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[Kronos] Medium Micro Jump Drives

First post First post First post
Author
XxRTEKxX
256th Shadow Wing
Phantom-Recon
#541 - 2014-05-19 18:54:24 UTC
Vivianne Athonille wrote:
Will Command Ships also include the Industrial Command Ship (Orca) ?


Orca should be allowed to fit a large micro jump drive as it can fit 100mn ab/mwd.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#542 - 2014-05-19 18:58:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.


How are MJD's a counterbalance to bombs?

Bombers decloak and immediately launch bombs which takes 10s to travel and explode.
An MJD takes 9 - 12 s to "cycle" before taking you away from the blast zone.

Do pilots pragmatically have the reaction window to MJD away before you get bombed to death?
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#543 - 2014-05-19 18:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
how about we just get rid of the distinction between scams and disruptors and go to a total point system? Have two total points of disruption act as the functional equivalent of a scram (taking into account any subtractions you would have to make for fitted stabs). This would not be an unmanageable situation for small/grps and solos - it would boil down to a "fitting" question of whether you carry two long points or one short one and it could be countered by folk fitting stabs in lowslots.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#544 - 2014-05-19 19:23:35 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
how about we just get rid of the distinction between scams and disruptors and go to a total point system? Have two points of disruption act as the functional equivalent of a scram. This would not be an unmanageable situation for small/grps and solos - it would boil down to a "fitting" question of whether you carry two long points or one short one.

As long as you've got 2 mids available - and many, many kiting setups can find that kind of room - then essentially you're giving every kiting ship a 24km scram. That drastically reduces the counters to kiting ships, especially in gangs that are actually small as opposed to nullbear small.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#545 - 2014-05-19 19:28:47 UTC
Here are two rough (paint.net ftw) diagrams of the range envelope of this module. One is a proposed 50km MJD, the other is the announced 100km MJD. Look at these diagrams and remember that CBC engagement range is roughly 0-20km (brawler fit) or 25-50km (sniper fit).

Which one of these would be more useful in combat?

50km:
http://imgur.com/n0eFTaV

100km:
http://imgur.com/irFFd6o

Not to scale, obviously. The diagrams assumes a starting distance to target of 50% the MJD's range.

The 50km is ideal for a brawler. 100km has a couple moves that are useful to a sniper if the target is also a sniper*, but it's 100% useless to and against a brawler, except as an escape device.

*if the target starts out closer then the diagram assumes, then the 100km jump has no options that place the target within weapon range, regardless of fit.

I submit that either 50km or 75km is the ideal choice, since it would allow both types of tactics to be used by modifying the angle of attack and initial range to target.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#546 - 2014-05-19 19:29:44 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.


How are MJD's a counterbalance to bombs?

Bombers decloak and immediately launch bombs which takes 10s to travel and explode.
An MJD takes 9 - 12 s to "cycle" before taking you away from the blast zone.

Do pilots pragmatically have the reaction window to MJD away before you get bombed to death?

bomb launches are only 1 sec long for the best and most skilled bomb groups. for the most part it can take anywhere from 3-4 seconds for the whole group to launch all the bombs. Even with 12 second spool up time, if you are quick on the draw you can avoid takin damage from the bombs launched toward the end. You won't escape damage from all of them but if you have enough tank to begin with you can avoid being bombed off the field in one go.
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#547 - 2014-05-19 19:44:44 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Randolph Sykes wrote:
Those who are proposing 50 km range - how it makes it any different from 100 km? What can you achieve with this? 20 km is fine, 25 km is fine, 30 km is fine, 40+ km is not fine at all.


50km is the range of a sniper fit BC. I flew with a corp that did 50km bc fleets for a while, it worked extremely well. Aside from the whole all-fights-start-at-0km-on-a-gate thing, anyway. 50km jumps would be perfect for this fleet setup.

Also, 50km jumps give easy access to 25-50km jumps as well. By jumping at an angle to the target, instead of in a straight line, you can control the final range surprisingly well (yay Pythagoras). Try it on a BS in game. This means it would be useful to medium range fits and not just long range fits. For the same reason, 75km jumps would be a reasonable compromise as well.

100km is so far out of a BC combat range that it has no combat purpose. Escape is the only possible use for the module if the stats dont change.

note to CCP: Pay attention to the two bolded words. They are imporant.


There's one other use for the MMJD as it stands currently: trying to tackle 100km kitey snipers without necessarily using probes to get a bead on them. That said, I think I could be convinced that 75km with a 9 second base spool time might also be reasonable. In any event, I'm looking forward to trying to get Cyclones on top of Ishtars with this module. Escape is not the only possible use; not dying in a fire trying to tackle snipers is at least a theoretical use.
MaraudR73
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#548 - 2014-05-19 19:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: MaraudR73
Like I read a couple of times, its a good idea to make the range of the MMJD 75km with 9 seconds spool time, that would make them in line with the Battleships.

I still think the MMJD is just a big nerf to the warp disruptor and I still think MMJD should not be implemented, but knowing CCP they will push it through anyway like they did with the RLML....

So we better make the best of it.....
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#549 - 2014-05-19 20:06:46 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Here are two rough (paint.net ftw) diagrams of the range envelope of this module. One is a proposed 50km MJD, the other is the announced 100km MJD. Look at these diagrams and remember that CBC engagement range is roughly 0-20km (brawler fit) or 25-50km (sniper fit).

Which one of these would be more useful in combat?

50km:
http://imgur.com/n0eFTaV

100km:
http://imgur.com/irFFd6o

Not to scale, obviously. The diagrams assumes a starting distance to target of 50% the MJD's range.

The 50km is ideal for a brawler. 100km has a couple moves that are useful to a sniper if the target is also a sniper*, but it's 100% useless to and against a brawler, except as an escape device.

*if the target starts out closer then the diagram assumes, then the 100km jump has no options that place the target within weapon range, regardless of fit.

I submit that either 50km or 75km is the ideal choice, since it would allow both types of tactics to be used by modifying the angle of attack and initial range to target.

I dont know if you did any math there but:

http://imgur.com/Q5XLbYv (and yes those measurements for the radii are to scale)

I don't know where you got an acute angle where 15km is an option. Unless you plan to jump into their flight path, the closest option availible is always directly behind them, so long as they are beyond 50% range. Closer than 50% and then you have to get some weird angle on either side of them.

My opinion on the 50km size is that it cannot be used by anyone who isn't attempting to get closer to a specific range sniper in there brawler fit. Its almost useless to try and attack long range ABCs who are out beyond 75km (mjd + disruptor range). It also removes the battlecruisers ability to get out of a BS clusterf*ck where the ranges can reach out to 50+ on a fewr weapons with the right ammo and some tracking computers (not too uncommon). And with smaller faster ships, especially interceptors, 50km may not be far enough to use as an escape method. This modules intended purpose seems to be to allow close range ships to attempt to get closer to long range snipers, and for those same ships (and their sniper counterparts) to get out of the grasp of brawlers who have gotten in too close. 100km alows you to get in range of very distant foes and to also get out of range of enemies that are too close.

This also aloys you to take on the ABCs that don't have MJD and are very long range, increasing the chance of catching them.

But that's just my take on it.

And no matter what range you choose there will always be holes that you cannot reach properly.
Potions Master
GearBunny
#550 - 2014-05-19 20:12:44 UTC
Can we get the MMJD on mining barges and exhumers too?

(Why not just let every ship have the option, then it will be balanced for everyone)
Annedalda Dixenme
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#551 - 2014-05-19 20:13:15 UTC
I feel like maybe some of the people in the thread aren't ACTUALLY familiar with how MJD work. I wish to help.

"It is just a git out of jail free card." "People will just be uncatchable." "I don't want to have to fit my ship for anything but gate camping, so this ruins the entire balance of the game!"

If you fall into these groups I think I might be able to ease some of your worries. First is that it take 12 seconds for them to take off. If you can't catch them in 12 seconds when there is no way you could catch them before the leave a bubble now. Lets look at the math. Lets say you have a tackle in your gang who travels at 3k/s. They would have to be more than 45km away to escape the scram. Lets look at it another way. On the UniWiki they have the Drake's align time at 12.2sec, so if you have a scram fit there is no noticeable difference. Sure the long point isn't guaranteeing you that care-bear kill anymore, but hey we need to get better anyway.
XMaxan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#552 - 2014-05-19 20:18:35 UTC
Could just add MJD of all sizes that have varying affects and are only limited by fitting, you know like current MWD. Make the distance jumped a factor based on ships speed and mass, meaning smaller MJD modules can jump small ships comparable distances with much less fitting need.

Personally I like the idea of being able to jump a set distance and suffer shorter cooldowns as a result though. Makes the use of the module take more planning and makes the mission running marauders have a way to jump right on gate when they clear a room.
XMaxan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#553 - 2014-05-19 20:21:07 UTC
Potions Master wrote:
Can we get the MMJD on mining barges and exhumers too?

(Why not just let every ship have the option, then it will be balanced for everyone)



Just noticed your post, I agree all should be able to fit MJD's, same as MWD's.

Also nice look.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#554 - 2014-05-19 20:34:01 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there.


I'm counting on you, because now I'm super dissapointed. :(

Even though in Brave we would have probably been on the receiving end I know :D

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#555 - 2014-05-19 20:40:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To be clear, we're not ruling out expansion to Attack Battlecruisers in the future. We'll start with these classes and see how it goes from there.


Never do that..

Arty nado's sitting 100km away from you are annoyingly uncatchable as it is.. they don't need more.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bionic Wolf
Doomheim
#556 - 2014-05-19 20:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bionic Wolf
Annedalda Dixenme wrote:
I feel like maybe some of the people in the thread aren't ACTUALLY familiar with how MJD work. I wish to help.

"It is just a git out of jail free card." "People will just be uncatchable." "I don't want to have to fit my ship for anything but gate camping, so this ruins the entire balance of the game!"

If you fall into these groups I think I might be able to ease some of your worries. First is that it take 12 seconds for them to take off. If you can't catch them in 12 seconds when there is no way you could catch them before the leave a bubble now. Lets look at the math. Lets say you have a tackle in your gang who travels at 3k/s. They would have to be more than 45km away to escape the scram. Lets look at it another way. On the UniWiki they have the Drake's align time at 12.2sec, so if you have a scram fit there is no noticeable difference. Sure the long point isn't guaranteeing you that care-bear kill anymore, but hey we need to get better anyway.


Have you ever actually small ganged yourself? Because your attempt at being patronising is just showing your ignorance and lack of experience on the subject.
Draco Knight
Wormhole Rats and Fromage
#557 - 2014-05-19 20:57:44 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
how about we just get rid of the distinction between scams and disruptors and go to a total point system? Have two total points of disruption act as the functional equivalent of a scram (taking into account any subtractions you would have to make for fitted stabs). This would not be an unmanageable situation for small/grps and solos - it would boil down to a "fitting" question of whether you carry two long points or one short one and it could be countered by folk fitting stabs in lowslots.


First of all, I am of the opinion that all warp cancelling mods, disruptors, scramblers and bubbles should also cancel all types of MJDs, always. IMO teleportation gameplay is bad gameplay(especially on grid teleportation) and there is enough of that in eve already.

But, if we have to have it, this suggestion above is actually a good suggestion. Interdiction bubbles should cancel all warp and jump mechanics as originally intended.
Ivory Kantenu
Apotheosis.
#558 - 2014-05-19 21:04:14 UTC
So....can I get the ability to put one on my Noctis?

Lol

[i]Learn the basics of Wormhole Selling: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101693&find=unread[/i]

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#559 - 2014-05-19 21:11:29 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It creates good options for newer FCs to learn with and in particular MMJDs are a very valuable counterbalance to bombs for battlecruisers at the fleet level.


How are MJD's a counterbalance to bombs?

Bombers decloak and immediately launch bombs which takes 10s to travel and explode.
An MJD takes 9 - 12 s to "cycle" before taking you away from the blast zone.

Do pilots pragmatically have the reaction window to MJD away before you get bombed to death?

bomb launches are only 1 sec long for the best and most skilled bomb groups. for the most part it can take anywhere from 3-4 seconds for the whole group to launch all the bombs. Even with 12 second spool up time, if you are quick on the draw you can avoid takin damage from the bombs launched toward the end. You won't escape damage from all of them but if you have enough tank to begin with you can avoid being bombed off the field in one go.

Congratulations you hit MJD early enough so that you can avoid the last 2-3 bombs...
and die anyway because you increased your signature radius hitting MJD.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#560 - 2014-05-19 21:12:54 UTC
Man what fits, or scenarios, are you people coming up with that makes the Tier-3s super pwnmobiles when you add in a once-every-3-minutes 100km blink? This isn't rhetorical, I really have to know what makes the Teir-3s that much more overpowered than Command ships


Is it like, sniping in lowsec? Because if you think that would be game-breakingly overpowered you can do this in a battleship with: better tank, same damage, same range, align time within 10% of an attack BC, with an MJD and MWD - which would actually be nontrivial on most of the sniping tier-3s.

Enlighten me.

~