2.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Winterblink
#1502 - 2014-05-31 21:52:11 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
Star Citizen implies a vast complexity that this game simply cannot live up to.

A more realistic name would be something like Asteroid Combat 2.

Well, the hype surrounding it sure is blowing things way out of proportion. I think people are going to jump in when the thing is finally released (full game, I mean) and immediately see that it's nothing like they were thinking it was going to be in their minds.

EVE has the same problem in a lot of ways, and the EVE trailers themselves paint an epic picture that the game is nothing like.

warp drive active
Aspalis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1503 - 2014-05-31 22:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aspalis
Winterblink wrote:
Dorian Tormak wrote:
Star Citizen implies a vast complexity that this game simply cannot live up to.

A more realistic name would be something like Asteroid Combat 2.

Well, the hype surrounding it sure is blowing things way out of proportion. I think people are going to jump in when the thing is finally released (full game, I mean) and immediately see that it's nothing like they were thinking it was going to be in their minds.

EVE has the same problem in a lot of ways, and the EVE trailers themselves paint an epic picture that the game is nothing like.


Much like online dating then? See a picture, build up your hopes and dreams. See the real thing and get sorely disappointed in the end.

edit: As for the EVE trailers, I enjoy them for what they are - cinematic tellings.

Marcus Gord: "Aspalis is an onion. Many layers, each one makes you cry."
Hesod Adee
Perkone
Caldari State
#1504 - 2014-05-31 22:51:41 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:

Well, initially he wanted just 2 million from the kickstarter fund and another 20 million would be provided by private investors if he managed to hit that mark, which as we all know was blown away by the near 45 million amassed so far, to the point that the private investors are no longer needed, and the game continues to gather more money on a daily basis( between 20 000$ to 70 000$ every day), so the total should be much higher by the time the game is anywhere near being complete.


So he has more money than he expected. Does he have enough to produce the game he wants to make ?

Quote:
The use of PBR to make everything look much more realistic, which is a brand new feature from the Cry engine 3.5 game engine and never used in any other game previously, and yes the ships developed by the staff look equally awesome, like this one:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/y763j5ppisnnfr/channel_item_full/IDRISdownfrontquarter_copy.jpg


How the hell does this not look awesome outside and even more so with a full working interior and the ability to board the ship to take control of it


Ok, so he has some graphics stuff. Now what about the important gameplay stuff ?

Quote:
They don't care, the aim is to create the ultimate PC game experience, just like when the original Crysis game was released in 2007 and made even the highest end pc setups it's personal *****, being forced to run the game at low settings compared to every other game out at the time, but still sold in droves as people upgraded to try and run it as best as they could, and the game was used by hardware review sites to gauge new video card performance for a few years after it's release.


Sometimes, you just have to gamble rather than always play it safe, and Crytek made a name for itself since then....


I notice that in the case of Crysis, and the case of Star Citizen, it's still Crytek who made the engine. It's Crytek who made PBR.

Quote:
You wait and see if they can.....It's called a leap of faith and i'm sensing you have none left.


I'm not the one with a ridiculous conspiracy theory:
Quote:
that publishers want to see it fail badly, because it means it cost them more money to match that kind of quality, not to mention seeing kickstarter financed projects fail.......they want to keep control of this industry in terms of how long should the game take to make, how much money is needed, making it run on every possible platform and what features( graphics or otherwise) should be supported and just enough polish to beat out what is released at that time.


What kind of budget do you think AAA games run with ?

Lets pick Watch Dogs as a recent example, because it's a recent release that downgraded its promised graphics quality shortly before launch. $68 million prior to the delay. And they still had to drop their promise about 60 FPS on consoles.

Or there is this article from over a year ago talking about $100million budgets.

SWTOR: “nearly $200 million”. Not including marketing or licensing fees.

They are already spending more money than Star Citizen has. If anything is going to be a threat to AAA publishers, it's not going to be some game in a genre they have ignored because it's too niche, a game that has a budget similar to what they typically spend. It's going to be the lower budget indie titles moving in of the genres the AAA publishers sell games in. But I can't see that happening.
Winterblink
#1505 - 2014-06-01 00:55:12 UTC
Hesod Adee wrote:
They are already spending more money than Star Citizen has. If anything is going to be a threat to AAA publishers, it's not going to be some game in a genre they have ignored because it's too niche, a game that has a budget similar to what they typically spend. It's going to be the lower budget indie titles moving in of the genres the AAA publishers sell games in. But I can't see that happening.

It's actually pretty easy to spend more money than SC has. One word: advertising. Most major publishers will dump loads of money into making sure you can't take two steps without seeing/reading/hearing/tripping over something having to do with a game they want you buy.

warp drive active
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1506 - 2014-06-01 01:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
Hesod Adee wrote:


So he has more money than he expected. Does he have enough to produce the game he wants to make ?


Yes, hence why he keeps adding what would have been optional content otherwise and intended to be released after the initial release of the game.....Seems there's 10 years of content already planned.

Quote:


Ok, so he has some graphics stuff. Now what about the important gameplay stuff ?


Well start to see it with the DFM, but if you're really curious, there's several threads there with developers and Chris with the ask 10 questions for the chairman, which has been going on for months.

Quote:


I notice that in the case of Crysis, and the case of Star Citizen, it's still Crytek who made the engine. It's Crytek who made PBR.


and you're point is?.....It's still makes everything look more realistic and places a high load on hardware no matter who made it.


Quote:


What kind of budget do you think AAA games run with ?

Lets pick Watch Dogs as a recent example, because it's a recent release that downgraded its promised graphics quality shortly before launch. $68 million prior to the delay. And they still had to drop their promise about 60 FPS on consoles.

Or there is this article from over a year ago talking about $100million budgets.

SWTOR: “nearly $200 million”. Not including marketing or licensing fees.

They are already spending more money than Star Citizen has. If anything is going to be a threat to AAA publishers, it's not going to be some game in a genre they have ignored because it's too niche, a game that has a budget similar to what they typically spend. It's going to be the lower budget indie titles moving in of the genres the AAA publishers sell games in. But I can't see that happening.



Huge difference, since all the money goes directly to the developers, not middle men actually managing the project for which there could be several dozens of them across all depts., from graphics engine, to artwork, to AI, to storyline, to physics, to distribution, to publicity like winterblink mentioned below, and they decide what gets into the game and what doesn't base on timeline and release dates and how much it adds up to.


All those people, over the 3~4 year period it takes to make a game, adds up significantly in terms of paychecks just for them, and not the people actually creating the game itself.
Winterblink
#1507 - 2014-06-01 02:25:52 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:

and you're point is?.....It's still makes everything look more realistic and places a high load on hardware no matter who made it.

CryEngine3 certainly did not push hardware adoption like it did with its first incarnation, mostly because that engine was developed to be last-gen console friendly. Crysis was a game that years later people were still loading it up to test whether their rigs would melt at its highest settings, that is not the case with Crysis 3.

Note, that's not to say CryEngine lacks value. It's still pretty impressive, and Crytek has been iterating on its features since CE3 was launched and the subsequent dumping of the version numbering.

Anyway, none of this really matters if their own implementation of the engine sucks. The only thing that gave me enough comfort to give them pledge money after hearing they were going with CE was that Crytek and CIG were basically snuggling up together in order to properly implement the engine's technology and extend it with their own.

If that hadn't have happened I'd have saved my money and spent a bit on marshmallows to roast on the meltdowns.

warp drive active
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1508 - 2014-06-01 02:42:49 UTC
Winterblink wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:

and you're point is?.....It's still makes everything look more realistic and places a high load on hardware no matter who made it.

CryEngine3 certainly did not push hardware adoption like it did with its first incarnation, mostly because that engine was developed to be last-gen console friendly. Crysis was a game that years later people were still loading it up to test whether their rigs would melt at its highest settings, that is not the case with Crysis 3.

Note, that's not to say CryEngine lacks value. It's still pretty impressive, and Crytek has been iterating on its features since CE3 was launched and the subsequent dumping of the version numbering.

Anyway, none of this really matters if their own implementation of the engine sucks. The only thing that gave me enough comfort to give them pledge money after hearing they were going with CE was that Crytek and CIG were basically snuggling up together in order to properly implement the engine's technology and extend it with their own.

If that hadn't have happened I'd have saved my money and spent a bit on marshmallows to roast on the meltdowns.




Crysis 2 was the joke in it's initial release since it looked far worse than the original Crysis, to the point that a patch was made available for PC users that cranked them up significantly, and they didn't need to do that with Crysis 3 as the options were already there for the PC version.


In my case, it'll be hard to run since I use 3 monitors that are natively 2560*1440 pixels in Eyefinity, so with bezel compensation on, it results in a 8014*1440 pixel resolution and about 11.5 megapixels per frame rendered, which is far higher than the 2.2 megapixels on a single 1920*1080 screen so about 5 times harder to maintain the same frame rate on the GPU's.


If you're wondering, i'm using four AMD 290x's in Quad crossfire to power up that much screen space.
Hesod Adee
Perkone
Caldari State
#1509 - 2014-06-01 22:54:43 UTC
What framerate are CIG aiming for ?

digitalwanderer wrote:
Yes, hence why he keeps adding what would have been optional content otherwise and intended to be released after the initial release of the game.....Seems there's 10 years of content already planned.


So you're taking the word of someone who went overbudget on Freelancer when he says that he has enough money this time. Why do you trust his ability to estimate costs after he has already failed at it ?

Quote:
Well start to see it with the DFM, but if you're really curious, there's several threads there with developers and Chris with the ask 10 questions for the chairman, which has been going on for months.

And the evidence that they can deliver on that is ?

Either provide that, or admit they haven't provided any yet.
Quote:
and you're point is?.....It's still makes everything look more realistic and places a high load on hardware no matter who made it.

You're the one boasting about Star Citizens graphical capability. When the only new tech you have mentioned is something they didn't come up with. Which means that the only new tech SC has shown off so far is Cryteks work.
If it's not work they did themselves, boasting about it is dishonest.

Quote:
Huge difference, since all the money goes directly to the developers, not middle men actually managing the project for which there could be several dozens of them across all depts.,

What are you trying to say here ?
That SC won't have those departments, meaning it won't spend money on them ?

from graphics engine, to artwork, to AI,
These departments must exist. The graphics and artwork because it's already been shown off. The AI because they are claiming PvE combat.

to storyline,
Are you saying that SC won't have a storyline ?
to physics,
Ok, you might have a point on this one.

to distribution,
That will be needed if they want a boxed release.

to publicity like winterblink mentioned below,
The design a starship competition is publicity. Probably more if we ever near a release date.

But publicity wasn't included in SWTOR's 200million figure.
The article about $100 million development budgets only talked about the development budgets. Not publicity. Same for Watch Dog's $68 million.

But SC's marketing has to come out of the total they have because that's all the money they have.
and they decide what gets into the game and what doesn't base on timeline and release dates and how much it adds up to.
Unless Chris Roberts has learned a lot from his failure with Freelancer, he needs someone to tell him that they can't afford to implement specific features if they want to release at all. Because delays cost them money.

So I don't see how SC can be at any threat of forcing publishers to increase budgets that are already higher than what SC has raised, even when SC's marketing budget comes out what it's raised, but marketing budgets aren't included in the figures I quoted.

If you want to see how costs have changed over time, look at this Kotaku article. Note: When we do get specific numbers, it is often only the development or marketing costs, which do not necessarily provide a complete picture of a game's entire budget of development, distribution and marketing costs.
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1510 - 2014-06-02 02:56:56 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
Had it all typed out but it got deleted, but in a much shorter version:


1:Game gathered 45 million in 18 months and is still earning 1.3 million a month right now.

2:With all the content yet to be delivered, it'll take at least another 2 years and they might even approach 100 million by then.

3:The game was supposed to be much smaller in scope, but it'll have a lot more ships, the single player campaign is 60 missions rather than 30 missions, it'll have tools for mods and running our own server and 100+ solar systems...Was much less initially.

4:The graphics features are from crytek, but what I care is the final results.....

5:That like complaining about the new Mercedes CLS which is drop dead gorgeous, but it's made from the B200 class platform in Hungary, even though Mercedes is a German company and the car will still sell for 50 000$ a pop in the USA....Deceptive marketing you say?

6:They have depts., but it's run by the developers directly that are also creating the game....no managerial middle men needed or wanted for which salaries have to be paid for the 3~4 years it takes to make the game...Adds up you know.

7: with the amount of detail in the game, even Chris Roberts at PAX in early April hinted that maybe 50~60 ship fights might be possible, but this is still far from being proven and will need some serious hardware anyhow.
Aspalis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1511 - 2014-06-02 06:18:41 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:

I'm confused....So am i a newbie with 11 years in the game or am an ass licker. and tell that to people that have heavily trained into one race, which as I remember is what CCP wanted people to specialize for a long time, when it's hard when they're constantly rebalancing things over and over over the years...It doesn't help retain customers you know?


You are confused because you don't have the slightest foresight to realize just how ironic it is that you call me out as a ass licker. But, oh my, what a lovely pearl necklace you got there. Got it from none other than Chris Roberts himself?

digitalwanderer wrote:

Far from it, I want skills that make looking like training for a titan look like a walk in the park, but be worth that kind of dedication.....The list of what's left is quite small these days as if I push every ship related skill to the maximum of lvl 5, there's about 280 skills in total and since I did all the long skills already I can get there in 2 years, which sounds like a lot but I've been here for 11 years already, so it isn't that much in that perspective.


You will never find that in a computer game. You want something where skills are honed by dedication? Try real life.

digitalwanderer wrote:

Given how patient I've been with CCP FOR YEARS, getting on the guys back for delays of weeks and months is hardly anything to fuss over about too much if he's building something that looks that good.....I'll give you 2 examples from the contest being run to have user created ships in the game the 2 finalists:


https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/115162/team-shard-collective-ax114-boomslang-mk3

Or:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/112096/tngs-team-four-horsemen-redeemer-class-gunship


These are in game renders using the Cry engine 3.5 and yes the interiors are fully functional in both cases and one of them will be in the game....Now call me stupid but I haven't seen anything looking this good in eve even if they were created by the staff directly, never mind outside people doing the work and CIG makes the call who wins it.


What? Are you really making the argument "the visuals are gorgeous, therefore I am cutting them some slack"? Are you stupid for real?

Marcus Gord: "Aspalis is an onion. Many layers, each one makes you cry."
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1512 - 2014-06-02 15:34:15 UTC
Aspalis wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:

I'm confused....So am i a newbie with 11 years in the game or am an ass licker. and tell that to people that have heavily trained into one race, which as I remember is what CCP wanted people to specialize for a long time, when it's hard when they're constantly rebalancing things over and over over the years...It doesn't help retain customers you know?


You are confused because you don't have the slightest foresight to realize just how ironic it is that you call me out as a ass licker. But, oh my, what a lovely pearl necklace you got there. Got it from none other than Chris Roberts himself?

digitalwanderer wrote:

Far from it, I want skills that make looking like training for a titan look like a walk in the park, but be worth that kind of dedication.....The list of what's left is quite small these days as if I push every ship related skill to the maximum of lvl 5, there's about 280 skills in total and since I did all the long skills already I can get there in 2 years, which sounds like a lot but I've been here for 11 years already, so it isn't that much in that perspective.


You will never find that in a computer game. You want something where skills are honed by dedication? Try real life.

digitalwanderer wrote:

Given how patient I've been with CCP FOR YEARS, getting on the guys back for delays of weeks and months is hardly anything to fuss over about too much if he's building something that looks that good.....I'll give you 2 examples from the contest being run to have user created ships in the game the 2 finalists:


https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/115162/team-shard-collective-ax114-boomslang-mk3

Or:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/112096/tngs-team-four-horsemen-redeemer-class-gunship


These are in game renders using the Cry engine 3.5 and yes the interiors are fully functional in both cases and one of them will be in the game....Now call me stupid but I haven't seen anything looking this good in eve even if they were created by the staff directly, never mind outside people doing the work and CIG makes the call who wins it.


What? Are you really making the argument "the visuals are gorgeous, therefore I am cutting them some slack"? Are you stupid for real?



I give them the benefit of the doubt, and as far as visuals go, they hired staff that worked on the CGI of this little known movie called AVATAR, and last I checked the ships in that movie were pretty cool looking.....Just crazy old me.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#1513 - 2014-06-02 15:59:01 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
Aspalis wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:

I'm confused....So am i a newbie with 11 years in the game or am an ass licker. and tell that to people that have heavily trained into one race, which as I remember is what CCP wanted people to specialize for a long time, when it's hard when they're constantly rebalancing things over and over over the years...It doesn't help retain customers you know?


You are confused because you don't have the slightest foresight to realize just how ironic it is that you call me out as a ass licker. But, oh my, what a lovely pearl necklace you got there. Got it from none other than Chris Roberts himself?

digitalwanderer wrote:

Far from it, I want skills that make looking like training for a titan look like a walk in the park, but be worth that kind of dedication.....The list of what's left is quite small these days as if I push every ship related skill to the maximum of lvl 5, there's about 280 skills in total and since I did all the long skills already I can get there in 2 years, which sounds like a lot but I've been here for 11 years already, so it isn't that much in that perspective.


You will never find that in a computer game. You want something where skills are honed by dedication? Try real life.

digitalwanderer wrote:

Given how patient I've been with CCP FOR YEARS, getting on the guys back for delays of weeks and months is hardly anything to fuss over about too much if he's building something that looks that good.....I'll give you 2 examples from the contest being run to have user created ships in the game the 2 finalists:


https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/115162/team-shard-collective-ax114-boomslang-mk3

Or:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/112096/tngs-team-four-horsemen-redeemer-class-gunship


These are in game renders using the Cry engine 3.5 and yes the interiors are fully functional in both cases and one of them will be in the game....Now call me stupid but I haven't seen anything looking this good in eve even if they were created by the staff directly, never mind outside people doing the work and CIG makes the call who wins it.


What? Are you really making the argument "the visuals are gorgeous, therefore I am cutting them some slack"? Are you stupid for real?



I give them the benefit of the doubt, and as far as visuals go, they hired staff that worked on the CGI of this little known movie called AVATAR, and last I checked the ships in that movie were pretty cool looking.....Just crazy old me.


So.. is your only reason being so hyped up over SC is it looks pretty? Really? Because from where I am sitting it looks like they had/are having a huge networking and code issues with DFM. If that's the case, then it won't matter how pretty a game look if it plays like utter crap. But keep telling yourself that pretty is the best.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1514 - 2014-06-02 16:02:42 UTC
DaReaper wrote:


So.. is your only reason being so hyped up over SC is it looks pretty? Really? Because from where I am sitting it looks like they had/are having a huge networking and code issues with DFM. If that's the case, then it won't matter how pretty a game look if it plays like utter crap. But keep telling yourself that pretty is the best.



Latest test build seems to be working fine including the networking, but we'll know later today( yes that's today) if it gets the go/no go for launch this week.
Hesod Adee
Perkone
Caldari State
#1515 - 2014-06-03 01:43:10 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
I give them the benefit of the doubt, and as far as visuals go, they hired staff that worked on the CGI of this little known movie called AVATAR, and last I checked the ships in that movie were pretty cool looking.....Just crazy old me.

Tell me, how long did each frame of the CGI in Avatar take to render ?

Because movies can afford to take minutes per frame. They don't have to render in real time. But video games have to render in real time. 60 fps means each frame has to render in 1/60th of a second. That means doing a lot of optimisation that movie CGI doesn't have to worry about.

So I'll ask again: What is the framerate target for Star Citizen ?


I also like how you responded to
Quote:
What? Are you really making the argument "the visuals are gorgeous, therefore I am cutting them some slack"? Are you stupid for real?

With what equates to: These are really gorgeous graphics.
Thus proving that the answer to those questions is 'yes'.

digitalwanderer wrote:
Latest test build seems to be working fine including the networking, but we'll know later today( yes that's today) if it gets the go/no go for launch this week.

Hopefully they do launch something.
Hesod Adee
Perkone
Caldari State
#1516 - 2014-06-03 01:45:03 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
1:Game gathered 45 million in 18 months and is still earning 1.3 million a month right now.


Will that continue ?

Quote:
2:With all the content yet to be delivered, it'll take at least another 2 years and they might even approach 100 million by then.


Assuming the income stays constant. Do you have any evidence that this assumption will hold ?
Because the people willing to fund development will run out at some point.

Quote:
3:The game was supposed to be much smaller in scope, but it'll have a lot more ships, the single player campaign is 60 missions rather than 30 missions, it'll have tools for mods and running our own server and 100+ solar systems...Was much less initially.


Feature creep is bad. Especially from someone who promised more features than he could implement in Freelancer.

Quote:
4:The graphics features are from crytek, but what I care is the final results.....

So you agree that SC hasn't shown off any new in-house tech yet ?


Quote:
5:That like complaining about the new Mercedes CLS which is drop dead gorgeous, but it's made from the B200 class platform in Hungary, even though Mercedes is a German company and the car will still sell for 50 000$ a pop in the USA....Deceptive marketing you say?


Only if Mercedes claimed they created the tech themselves. Like you are doing for SC.

Switching to italics due to quote limit.

6:They have depts., but it's run by the developers directly that are also creating the game....no managerial middle men needed or wanted for which salaries have to be paid for the 3~4 years it takes to make the game...Adds up you know.

Trying to save money by not employing people in roles that everyone else uses sounds like a very expensive way to learn that those people really are needed.

7: with the amount of detail in the game, even Chris Roberts at PAX in early April hinted that maybe 50~60 ship fights might be possible, but this is still far from being proven and will need some serious hardware anyhow.
Chris Roberts made a lot of claims about Freelancer. Claims he never pulled off.
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1517 - 2014-06-03 01:49:16 UTC
And I didn't know Avatar used the Cry engine "GAMING" engine either for it's effects....Talk about a dumb ass reply on your part...Roll


The talent is there to create something awesome, and that's all you need to know....As for the Go/ no go launch, it'll be made tomorrow after Q/A found a few more critical bugs over the weekend testing, but they've been solved too....It's getting there.
Aspalis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1518 - 2014-06-03 12:44:45 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:


I give them the benefit of the doubt, and as far as visuals go, they hired staff that worked on the CGI of this little known movie called AVATAR, and last I checked the ships in that movie were pretty cool looking.....Just crazy old me.


What good does that do them when CIG are so far from having anything finished to looking like a actual game?

Marcus Gord: "Aspalis is an onion. Many layers, each one makes you cry."
Aspalis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1519 - 2014-06-03 12:53:34 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:


The talent is there to create something awesome, and that's all you need to know....As for the Go/ no go launch, it'll be made tomorrow after Q/A found a few more critical bugs over the weekend testing, but they've been solved too....It's getting there.


Well, I would be lying if I didn't hope for another delay... how I would gloat.

Marcus Gord: "Aspalis is an onion. Many layers, each one makes you cry."
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1520 - 2014-06-03 16:10:02 UTC
Aspalis wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:


I give them the benefit of the doubt, and as far as visuals go, they hired staff that worked on the CGI of this little known movie called AVATAR, and last I checked the ships in that movie were pretty cool looking.....Just crazy old me.


What good does that do them when CIG are so far from having anything finished to looking like a actual game?



Wasn't that the same situation CCP was in before the 2003 launch?, which actually needed another year of patches to make the server not crash 3 times a day.....I call it the year of hell where we had 5~15 mins to dock our ships, as the server needed to shut down, the hot patch applied and the server fired back up( usually a 1 hour process).



So like I said, I give them the benefit of the doubt.