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[Kronos] Medium Micro Jump Drives

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Annedalda Dixenme
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#561 - 2014-05-19 21:26:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Annedalda Dixenme
Use numbers. They help. Trying to insult someone when you cannot refute an argument doesn't help anybody.

Edit: No point in arguing with stupid.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#562 - 2014-05-19 21:35:52 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:


50km:
http://imgur.com/n0eFTaV

100km:
http://imgur.com/irFFd6o
...

I submit that either 50km or 75km is the ideal choice, since it would allow both types of tactics to be used by modifying the angle of attack and initial range to target.

I dont know if you did any math there but:

http://imgur.com/Q5XLbYv (and yes those measurements for the radii are to scale)
...
And no matter what range you choose there will always be holes that you cannot reach properly.


No I didn't do any math, those were just quick-n-dirty jobs to illustrate the concept. Look at it more as "This kind of jump is closer range then you started." "That kind of jump is longer range then you started." and so forth.

My main point is that 100km is so far out of a BC's effective combat range that it has no useful purpose in normal small gang fights.

Overhaul Dscan!
Maraner
The Executioners
#563 - 2014-05-19 21:38:19 UTC
I love this idea.

This will really shake up low sec combat especially.

Not making it usable for attack BC's probably a good idea, 1400mm Nado would be just a bit op.

Plus it will let use BC's again against grossly OP setups like ishtars, which needed a severe nerf bat attack, so maybe this module is the counter instead of just an outright nerf to ishtars.

Thanks Fozzie, this is good stuff.
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#564 - 2014-05-19 22:07:17 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:
Dear CCP Fozzie,

Please stop this. Stop promoting coward ways of PVP. We already have "blanket on your face" called Falcon and EC drones, utterly ******** tank modules like dual X-large ASB on ships so ppl can deagro and dock/jump through gate. With this kind of approach you are making nearly every kiting ship useless against BCs. Could you please tell me the outcome of engagement between Prophecy and NOMEN for example after MMJD will be introduced? Can you please define the role of Warp Disruptor in future? We already have anchorable device with similar functionality for people who want to MJD out in any other class then BS. While I understand the reason of fitting such module to field command ships, I don't see any reasonable argument why it must be present on other BCs.

Please do us all a favor and stop trying to re-invent the wheel. We already have it and it is working. Please focus all your efforts and precious time (that we all pay for) on something better then yet another module or ship (like there are few disposable ships in this game).

So much this.
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#565 - 2014-05-19 22:10:40 UTC
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:
I feel like maybe some of the people in the thread aren't ACTUALLY familiar with how MJD work. I wish to help.

"It is just a git out of jail free card." "People will just be uncatchable." "I don't want to have to fit my ship for anything but gate camping, so this ruins the entire balance of the game!"

If you fall into these groups I think I might be able to ease some of your worries. First is that it take 12 seconds for them to take off. If you can't catch them in 12 seconds when there is no way you could catch them before the leave a bubble now. Lets look at the math. Lets say you have a tackle in your gang who travels at 3k/s. They would have to be more than 45km away to escape the scram. Lets look at it another way. On the UniWiki they have the Drake's align time at 12.2sec, so if you have a scram fit there is no noticeable difference. Sure the long point isn't guaranteeing you that care-bear kill anymore, but hey we need to get better anyway.

So if I'm flying in a huge blob with scram ships and enough logis to keep the scram ships up in brawl range then this isn't an issue for me, I just have my scram brick tanked proteus scram it while my 12 guardians rep him. I'll bear this useful advice in mind as I mourn the death of solo.
Bionic Wolf
Doomheim
#566 - 2014-05-19 22:13:56 UTC
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:
Use numbers. They help. Trying to insult someone when you cannot refute an argument doesn't help anybody.

Edit: No point in arguing with stupid.


Use realistic application, it helps. I'm sorry but getting your nose bent out of place after trying to patronise everyone whos concerns you don't understand is funny.

Your logic was/is completely flawed on the basis that your suggesting the only thing that matters is whether or not you can scramble somebody.

Anybody with real experience on the subject knows how much more to the discussion there is than that. Such as your argument only applies if you have a dedicated tackler, which many genuine small gangs don't, and obviously soloers definately don't. Or secondly you're assuming it's a :highfive: moment getting into scramble range, which for agile ships trying to avoid getting ganked in hostile territory, it usually isn't. Or how about a situation where your stretching a fight and the frigate you've decided to yolo after the BC has to minimize his transversal and head straight back into the hostiles friends to tackle? GL with that.

Of course.....those aren't elements interpreted very effectively on a calculator.
Annedalda Dixenme
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#567 - 2014-05-19 22:14:54 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:


50km:
http://imgur.com/n0eFTaV

100km:
http://imgur.com/irFFd6o
...

I submit that either 50km or 75km is the ideal choice, since it would allow both types of tactics to be used by modifying the angle of attack and initial range to target.

I dont know if you did any math there but:

http://imgur.com/Q5XLbYv (and yes those measurements for the radii are to scale)
...
And no matter what range you choose there will always be holes that you cannot reach properly.


No I didn't do any math, those were just quick-n-dirty jobs to illustrate the concept. Look at it more as "This kind of jump is closer range then you started." "That kind of jump is longer range then you started." and so forth.

My main point is that 100km is so far out of a BC's effective combat range that it has no useful purpose in normal small gang fights.



If either side has bookmarks, then you can use them to cover the distance. It's not uncommon for me to see people 100km off a gate. The idea is to use them at an angle or line that would put you at optimal. You are absolutely right that jumping 100km away from somebody won't help a BC looking for a fight, but with some trig you can cut distances by a very meaningful amount in 12seconds. Ines shows that pretty well.

The main issue is that it takes 180 seconds to fix a mistake if you make one. or as Rowelss showed, with just one jump there are many situations where it doesn't improve your situation.

The neat thing about these is that you can get anywhere within 200k with two jumps. That is 192 seconds or 1041m/s. So it's not like a ludicrous speed button, but it will make interesting choices for kiters and kitees. I would love to see some sort of new T2 BC with a marauder-type 1 minute CD on the MMJD.
Maraner
The Executioners
#568 - 2014-05-19 22:21:35 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:
I feel like maybe some of the people in the thread aren't ACTUALLY familiar with how MJD work. I wish to help.

"It is just a git out of jail free card." "People will just be uncatchable." "I don't want to have to fit my ship for anything but gate camping, so this ruins the entire balance of the game!"

If you fall into these groups I think I might be able to ease some of your worries. First is that it take 12 seconds for them to take off. If you can't catch them in 12 seconds when there is no way you could catch them before the leave a bubble now. Lets look at the math. Lets say you have a tackle in your gang who travels at 3k/s. They would have to be more than 45km away to escape the scram. Lets look at it another way. On the UniWiki they have the Drake's align time at 12.2sec, so if you have a scram fit there is no noticeable difference. Sure the long point isn't guaranteeing you that care-bear kill anymore, but hey we need to get better anyway.

So if I'm flying in a huge blob with scram ships and enough logis to keep the scram ships up in brawl range then this isn't an issue for me, I just have my scram brick tanked proteus scram it while my 12 guardians rep him. I'll bear this useful advice in mind as I mourn the death of solo.



Agree with the above... if you cant grab someone on a gate in 12 secs your doing it wrong.

This module is a counter to nano setups (Ishtars ) that really really badly needs a counter, at the moment if you turn up with almost anything you name against an Ishtar setup you get pounded into scrap whist they stay out of scram range. Battlecruisers are especially useless against nano setups. There are only 1 or 2 counters to them (btw falcons are not it, they get wasted by the drones that are not effected by ecm), so the kitting setups get to keep range, apply ridiculous damage at low risk to themselves. **** that ****.

Roll on BC's with MJD. I wont be using them to get away, I will be using it to get into scram ranges of nano setups with high dps brawling bc's.
Annedalda Dixenme
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#569 - 2014-05-19 22:26:20 UTC
Bionic Wolf wrote:
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:
Use numbers. They help. Trying to insult someone when you cannot refute an argument doesn't help anybody.

Edit: No point in arguing with stupid.


Use realistic application, it helps. I'm sorry but getting your nose bent out of place after trying to patronise everyone whos concerns you don't understand is funny.

Your logic was/is completely flawed on the basis that your suggesting the only thing that matters is whether or not you can scramble somebody.

Anybody with real experience on the subject knows how much more to the discussion there is than that. Such as your argument only applies if you have a dedicated tackler, which many genuine small gangs don't, and obviously soloers definately don't. Or secondly you're assuming it's a :highfive: moment getting into scramble range, which for agile ships trying to avoid getting ganked in hostile territory, it usually isn't. Or how about a situation where your stretching a fight and the frigate you've decided to yolo after the BC has to minimize his transversal and head straight back into the hostiles friends to tackle? GL with that.

Of course.....those aren't elements interpreted very effectively on a calculator.



The point is that the ideas of the MMJD being completely overpowered or not having a counter are ridiculous. As are the arguments that new mods need to be in place to counter them. The numbers are to back that claim up. That is how you make and discuss arguments. With facts.

What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies.

Sometimes people will be fit in a way that outclasses you or at least doesn't give you a free loot pinata. You will have to deal with that. Don't expect CCP to keep a stale boring meta so that you can feel like a 1337 solo PVPer.
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#570 - 2014-05-19 22:30:16 UTC
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:

What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies.

You think that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a mwd and therefore this change is no difference because longpoints don't do anything anyway? This is genuinely your argument?
Annedalda Dixenme
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#571 - 2014-05-19 22:36:01 UTC
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:

What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies.

You think that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a mwd and therefore this change is no difference because longpoints don't do anything anyway? This is genuinely your argument?


No. That is not. I'm sorry that it was difficult to understand. Let me try again.

There are counters to these mods. The counter is well known. If your complaint is that you think the MMDJ will be overpowered because you can't keep up, then you should fit a scram and turn it on every time they try to spool. If you really want them to suffer you can even wait until they activate it so that they keep wasting cap, you have 12 seconds to do it.

It's not that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a MWD. I never even come close to saying anything like that.
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#572 - 2014-05-19 22:38:43 UTC
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:
Wrathful Penguins wrote:
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:

What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies.

You think that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a mwd and therefore this change is no difference because longpoints don't do anything anyway? This is genuinely your argument?


No. That is not. I'm sorry that it was difficult to understand. Let me try again.

There are counters to these mods. The counter is well known. If your complaint is that you think the MMDJ will be overpowered because you can't keep up, then you should fit a scram and turn it on every time they try to spool. If you really want them to suffer you can even wait until they activate it so that they keep wasting cap, you have 12 seconds to do it.

It's not that a ship with a long point can't beat a ship with a MWD. I never even come close to saying anything like that.

If the only counter to a MMJD is flying a ship with a scram when solo and going into their scram range then where exactly does that leave longpoints and solo players in a game when most of their prey won't be alone? I guess if I add a falcon alt to break his scram when local +10s that'd work but it's hardly a good improvement.
Bionic Wolf
Doomheim
#573 - 2014-05-19 22:52:13 UTC
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:
Bionic Wolf wrote:
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:
Use numbers. They help. Trying to insult someone when you cannot refute an argument doesn't help anybody.

Edit: No point in arguing with stupid.


Use realistic application, it helps. I'm sorry but getting your nose bent out of place after trying to patronise everyone whos concerns you don't understand is funny.

Your logic was/is completely flawed on the basis that your suggesting the only thing that matters is whether or not you can scramble somebody.

Anybody with real experience on the subject knows how much more to the discussion there is than that. Such as your argument only applies if you have a dedicated tackler, which many genuine small gangs don't, and obviously soloers definately don't. Or secondly you're assuming it's a :highfive: moment getting into scramble range, which for agile ships trying to avoid getting ganked in hostile territory, it usually isn't. Or how about a situation where your stretching a fight and the frigate you've decided to yolo after the BC has to minimize his transversal and head straight back into the hostiles friends to tackle? GL with that.

Of course.....those aren't elements interpreted very effectively on a calculator.



The point is that the ideas of the MMJD being completely overpowered or not having a counter are ridiculous. As are the arguments that new mods need to be in place to counter them. The numbers are to back that claim up. That is how you make and discuss arguments. With facts.

What matters if you are trying to get someone tackled if they have a MJD? Why a scram matters. That is the counter, so of course it is important. Same as a MWD. If you can't deal with either of those then you really need to work on your strategies.

Sometimes people will be fit in a way that outclasses you or at least doesn't give you a free loot pinata. You will have to deal with that. Don't expect CCP to keep a stale boring meta so that you can feel like a 1337 solo PVPer.



Lol you're right there is no point arguing with stupid. Let me know when you're done playing calculators online and actually get a grasp how things work in reality. I mean lol at your suggestion that the solution is some kind of charge manouver.

Could we grab a cynabal and fit a scram and go barrelling into targets? Sure. Is it a good idea? Obviously not (although possibly to you based on the arguments you've made so far.)

Forcing everybody to use scrams instead of disrupters which the proposed change is on the verge at least of doing is destroying a major engagement strategy, and your suggestion that having everyone brawl is the opposite of a stale boring meta is ridiculous.
Annedalda Dixenme
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#574 - 2014-05-19 23:04:01 UTC
These are some of the saddest misinterpretations I have ever seen.Roll Mods some counter other mods, some ships counter other ships. It's a strategy game. If you don't want to use the tools you are given, or form a new strategy as needed, then this is the wrong game of you.
Bionic Wolf
Doomheim
#575 - 2014-05-19 23:05:38 UTC
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:
These are some of the saddest misinterpretations I have ever seen.Roll .


Pot meet kettle
Wrathful Penguins
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#576 - 2014-05-19 23:09:59 UTC
And the counter to a nerf to a viable style of 1vmany PvP is apparently having more dudes than they have. This is not an acceptable option to many.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#577 - 2014-05-19 23:10:34 UTC
I see this thread went straight to stupid.

1) On attack BCs nothing changes, they are usually shooting aligned at full speed anyway, a good naga or blap-nado has near no tank anyway, they can't chance it. They get a little bit more breathing room by getting out of bubbles easier, but that may shoot them past their pings and landing at celestial is dicey. In low sec nothing changes, you don't have bubbles anyway.

2) On Combat BCs its an offensive application, since their projection is hindered by medium weapons, the idea would be to get them into range, in defense its near useless since most ceptor pilots with a brain are already burning along your align when they see the graphic. So its a moot point IF they aren't running stilettos that have a short point anyway, most fleet ceptor pilots aren't going to get caught sleeping, and unless they are on the back end of a wide orbit they are going to get there before you can align out. Its simply delaying the inevitable. The best use would be jumping down into range.

Eitherway, I don't see it as being gamebreaking. It changes a couple hulls, no biggie compared to a lot of the other changes.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#578 - 2014-05-19 23:21:40 UTC
Elise Randolph wrote:
Man what fits, or scenarios, are you people coming up with that makes the Tier-3s super pwnmobiles when you add in a once-every-3-minutes 100km blink? This isn't rhetorical, I really have to know what makes the Teir-3s that much more overpowered than Command ships


Is it like, sniping in lowsec? Because if you think that would be game-breakingly overpowered you can do this in a battleship with: better tank, same damage, same range, align time within 10% of an attack BC, with an MJD and MWD - which would actually be nontrivial on most of the sniping tier-3s.

Enlighten me.


If it's not that amazing as you put it, why are you advocating it then?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#579 - 2014-05-19 23:34:43 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.


How are MJD's a counterbalance to bombs?

Bombers decloak and immediately launch bombs which takes 10s to travel and explode.
An MJD takes 9 - 12 s to "cycle" before taking you away from the blast zone.

Do pilots pragmatically have the reaction window to MJD away before you get bombed to death?

bomb launches are only 1 sec long for the best and most skilled bomb groups. for the most part it can take anywhere from 3-4 seconds for the whole group to launch all the bombs. Even with 12 second spool up time, if you are quick on the draw you can avoid takin damage from the bombs launched toward the end. You won't escape damage from all of them but if you have enough tank to begin with you can avoid being bombed off the field in one go.

Congratulations you hit MJD early enough so that you can avoid the last 2-3 bombs...
and die anyway because you increased your signature radius hitting MJD.

Well that depends on the ship, tank, and bomb run. It does work often enough.
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#580 - 2014-05-20 00:27:20 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:
Dear CCP Fozzie,

Please stop this. Stop promoting coward ways of PVP. We already have "blanket on your face" called Falcon and EC drones, utterly ******** tank modules like dual X-large ASB on ships so ppl can deagro and dock/jump through gate. With this kind of approach you are making nearly every kiting ship useless against BCs. Could you please tell me the outcome of engagement between Prophecy and NOMEN for example after MMJD will be introduced? Can you please define the role of Warp Disruptor in future? We already have anchorable device with similar functionality for people who want to MJD out in any other class then BS. While I understand the reason of fitting such module to field command ships, I don't see any reasonable argument why it must be present on other BCs.

Please do us all a favor and stop trying to re-invent the wheel. We already have it and it is working. Please focus all your efforts and precious time (that we all pay for) on something better then yet another module or ship (like there are few disposable ships in this game).

Ahahaha

I love how at first you talk warmly about no more 'coward ways of PVP', then later in the post you reveal this is really all about protecting your pet form of coward PVP.

Go fly a brawler ship if you don't like 'coward PVP'. Oh, wait, you'll just get kited by the cowards with link alts? GEE.

All this does is give brawling ships a fighting chance against the hordes of idiots in Nomens and Ishtars like yourself.