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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

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Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#881 - 2014-05-21 13:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Sven Viko Vikolander wrote:
Some people have given positive feedback like this in this thread, but none, so far as I've read, have offered specific examples of tooltips that have actually improved their gameplay added in the recent patch. Empty praise like "I like it" is no more beneficial than empty criticism like "I hate it," so could you maybe provide concrete examples of new tooltips which have taught you things you didn't know or improved your gameplay in specifiable ways?


The tooltip that tells you that you can select different Active Defense recovery rates (rather than just showing shield regen) on the fitting screen is one specific case that I had no idea about before the patch. Others being the tooltips for sig radius and inertia modifiers stating that they affect probe detectability and acceleration respectively. Both of these I had already known from 3rd party resources, but this is data that was not so readily apparent in-game and so I am glad to have that direct confirmation. I know some very experienced pilots who actually thought that agility/maneuverability/inertia rates only affected turn rates and not acceleration; this shouldn't be an issue with the new tooltips.

Another area is the tooltip that appears for Capacitor Sustainability. Most of the text in the capacitor section has been (and still is) confusing for me and honestly goes over my head, while the tooltip gives a very clear indication as to what amount of remaining cap you will stabilize at. Considering that the recharge rate changes depending on your level of remaining cap and for cap stable fits you will typically need to keep it stable above a certain amount to be actually stable, this is handy information to have. As far as I know, this tooltip didn't appear prior to the patch (though admittedly it's hard for me to remember what was and wasn't there before the patch).

One tooltip I really like is skill descriptions. If I recall correctly, previously you had to manually open each skill to view what it does. Now you can just hold your mouse over the skill and read it that way. That makes things a lot easier for me.

An area that I think is still missing that I would like to see is drone control range. I'm not in a drone ship right now but as I recall this is something that was not added with the new tooltips. This is something I think is very essential due to not being very easy to manually calculate as it is determined by several different things. It would be a great addition to the drone dps tooltip to include the control range.

And though these weren't really one of the things changed by the patch, I would really like to see more module tooltips. Skills are very neat with being able to get the full description just by mousing over them, but for many modules I still have to right click->show info if I want to know what it does. Many mods already have great tooltips and had them even before the patch, but there's many more that continue to just show the name of the item and no stats. While the tooltip shouldn't display everything, the basic stats of a module (or rig) should appear. If I hover my mouse over a Heat Sink, the tooltip should ideally pop up showing the Damage Modifier and Rate of Fire bonus, just like I can see the speed boost on a prop or the resists on a tank mod.

Basically, for me, the best use of tooltips comes from reducing the need to go to something's Show Info screen. The less I have to right click-show info, the better. The Show Info screen should be reserved for getting every tiny bit of info on the object, while a tooltip should be there give you the bare essentials.

And this is just speaking as a relatively experienced player. If I were new to the game, it'd be even more important. This is especially the case in the modern gaming industry where it is becoming more and more ingrained that if you want to know more about something you hold your mouse over it.


Overview/in-flight tooltips on the other hand are something I'm less sure on. While they can be useful for newbies, they can be very distracting for experienced pilots. They haven't gotten in my way much yet, but I can definitely understand people disapproving of them here.

One area where tooltips have gotten in my way personally has been on the Repairshop. There is absolutely no reason to have the big huge tooltips here, I don't need to know what an item does to repair it. These tooltips can make it very difficult to find what you're looking to repair.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#882 - 2014-05-21 14:52:52 UTC
Can we get tool tips on the drones window showing some basic relevant stats for the drones there. Figuring out what drones did what and their damage types and roles was something that took some time when I first started playing. I could see putting some simple tool tips there with that kind of information could make that whole experience better.
Jimmy Prophet
State War Academy
Caldari State
#883 - 2014-05-21 15:14:45 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
I just wanted to say that we are still taking onboard the feedback in this thread and elsewhere. We are continuing to work on improving the overall experience with tooltips and contextual information in general.

I understand where some of the concerns about abandonment of this package of features 'as is' are coming from but that is definitely not an option as far as we are concerned.

We're looking to put out a patch tomorrow fixing some specific defects but also putting in some delay configuration options.



Thanks for letting us know.
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#884 - 2014-05-21 16:07:54 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
I just wanted to say that we are still taking onboard the feedback in this thread and elsewhere. We are continuing to work on improving the overall experience with tooltips and contextual information in general.

I understand where some of the concerns about abandonment of this package of features 'as is' are coming from but that is definitely not an option as far as we are concerned.

We're looking to put out a patch tomorrow fixing some specific defects but also putting in some delay configuration options.

i understand where your "we'll integrate feedback and iterate" comes from but no ON/OFF switch for those is NOT an option as far as THE PLAYERS are concerned

WE WANT IT TO BE OPTIONAL.

almost 900 post, with 90% + of them saying they WANT the on/off, makes it mandatory, not optional.

if you fail to understand that....not much to be done....

now get that pride of yours aside and deliver what your paying customers want
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#885 - 2014-05-21 16:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Eurynome Mangeiri
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
I for one am very happy to have tooltips now, it had been something I felt EVE had been lacking in. Tooltips are a very efficient way of conveying information to players that have become common place in many modern games.

The implementation does need some work, especially in areas where they can disrupt players in hostile situations, and perhaps a toggle should be available for players who already know what everything does (the point, afterall, is to not get in the players' way, as stated in the Fanfest NPE panel). But as a whole I find many of them useful and they have taught me some things I didn't know.


Some people have given positive feedback like this in this thread, but none, so far as I've read, have offered specific examples of tooltips that have actually improved their gameplay added in the recent patch. Empty praise like "I like it" is no more beneficial than empty criticism like "I hate it," so could you maybe provide concrete examples of new tooltips which have taught you things you didn't know or improved your gameplay in specifiable ways?

that will be hard since:

1- some tooltips are interfering with basic game functions
2- the tooltips actually deliver LESS information than pre-patch ones
3- most of the new ones are just redundant information (see: http://i.imgur.com/YpoAe7C.jpg)

there is just loss of efficiency, information and gameplay experience with the new tooltips.

this team just managed to miss ALL their goals, AND trash the basic gameplay at the same time.

it's either incompetency or sabotage, there is no other way to put it tbh

just removing the tooltips all together would have had less impact
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#886 - 2014-05-21 16:26:52 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Sven Viko Vikolander wrote:
Some people have given positive feedback like this in this thread, but none, so far as I've read, have offered specific examples of tooltips that have actually improved their gameplay added in the recent patch. Empty praise like "I like it" is no more beneficial than empty criticism like "I hate it," so could you maybe provide concrete examples of new tooltips which have taught you things you didn't know or improved your gameplay in specifiable ways?


The tooltip that tells you that you can select different Active Defense recovery rates (rather than just showing shield regen) on the fitting screen is one specific case that I had no idea about before the patch. Others being the tooltips for sig radius and inertia modifiers stating that they affect probe detectability and acceleration respectively. Both of these I had already known from 3rd party resources, but this is data that was not so readily apparent in-game and so I am glad to have that direct confirmation. I know some very experienced pilots who actually thought that agility/maneuverability/inertia rates only affected turn rates and not acceleration; this shouldn't be an issue with the new tooltips.

Another area is the tooltip that appears for Capacitor Sustainability. Most of the text in the capacitor section has been (and still is) confusing for me and honestly goes over my head, while the tooltip gives a very clear indication as to what amount of remaining cap you will stabilize at. Considering that the recharge rate changes depending on your level of remaining cap and for cap stable fits you will typically need to keep it stable above a certain amount to be actually stable, this is handy information to have. As far as I know, this tooltip didn't appear prior to the patch (though admittedly it's hard for me to remember what was and wasn't there before the patch).

One tooltip I really like is skill descriptions. If I recall correctly, previously you had to manually open each skill to view what it does. Now you can just hold your mouse over the skill and read it that way. That makes things a lot easier for me.

An area that I think is still missing that I would like to see is drone control range. I'm not in a drone ship right now but as I recall this is something that was not added with the new tooltips. This is something I think is very essential due to not being very easy to manually calculate as it is determined by several different things. It would be a great addition to the drone dps tooltip to include the control range.

And though these weren't really one of the things changed by the patch, I would really like to see more module tooltips. Skills are very neat with being able to get the full description just by mousing over them, but for many modules I still have to right click->show info if I want to know what it does. Many mods already have great tooltips and had them even before the patch, but there's many more that continue to just show the name of the item and no stats. While the tooltip shouldn't display everything, the basic stats of a module (or rig) should appear. If I hover my mouse over a Heat Sink, the tooltip should ideally pop up showing the Damage Modifier and Rate of Fire bonus, just like I can see the speed boost on a prop or the resists on a tank mod.

Basically, for me, the best use of tooltips comes from reducing the need to go to something's Show Info screen. The less I have to right click-show info, the better. The Show Info screen should be reserved for getting every tiny bit of info on the object, while a tooltip should be there give you the bare essentials.

And this is just speaking as a relatively experienced player. If I were new to the game, it'd be even more important. This is especially the case in the modern gaming industry where it is becoming more and more ingrained that if you want to know more about something you hold your mouse over it.


Overview/in-flight tooltips on the other hand are something I'm less sure on. While they can be useful for newbies, they can be very distracting for experienced pilots. They haven't gotten in my way much yet, but I can definitely understand people disapproving of them here.

One area where tooltips have gotten in my way personally has been on the Repairshop. There is absolutely no reason to have the big huge tooltips here, I don't need to know what an item does to repair it. These tooltips can make it very difficult to find what you're looking to repair.


Actually I'm agreed with everything you wrote and I will have to check out a few of these in more detail when I can get in game. I completely agree that a drone range tooltip is much needed (and it would be ideal to get drone control range information on the tactical overlay as well).

However, as you kind of pointed out, most people here AFAIK are not complaining about tooltips in the fitting window or for modules--i.e., tooltips communicating important statistics. Most people are complaining, like you said, about tooltips in space / in flight / on the overview, as they 1) get in the way of playing them game, and 2) don't communicate useful information.

Basically, when I am in the fitting window yes, I am looking for words and stats etc. When I am in space I am not looking for boxes with words or lists...
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#887 - 2014-05-21 16:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: asteroidjas
---feedback---

With the new style of the added corp/alliance ticker's on the overview...could you please make it so it works if the mouse is within the "name" column and not just over the text of their name? (if at all possible, go back and look how this was in the old 'tooltips' build, thats how it worked best)

Still waiting for an alternative to the missing data that we all used to get from the Star-Map screen by hovering over a system. To name one specifically, Corp Offices, there is no way to see who has an office in a system without flying there and looking at each station. Why was the ability to see that remotely deemed bad and needed to go?

---end feedback---

You (CCP) have yet to explain WHY you felt the old system was terrible and why it needed to be replaced with something that turns out, was MUCH worse (and hardly tested) than the previous system that apparently was so awful the players didn't even know it was bad.
John Lawyer
Doomheim
#888 - 2014-05-21 16:55:58 UTC
Why the tooltips are bad?
Reason #573:
- Poor tactical efficiency (lost my firetail right now - could not warp away from incoming enemies fast enough, which normally i do easily - in pre-patch client version) - needed an additional time for tooltip to pop then choice desired object from a list.

Yes, this is only 1-2seconds but they matters.

When I was spamming warp-to shortcut on my keyboard aiming object in space (not in list) - ship was standing still - so, i figured that objects in space are not active when tooltip window is popped = this in not user-friendly, this is user-hostile.

I have 1,5 days of my active subscription - will not prolong it until CCP fixes these tooltips.
Penny Ernaga
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#889 - 2014-05-21 19:15:54 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
I just wanted to say that we are still taking onboard the feedback in this thread and elsewhere. We are continuing to work on improving the overall experience with tooltips and contextual information in general.

I understand where some of the concerns about abandonment of this package of features 'as is' are coming from but that is definitely not an option as far as we are concerned.

We're looking to put out a patch tomorrow fixing some specific defects but also putting in some delay configuration options.


Thanks for coming back to us, appreciate it.

My apologies upfront if this sounds paranoid: but the message is pretty fluffy, and if you talk about "working on improving the overall experience with tooltips" and "fixing some specific problems" it does really not sound like you guys are thinking about solving the real issues (...I will not repeat, it`s been said 760 times now, in-space popups et al.).

If "some delay configuration options" means, that I can put the view- and interaction-blocker reaction time in space to at least 10 minutes, and still get the information as of before the infamous patch, I will rest my case, and forgett about the other things that got worse....

Fingers crossed What?
Spagoose
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#890 - 2014-05-21 20:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Spagoose
Theres a bug with tooltips not showing up and was told to post this here:

I and others have been having an issue where tooltips at some point while playing just seem to stop working and will not appear anywhere in game - in any menu or window - until you relog which will fix it temporarily until it eventually reoccurs.
Obviously this is an issue with figuring out which mini containers to pick up in exploration sites and is a pain in the map when you want to quickly see a systems security level without having to right clicking it.
The OP in this post sums up the issue perfectly:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4623626
There are also a couple other threads but no answers and dev posts at best direct us to post the issue here instead.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#891 - 2014-05-21 20:53:25 UTC
So… new problem.

I use an Air to update my skill queue and industry. It may not be the most up-to-spec machine there is, but it plays EVE well enough for these tasks and for some simple tootling around in space. Ever since these tooltips went in, the UI has been immensely sluggish, even on the character select screen, so I have to sit around and wait for tool tips to realise that I'm not interested in them and that they should go away before the client deems itself worthy of checking up on my mouse position.

As a result, any UI element that triggers a tool tip (and there are quite a few of those) locks up the mouse position. Not the cursor, mind you — it is updated as it should — but the position the game believes the cursor is actually in, which now has no resemblance to where it actually is. This makes the game utterly unplayable. I can never trust the game to activate what I'm pointing at. I can figure out where the game 100% incorrectly believes the mouse is by right-clicking and seeing where the menu pops up, and hope that this cancels the tool tip so I regain control of the cursor.

While it would be nice if this rendering issue was resolved, a global off-button for all tool tips would be a far better solution since it would be two birds in one stone. I would bug-report it but I can't even begin to convey what is and isn't working… maybe if I record it (which will be a female dog on this computer).
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#892 - 2014-05-21 21:32:42 UTC
You know there really comes a point where you just have to man up and admit "this **** just aint ready yet, we gotta do some more work on this."

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
PorkCleaner
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#893 - 2014-05-21 21:33:39 UTC
Please let me be able to turn these off. I am not a new player and don't need these. Please do not ruin the experience of one group to make another better. It probably breaks your heart to allow us to be able to turn off all your hard-work; nevertheless, these bother me a lot.

Particularly the multiboxing. When I move left to right from one window to the other, the cursor passes across the manu and as soon as I do that I have stuck tooltips. Please let me turn these off.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#894 - 2014-05-21 21:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Spagoose wrote:
Theres a bug with tooltips not showing up and was told to post this here:.
Hi there. We'd love to fix those bugs, but the best place to report a bug is by filing a bugreport from within the client. Then we get some info on your machine, and get some basic logs, and it can often help us to figure out what went wrong.
If you have relevant screenshots to attach to bugreport those are always helpful (number of times I've been investigating a bug and been like "aaaaaah, ok, he never mentioned the windows were docked, I know what this must be"P)
But yeah, bugreport would help
Edit: I think this is actually fixed in tomorrow's patch

Tippia wrote:
Ever since these tooltips went in, the UI has been immensely sluggish, even on the character select screen, so I have to sit around and wait for tool tips to realise that I'm not interested in them and that they should go away before the client deems itself worthy of checking up on my mouse position..
And Tippia, please also file a bugreport. Explain what the problem is, and maybe we see something in your logs. If you can run the logserver, please do so and send in the logs. I have not heard of this or seen this before, and if you file a bugreport on it, I'll grab it and take a look!


And like Delegate Zero said earlier, we are patching tomorrow, and I think those changes should address a lot of the tooltip concerns Smile

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur
Josef Djugashvilis
#895 - 2014-05-21 22:23:25 UTC
I accept that CCP are simply unwilling to allow an on/off switch for the tool-tips, so a good compromise would be to allow those players who wish to, set a four hour 'display tool-tips' delay.

Everybody then gets what they want.

Once again CCP, think twice, act once.

It would be interesting if CCP were to let us know how they actually play tested them, if indeed they did.

This is not a signature.
ISquishWorms
#896 - 2014-05-21 23:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISquishWorms
Occasionally these tooltips are preventing me from targetting using the overview. I think this is occuring when my mouse pointer happens to land over the icon representing the item that I am trying to target. It is really annoying and frustrating and makes a fundamental part of the game unreliable (at least for myself). Roll I have also had the incorrect cursor displayed when I moved my pointer from a window to space as the cursor did not update.

+1 to off button for these tooltips in their current state they are game breaking. It does not matter how much they help and info they provide if they break the game.

Can you imagine what the new players that you are trying to attract will experience at the moment?

"Oh great tooltips to help us and make it easy learn the game"

"Oh wait the overview is not responding and does not work as intented"

How can this possibly be a good thing?

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#897 - 2014-05-21 23:41:46 UTC
ISquishWorms wrote:
Occasionally these tooltips are preventing me from targetting using the overview. I think this is occuring when my mouse pointer happens to land over the icon representing the item that I am trying to target. It is really annoying and frustrating and makes a fundamental part of the game unreliable (at least for myself). Roll
Correct... also being fixed tomorrow P

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur
ISquishWorms
#898 - 2014-05-21 23:50:06 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
ISquishWorms wrote:
Occasionally these tooltips are preventing me from targetting using the overview. I think this is occuring when my mouse pointer happens to land over the icon representing the item that I am trying to target. It is really annoying and frustrating and makes a fundamental part of the game unreliable (at least for myself). Roll
Correct... also being fixed tomorrow P


Oh thanks that is great news!

Sorry perhaps I should have read more of the posts in this thread.

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.
Adaahh Gee
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#899 - 2014-05-22 00:05:25 UTC
Just found that the tooltip pop-up in the compare window seems to lie directly across the stats I am trying to read, regardless of the position of my mouse cursor.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1405/tooltips.jpg

It is telling me info that I already know and positioning it in the way of what I am trying to see.

Please address the issue of having a "disable tooltips" option somewhere, or a setting for the delay time that allows a very long delay (that is how I stopped the annoying radial menu popping up)
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#900 - 2014-05-22 08:38:38 UTC
Hmmm
I tried to find the ingame 'off' button, and failed.
I petitioned and got told there was no way to switch it off, and that i should post my concern here - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=346390
In that forum I get told I should post it here.

Wow, this is all working well and reeks of great human factors design work.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.