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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#741 - 2014-05-18 15:31:07 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Knew I was right

welcome to team 'i told you so', have a t-shirt.


Hey, I thought we had agreed on a commemorative plaque?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#742 - 2014-05-18 15:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dave Stark wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Knew I was right

welcome to team 'i told you so', have a t-shirt.

Who do we lobby to get this in the NeX? P

Aiphona wrote:
You are forcing JF pilots to buy 2 T2 rigs for 1.48 BILLION to fly the SAME ship that aligns 16 seconds slower!!
I had the same reaction first, but remember that they're giving base stats. Align time, in particular, drops dramatically once you factor in all the agility bonuses you collect on your way to JFs.

Look at this for where you end up with all-Vs. In practice, most JFs go up about 6 seconds in their align time when all is said and done.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#743 - 2014-05-18 15:34:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I haven't caught up on the entire thread yet (still working through page 19) but I wanted to quickly let you guys know that the mass values that were previously listed in the OP for freighters were a mistake on the forum post. We never changed the freighter mass values, and have no intention of preventing them from travelling through highsec wormholes.

The numbers are now corrected in the OP.

Ok, back to reading the rest of the thread. I'll let you guys know when I'm caught up.


It's good to see that you at least listen to the CSM advocate for WH's.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#744 - 2014-05-18 15:35:15 UTC
Ammzi wrote:


I am pretty sure you can dig up every single "buff freighter, give them rigs/modules" thread in the past 12 months and EVERY single one of them will have the "CCP could do that, but they would take something away to counter - is that what you want?"

That is not "some players, warned by handful of others". That is every single on-this-forum advocate being warned about it.
~told you so~


The most important part of what you said was rigs AND MODS!!.

Are we getting mods so we get the flexibility we wanted at the cost of paying for rigs and mods....NO!

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#745 - 2014-05-18 15:40:22 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Ammzi wrote:


I am pretty sure you can dig up every single "buff freighter, give them rigs/modules" thread in the past 12 months and EVERY single one of them will have the "CCP could do that, but they would take something away to counter - is that what you want?"

That is not "some players, warned by handful of others". That is every single on-this-forum advocate being warned about it.
~told you so~


The most important part of what you said was rigs AND MODS!!.

Are we getting mods so we get the flexibility we wanted at the cost of paying for rigs and mods....NO!


Why are you asking to get nerfed even further?

I mean, if they gave it even one lowslot they'd have to cut it's tank by about 40%. Nevermind everything else.

Or do you just not get it yet? You are not getting a net buff out of this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Gumpy Bitterhawk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#746 - 2014-05-18 15:43:43 UTC
Loki Feiht wrote:
I suppose this could set the stage for a new tech 2 freighter with a similar principle in mind to the old deep space transports (ie lower capacity but very tough)


So people need to have two 7billion isk ships to get their hauling (i mean work) done? Yeah sure that'll make it all easier lol.
Dave stark
#747 - 2014-05-18 15:43:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You are not getting a net buff out of this.

they are. they're only going to get it to 1 stat, not all of them.
stoicfaux
#748 - 2014-05-18 15:48:36 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:


The most important part of what you said was rigs AND MODS!!.

Are we getting mods so we get the flexibility we wanted at the cost of paying for rigs and mods....NO!

^^ this ^^

Modules mean we can make choices based on what we need to haul at the moment. Rigs, OTOH, are pretty inflexible.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#749 - 2014-05-18 15:49:50 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:


Are we getting mods so we get the flexibility we wanted at the cost of paying for rigs and mods....NO!


I fear on behalf of all freighter pilots the day they can use a low slot module.

Take a watermelon, let it represent the ehp of a freighter.
Now take an axe to the watermelon and you get to pick the smallest of the two sizes as your new freighter ehp after being given a low slot.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#750 - 2014-05-18 15:52:17 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:


The most important part of what you said was rigs AND MODS!!.

Are we getting mods so we get the flexibility we wanted at the cost of paying for rigs and mods....NO!

^^ this ^^

Modules mean we can make choices based on what we need to haul at the moment. Rigs, OTOH, are pretty inflexible.



Pretty sure that was the point. That way you can't fit warp stabs. Or spend 700K with a DC 2 to vastly increase the effective hitpoints of the ship.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Buzz Dura
S0utherN Comfort
#751 - 2014-05-18 15:52:54 UTC
without at least 2 T1 cargo rig, you can't transport CSAA or ihub...
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#752 - 2014-05-18 15:54:40 UTC
what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters

could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs?

that way i could fly the ship as is...OR..i could have real choice and nerf it myself

so i want extra hull - lose some cargo and align time
i want more cargo - aling time that makes a dead snail look like an f1 racer
pop a vap trimark on there - drop 10% cargo

i dont know what the actual penalties should be but you could make multiple penalties for using a specifc rig...sine its only capital rigs not many to modify...and then have those penalties affect only freighte/JF type ships

you could add specialized penalties to cap rigs for freighters and let US decide what is acceptable nerf

alternately you could do a fulll reblance and put slots on these and not just rigs


i think the best thing that can be done at this point is to withdraw these changes entirely and give this a rethink
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#753 - 2014-05-18 15:56:18 UTC
....And I'm caught up.

Ok thanks to the goodposters in this thread so far. I'll definitely be taking the feedback here into account.

As usual, a friendly reminder that death threats are generally a suboptimal way of convincing someone of the correctness of your perspective.

I'm seeing some good feedback about the unique role of Jump Freighters meaning that they don't get much benefit from rigs other than cargo rigs, and this is indeed a problem that limits player choice. I'm going to bring up a few ways to help solve that issue with the other designers early next week.

I do want to clarify that although it's very possible that a lot of these numbers can change, we're not going to simply give JFs a gigantic buff to their cargoholds and call it a day. The fast movement of goods across the galaxy has its advantages and also its disadvantages, and we are not going to simply let power creep get out of control in this area.

I'll be continuing to read this thread, chatting with the CSM and the other designers here and I'm confident we'll get to the best possible version of these changes.

Thanks!

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#754 - 2014-05-18 15:56:59 UTC
Regan Rotineque wrote:
what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters

could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs?
…thereby nerfing all capital ships rather than just balance freighters? Yeah, no.
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#755 - 2014-05-18 15:59:34 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

I'm seeing some good feedback about the unique role of Jump Freighters meaning that they don't get much benefit from rigs other than cargo rigs, and this is indeed a problem that limits player choice. I'm going to bring up a few ways to help solve that issue with the other designers early next week.

Three words:
Fuel Consumption Rigs
or
Jump Range Rigs

There's literally no other meaningful choices to be had.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
Gumpy Bitterhawk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#756 - 2014-05-18 16:00:47 UTC
Buzz Dura wrote:
without at least 2 T1 cargo rig, you can't transport CSAA or ihub...




Nice point. And what about high tier ihub upgrades? You already need a freighter to carry some of these, cause jf's holds are too small for those.
Lair Osen
#757 - 2014-05-18 16:01:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Regan Rotineque wrote:
what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters

could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs?
…thereby nerfing all capital ships rather than just balance freighters? Yeah, no.


I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed?
Aiphona
Alien Mindbenders
#758 - 2014-05-18 16:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiphona
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tippia wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
T1 rigs are easily enough to bring normal freighters above their current cargo values.

Yes, but I fly a JF. I picked it because of its nippy align speed, good tank, and descent-enough cargo hold. I can restore one of those at a massive cost.


Actually the tank on your JF is about the same as before, thanks to the extra resists. So you get one of the three for free! Blink

But yes, the fact that this is a small reduction in Jump Freighter power is completely intended.



Your not'"giving" anything if the tank is still the same.
This is turning things around.
All you did is TAKE the Agility and Cargospace away and make us pay 1.5 Billion to get 1 of those back.
And that for a 7 Billion isk Ship.

At least make it so we can get back at the old level with T1 rigs.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#759 - 2014-05-18 16:02:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
....And I'm caught up.

Ok thanks to the goodposters in this thread so far. I'll definitely be taking the feedback here into account.

As usual, a friendly reminder that death threats are generally a suboptimal way of convincing someone of the correctness of your perspective.

I'm seeing some good feedback about the unique role of Jump Freighters meaning that they don't get much benefit from rigs other than cargo rigs, and this is indeed a problem that limits player choice. I'm going to bring up a few ways to help solve that issue with the other designers early next week.

I do want to clarify that although it's very possible that a lot of these numbers can change, we're not going to simply give JFs a gigantic buff to their cargoholds and call it a day. The fast movement of goods across the galaxy has its advantages and also its disadvantages, and we are not going to simply let power creep get out of control in this area.

I'll be continuing to read this thread, chatting with the CSM and the other designers here and I'm confident we'll get to the best possible version of these changes.

Thanks!


any thoughts on the JF tanking bonuses i mentioned?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#760 - 2014-05-18 16:03:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The big nullsec alliances weren't particularly fussed about industry being local — they just wanted null industry to not be a thoroughly braindead proposition... .


Lets repeat what you said, your comment was actually trolling yourself, because improving industry in null sec means what? I know making it more effective to do it locally, so they have better refining and at last slots to do it.

The changes being imposed by Fozzie are in fact to make sure that null sec entities cannot use their new advantages to destroy hisec manufacturing because transport becomes an even bigger cost element and if the nullsec entities make their manufacturing closer to hisec then they can be disrupted.

While I don't like the impact for me, the actual change at the game balance level makes sense.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp