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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

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Author
ISquishWorms
#921 - 2014-05-22 17:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ISquishWorms
Ravcharas wrote:
The one tooltip that provides value to me is the wallet one. It actually shows me something I may not already know; my current balance. I now have to make a choice to give up that value in return for not being bugged by dozens of redundant little boxes.

This is not progress.


+1

You know those squares that setting a destination gives you? The ones that if you placed your mouse over would tell you what systems you passed through on the way to your destination. Well like you I now have to make a choice. I have to give up the few useful tooltips such as these or be bugged by dozens of redundant little boxes. Cry

I can at least now target things using the overview without issue.

Why not set the new tooltips to activate only for new characters and then auto deactivate after two weeks in but with an option to reactivate them if required?

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.

Little Chubby
Atrocity.
#922 - 2014-05-22 17:51:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Chubby
CCP karkur wrote:
Could you please explain to me what your huge problem with the bracket list is? (a genuine question and please be specific, for example: "cannot point/target object is space", why not, what is the problem?)
Most of the complaints I have seen about it is that you cannot click through it, but that was the case with the brackets before (we have old clients we can compare to).
The delay has now been fixed, the opacity has been tuned down, the list only appears on clusters.... what else is so horrible except that it's new?
Just so know, we are still keeping an eye on the situation, and have had a lot of discussions about it.

If there is huge lag (which we have not experienced), then please file a bugreport on it. Running the logserver and submitting that file might be a good idea, so we can better investigate potential issues.


One of the big problems with the list is that it blocking valuable screenspace and necessitating scrolling it is wholly unnecessary. Everything that is possible through it is far more easily done via the overview. However, if you are for example trying to click on something in front of a planet, you have to deal with the giant scrolling box of death instead.

Using the delay slider to all but turn this off is nice as it's no longer in the way when manual piloting, but If you insist on keeping unnecessary and redundant information popping up like this at all, can we at least get it consistent enough to mirror (or at least highly prioritize) overview settings?

Alternatively, surely a scrolling/expanded list option wouldn't be impossible. I mean, with the delay slider now it's not like you can mouse over something long enough accidentally to get hit by a sprawling list of celestials, but it would give back all the options the old client had without removing the choice for those who were dropped on the head as children and prefer the new system.
Jimmy Prophet
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#923 - 2014-05-22 17:51:49 UTC
Okay so with the in spcae slider set to max i tried the brackets in space. They are still broken.
I get 1 option in the bracket. Usually a customs office (useless if i want to warp to a planet). If it is in a cluster of many things i can't see what is in the cluster unless i change the delay and end up with a black box blocking the view with a scroll bar which delays actions as well as the lag it causes. Please bring back the old brackets list in space with planets and custom offices and the fully transparent background so we can use the infomation in atimely and efficent manner.
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#924 - 2014-05-22 18:05:16 UTC
At first I was like 'yay delay slider!'. But then I realized it delayed everything, including the useful stuff.

Come on guys, if you're going to put in a solution at least put it out the right way the first time around instead of bit by bit.

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Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#925 - 2014-05-22 18:34:25 UTC
Hmm, fiddling with the delay slider made me notice that there's an animation for tooltips disappearing. That really has to go, there is absolutely nothing wrong with tooltips just disappearing instantly, that's how they work everywhere else.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#926 - 2014-05-22 18:47:03 UTC
Bracket list that we had before was still a lot more functional than what we have now.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#927 - 2014-05-22 18:52:45 UTC
But I can't give you a proper comparison because of course they're gone now.

I COULD have given you a proper comparison if you hadn't done your stupid A/B testing.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#928 - 2014-05-22 18:54:30 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Bracket list that we had before was still a lot more functional than what we have now.


This. These are token changes that do not address many of the complaints. I want an off button for this, seriously. I want to have the old tool tips and targeting available - it was actually usable and well thought out for the most part.

I look in the FW menu to see which systems are contested; tool tip blocks 50% of the relevant information to rehash 10% of it in a completely redundant fashion.

I look in the contracts menu; tool tip blocks 2-3 contracts from plain sight and is completely redundant with what was shown in the columns. Most of the tool tips are clutter like this.

Just give us an off switch. Please. I do not like this feature one bit. Pretty much, they just clog up game play and make the entire experience very unpleasant.
Darkie Katelo
Offerings of Blood
#929 - 2014-05-22 19:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP you have a beautifull game, with thing in space, please REMOVE THE *) TOOLTIP, is insulting, and redundant, we play this game, because we are not idiots, turn it OFF!!!
If I try to target something in space in a tooltip list, then targets jump in another place, and i cant see nothing behind the black box of death.
TURN THE *) THING OFF!!! Not delay, give us a function to TURN IT OFF! please dont consider us idiots.
thank you.


*) = *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#930 - 2014-05-22 19:23:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Darkie Katelo wrote:
CCP you have a beautifull game, with thing in space, please REMOVE THE *) TOOLTIP, is insulting, and redundant, we play this game, because we are not idiots, turn it OFF!!!
If I try to target something in space in a tooltip list, then targets jump in another place, and i cant see nothing behind the black box of death.
TURN THE *) THING OFF!!! Not delay, give us a function to TURN IT OFF! please dont consider us idiots.
thank you.


*) = *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.


When you started playing you instantly knew what everything did and where to find it, right? Lol

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums

Kenneth Endashi
Kor-Azor Slave Holdings
#931 - 2014-05-22 19:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
TigerXtrm wrote:
Darkie Katelo wrote:
CCP you have a beautifull game, with thing in space, please REMOVE THE *) TOOLTIP, is insulting, and redundant, we play this game, because we are not idiots, turn it OFF!!!
If I try to target something in space in a tooltip list, then targets jump in another place, and i cant see nothing behind the black box of death.
TURN THE *) THING OFF!!! Not delay, give us a function to TURN IT OFF! please dont consider us idiots.
thank you.


*) = *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.


When you started playing you instantly knew what everything did and where to find it, right? Lol

He learned, is what he's trying to say. He learned it. I am very new to the game and I learned it. The tool tips are obtrusive and extremely unhelpful.
Josie solo
Singular Motives
#932 - 2014-05-22 19:39:42 UTC
The issue that you don't seem to grasp is that this new way of displaying brackets is worse than the old way. It becomes more of an issue the more information (ships, asteroid belts, stations) there is on screen.

A good example is a gatecamp; the old way when you mouseover the brackets of ships, wrecks etc.. they move out of the way and you can still see the ships in space, moving about and their positions relative to each other. This information is vital to assess what you do next. Whereas now this big, black box covers everything up.


At least provide a slider to change the opaque level of these big intrusive boxes.
Kenneth Endashi
Kor-Azor Slave Holdings
#933 - 2014-05-22 19:57:56 UTC
Josie solo wrote:
The issue that you don't seem to grasp is that this new way of displaying brackets is worse than the old way. It becomes more of an issue the more information (ships, asteroid belts, stations) there is on screen.

A good example is a gatecamp; the old way when you mouseover the brackets of ships, wrecks etc.. they move out of the way and you can still see the ships in space, moving about and their positions relative to each other. This information is vital to assess what you do next. Whereas now this big, black box covers everything up.


At least provide a slider to change the opaque level of these big intrusive boxes.

This is important. I had no trouble managing gate-camps before this update. I narrowly navigated null-sec hate bubbles and interceptors using on-screen information that told me what I needed to know without obscuring the field of play.

I feel like this idea for tool-tips was a good idea in perhaps a few instances of gameplay but has no place in space, where our overviews are already customized for purpose, and the hard work developers already didion the space interface in the past made us sharper pilots on the whole.

Thank you, CCP. I will gladly help you identify inefficiencies in the UI if you make an attempt to remove tool-tips from space.
Arec Bardwin
#934 - 2014-05-22 20:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Arec Bardwin
CCP karkur wrote:
Could you please explain to me what your huge problem with the bracket list is? (a genuine question and please be specific, for example: "cannot point/target object is space", why not, what is the problem?)
Most of the complaints I have seen about it is that you cannot click through it, but that was the case with the brackets before (we have old clients we can compare to).
The delay has now been fixed, the opacity has been tuned down, the list only appears on clusters.... what else is so horrible except that it's new?
Just so know, we are still keeping an eye on the situation, and have had a lot of discussions about it.

What was wrong with the old system, except that it was old?

I don't have the old system available for comparison, but a few pointers:

1. No opacity changes as I have seen, If you can see through that box of death you must have some sort of super vision. The old system was vastly superior in this regard. There needs to be an option to adjust opacity and remove the friggin window frame.

2. Anchor the LEFT side of the list to the mouse pointer, not the friggin middle of the box! This way we can quickly flip left and then right again to refresh. PLUS less of the action is covered by the list.

3. Now EVERYTHING is truncated, so alot of potentially important information is not displayed. The old list was a lot more dynamic in this regard. You could actually interact outside of the list where the list entries were short. With the box of death there is just a friggin box (did I mention it was smack in the middle of the action?)

4. The best upgrade would be the old list with options to customize number of listings and ability to scroll with mouse wheel.

I still can't believe this design went to TQ, if I wanted to spend another 5 minutes I could probably draw a schematic to help out. But you guys are discussing this and keeping an eye on the situation, so this shouldn't be needed.
Cade Windstalker
#935 - 2014-05-22 20:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
The lack of empathy with new players present in this thread is saddening :(

Some legitimate complaints but a lot of people who don't remember what it was like to be new players just figuring out a confusing and complicated game for the first time.

An option to turn off tool-tips is fine, but removing them entirely? No, they're useful for newer players who are still learning the UI and gameplay.
Kenneth Endashi
Kor-Azor Slave Holdings
#936 - 2014-05-22 20:29:02 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
The lack of empathy with new players present in this thread is saddening :(

Some legitimate complaints but a lot of people who don't remember what it was like to be new players just figuring out a confusing and complicated game for the first time.

I am new to the game and find the tool-tips detract from the experience. Even if I was "brand new" to the game, I would wonder why the tool-tip says the same thing as the thing to which it's supposed to be "tipping" me off.

And I would probably assume it's an artifact left behind from an incomplete job.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#937 - 2014-05-22 21:03:45 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

An option to turn off tool-tips is fine, but removing them entirely? No, they're useful for newer players who are still learning the UI and gameplay.

I don't think anyone here has seriously promoted removing tooltips entirely, however turning them off would be welcome there's no reason to force unnecessary clutter and complication on everyone especially when this "feature" obviously wasn't out of alpha, and clearly was not completely thought out.

Futzing-about trying to tweak this on the live server is truly laughable, I sure hope this latest experience causes CCP to really rethink their present QA practices given their new release schedule.

/who am I kidding...

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

John Lawyer
Doomheim
#938 - 2014-05-22 21:18:56 UTC
Ok, let's not fool ourselves about newbies!
I remember well when I was newbie and how happy I was to find all necessary info just one click away (RMB --> Show Info).
Of course, some descriptions were not completely clear for me but that is another story.

P.S.: my subscription has expired - still waiting for adequate solution as for 'tooltips' case.
P.P.S.: CCP, you are doing a good game, thank you for this, but these tooltips are ... weird. Really.
Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
#939 - 2014-05-22 21:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Seismic Stan
CCP karkur wrote:
Could you please explain to me what your huge problem with the bracket list is? (a genuine question and please be specific, for example: "cannot point/target object is space", why not, what is the problem?)
Most of the complaints I have seen about it is that you cannot click through it, but that was the case with the brackets before (we have old clients we can compare to).
The delay has now been fixed, the opacity has been tuned down, the list only appears on clusters.... what else is so horrible except that it's new?
Just so know, we are still keeping an eye on the situation, and have had a lot of discussions about it.

If there is huge lag (which we have not experienced), then please file a bugreport on it. Running the logserver and submitting that file might be a good idea, so we can better investigate potential issues.

As I grow accustomed to using the new in-space tooltips to navigate, I find it generally clear and easy to use.

However, there are certain circumstances in which I'd like to see some more improvements:

  • The number of characters visible often clips longer names, making it impossible to identify or differentiate between similarly named destinations, eg. multiple asteroid belts.

  • After mousing over a bracket cluster on the edge of the screen, moving the cursor onto the tooltip in order to select one of the presenting items occasionally causes the tooltip to disappear as if I'd moved my mouse away from the bracket cluster.

  • When following the yellow autopilot pathway, if the bracket navigation tooltip is populated with more than 10 items, scrolling through to find the desired bracket feels like an unnecessary chore (I don't recall this being a problem with the previous system). Could the yellow target item be given priority and moved into the initially visible 10? It would also be useful to have the highlighted yellow bracket made more prominent when in a bracket cluster - white and yellow are difficult to distinguish.

  • When using multiple monitors and moving the mouse cursor away from the EVE client, the departing cursor often triggers a tooltip which remains for the duration of the absent cursor.

  • [*] When mousing over single brackets at the right edge of the screen, the resulting (non-tooltip) text flickers.
    Sven Viko VIkolander
    Allemannsrett
    #940 - 2014-05-22 21:52:45 UTC
    CCP karkur wrote:
    Could you please explain to me what your huge problem with the bracket list is? (a genuine question and please be specific, for example: "cannot point/target object is space", why not, what is the problem?)
    Most of the complaints I have seen about it is that you cannot click through it, but that was the case with the brackets before (we have old clients we can compare to).
    The delay has now been fixed, the opacity has been tuned down, the list only appears on clusters.... what else is so horrible except that it's new?
    Just so know, we are still keeping an eye on the situation, and have had a lot of discussions about it.



    Thank you for caring! I think much of the other feedback for this question on page 47 is spot on. I would rate the feedback on page 47 a 10/10, would read again.
    I also think it cannot be stressed enough that there are useful tooltips and non-useful tooltips. Useful tooltips display information, usually numbers, which I cannot usually get anywhere else. Non-useful tooltips communicate redundant or trivial information only some of which would be useful for even a 1 day old character.
    I also agree with the comment that the little “quick fade” animation the tooltips have when you stop mousing over them is annoying. The tooltips should simply disappear once you remove your mouse.

    As for the problem with the bracket list:
    I've explained much of this in previous posts, but let's go through the problems. The general issue is that brackets are for finding information IN SPACE—not for finding information in space which then gets transferred to a list. Take a look at this screenshot—a random SS from a normal interaction in EVE, in this case while PVEing: http://i.imgur.com/uGPnptA.jpg?1

    I am not being condescending, but I am going to explain the problems as if I were explaining them to a programmer or gamer who did not play EVE:

    1) The first thing you notice about this screenshot? There is way the heck too much information going on. Like seriously too many lists / blocks of information. Even if you had zero clue what any of the lists communicated, you will likely also notice that the one that is most disruptive is the one that is taking up a big portion of the middle of the screen, where all the “action” seems to be happening.

    2) You might also notice that the big block of text in the middle is just a jumble of information. It doesn't have ordering options, but even if it did you already have a list with ordering options to the far right.

    3) When I am interacting with things in space—instead of on the UI—I use things like “depth perception” and zooming in and out to maneuver, find targets, find where my own ship is located, find where other ships wrapped to or what direction they are flying in, etc. Having a big list pop up—even if transparent—prevents me from doing that. It messes with depth perception and zooming, for instance, or it limits the ability to manually pilot, particularly in hectic areas.

    Plus all the other stuff people have said.