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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

First post First post First post
Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#761 - 2014-05-18 16:04:27 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:
I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed?

It sounds like he wants more.

And still, that's an even simpler answer: because they have to keep the freighters balanced even after the bonuses that rigs will provide.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#762 - 2014-05-18 16:05:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lair Osen wrote:
I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed?

It sounds like he wants more.

And still, that's an even simpler answer: because they have to keep the freighters balanced even after the bonuses that rigs will provide.



are cargohold rigs stacking penalized?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#763 - 2014-05-18 16:06:28 UTC
Gamer4liff wrote:

Jump Range Rigs


unsubbing all accounts
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#764 - 2014-05-18 16:06:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dracvlad wrote:
Lets repeat what you said
…and notice that it is not even remotely what you claimed I said. That was just some nonsense you made up because you couldn't provide any kind of coherent point or counter-argument.

Quote:
The changes being imposed by Fozzie are in fact
“In fact?” What do you base that on?

Harvey James wrote:
are cargohold rigs stacking penalized?
Not as far as I know. They don't say anything to the effect and none of the fitting tools apply any such penalties.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#765 - 2014-05-18 16:07:01 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Regan Rotineque wrote:
what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters

could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs?
…thereby nerfing all capital ships rather than just balance freighters? Yeah, no.


I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed?


if that is what he means then i would like to point out that the penalties on rigs are small and can further be halved by skills.

leaving the stats alone and just adding rigs slots is an absolute buff and power creep. Freighters dnt need buffs, and power creep is bad.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#766 - 2014-05-18 16:07:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Regan Rotineque wrote:
what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters

could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs?
…thereby nerfing all capital ships rather than just balance freighters? Yeah, no.



keep reading tippia

i said later that the penalties apply to freighter and jump freighter class vessels
Dave Stark
#767 - 2014-05-18 16:07:17 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lair Osen wrote:
I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed?

It sounds like he wants more.

And still, that's an even simpler answer: because they have to keep the freighters balanced even after the bonuses that rigs will provide.



are cargohold rigs stacking penalized?

not that i'm aware of.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#768 - 2014-05-18 16:09:16 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

any thoughts on the JF tanking bonuses i mentioned?


It's an interesting idea, potentially combined with some other tank changes.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#769 - 2014-05-18 16:09:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lair Osen wrote:
I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed?

It sounds like he wants more.

And still, that's an even simpler answer: because they have to keep the freighters balanced even after the bonuses that rigs will provide.



are cargohold rigs stacking penalized?

not that i'm aware of.


I also believe that the answer is no.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#770 - 2014-05-18 16:09:22 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Lair Osen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Regan Rotineque wrote:
what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters

could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs?
…thereby nerfing all capital ships rather than just balance freighters? Yeah, no.


I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed?


if that is what he means then i would like to point out that the penalties on rigs are small and can further be halved by skills.

leaving the stats alone and just adding rigs slots is an absolute buff and power creep. Freighters dnt need buffs, and power creep is bad.



penalties can be increased or skills not applied if necessary

the point of my post is to try to actually give some choice to the ship owner
the current model is to nerf everyone...increase the price of the ships as you have to buy rigs to get back what you had
im saying leave me what i had and let ME chose what nerf I want
stoicfaux
#771 - 2014-05-18 16:12:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Pretty sure that was the point. That way you can't fit warp stabs. Or spend 700K with a DC 2 to vastly increase the effective hitpoints of the ship.

Or just prohibit DCs from being used on freighters.

The alternative, as you mentioned earlier, would be to reduce EHP by X% to compensate for the ability to mount a DC II so that freighters don't get a ridiculous tank buff. (But I really would not want to have to manually activate a DC after every jump, hence the suggestion to prohibit DCs on freighters.)

And WTF is wrong with putting warp stabs on a freighter?


Anyway, the point still stands; rigs aren't flexible enough to provide freighters with the desired level of customization based on what you're hauling at the time.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Pj Harvey
Red DUST Industries.
#772 - 2014-05-18 16:12:44 UTC
In an age where you can't autopilot through high sec without a good chance of being suicide ganked, you make freighters even more fragile?

I keep seeing a pattern these days in the changes you make, it's like you want everything to be more expensive and less durable, probably with the aim of selling more PLEX.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#773 - 2014-05-18 16:13:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

any thoughts on the JF tanking bonuses i mentioned?


It's an interesting idea, potentially combined with some other tank changes.


Is the overall plan with these rebalances to buff local industry and make it difficult to export to highsec and vice versa?
Usually a few paragraphs are posted in your rebalancing threads to review your reasoning, this thread seems to lack it.
Care to elaborate a bit on the reasoning? I am sure people would be a bit more understanding then when they realize it's not the goal to end up with a net buff.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#774 - 2014-05-18 16:14:23 UTC
Pj Harvey wrote:
In an age where you can't autopilot through high sec without a good chance of being suicide ganked, you make freighters even more fragile?

I keep seeing a pattern these days in the changes you make, it's like you want everything to be more expensive and less durable, probably with the aim of selling more PLEX.


What chance/risk? As long as you don't carry stupendous amounts of high value cargo then it's pretty unlikely for you to get ganked.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#775 - 2014-05-18 16:15:20 UTC
Regan Rotineque wrote:
keep reading tippia

i said later that the penalties apply to freighter and jump freighter class vessels

That effectively means you're creating a completely separate rig class, which means you've now created more problems and balance issues through your solution. Is the creation of that problem worth it for solving your first perceived issue?

Like I said earlier in the thread, if a “solution” cascades into new problems that have to have their own special unique tweaks and solutions, chances are that it's not a good solution to begin with, especially when there's already a perfectly serviceable way out.

Quote:
the point of my post is to try to actually give some choice to the ship owner
You have plenty of choice. The entire problem is that some people assumed all along that being given choice would itself come without a cost, but that was never going to happen — choice itself is too valuable, and the full array of choices you can make have to fit in the overall balance of the game.

Quote:
im saying leave me what i had and let ME chose what nerf I want
This solution lets you do that. You're just unhappy with the size of the nerfs your choice leaves you with.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#776 - 2014-05-18 16:15:32 UTC
Honestly, all of you people up in arms over this... there's something you should take into account that should give most of you pause in your opposition:

You are agreeing with Gevlon "I have never been right about anything in EVE, ever" Goblin.

Think about this, and hang your heads in shame. Twisted
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#777 - 2014-05-18 16:17:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Ammzi wrote:


I am pretty sure you can dig up every single "buff freighter, give them rigs/modules" thread in the past 12 months and EVERY single one of them will have the "CCP could do that, but they would take something away to counter - is that what you want?"

That is not "some players, warned by handful of others". That is every single on-this-forum advocate being warned about it.
~told you so~


The most important part of what you said was rigs AND MODS!!.

Are we getting mods so we get the flexibility we wanted at the cost of paying for rigs and mods....NO!


Why are you asking to get nerfed even further?

I mean, if they gave it even one lowslot they'd have to cut it's tank by about 40%. Nevermind everything else.

Or do you just not get it yet? You are not getting a net buff out of this.


The ONLY people claiming I expected a net buff out of this is you and your kind. I expected them to set it up so that when you rigged and modded your freighter you could get it to exactly the same level of defense, maneuverability, capacity...etc...etc...etc as you do now. I even proposed freighter only rigs and mods to avoid unforeseeable consequences of adding rigs, lows, mids, and highs to freighters.

As i told another poster like yourself, please dont put words into my mouth I never said ("You are not getting a net buff out of this."). I know that speaking for both participants in an argument sure makes winning them easy and if people have let you get away with this cheap form of argumentation in the past I can assure you will not be repeating their mistake.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#778 - 2014-05-18 16:18:39 UTC
Pj Harvey wrote:
In an age where you can't autopilot through high sec without a good chance of being suicide ganked, you make freighters even more fragile?

I keep seeing a pattern these days in the changes you make, it's like you want everything to be more expensive and less durable, probably with the aim of selling more PLEX.


We worked out that there are greater chances of you being struck by lightning in RL than getting ganked. Unless you do something silly like stuffing 10 billion in the hold.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#779 - 2014-05-18 16:19:28 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Pretty sure that was the point. That way you can't fit warp stabs. Or spend 700K with a DC 2 to vastly increase the effective hitpoints of the ship.

Or just prohibit DCs from being used on freighters.

The alternative, as you mentioned earlier, would be to reduce EHP by X% to compensate for the ability to mount a DC II so that freighters don't get a ridiculous tank buff. (But I really would not want to have to manually activate a DC after every jump, hence the suggestion to prohibit DCs on freighters.)


And if they did that, it would be pretty much mandatory to put DC2s on your freighter, otherwise you can get ganked by 3 Vexors.

In such a case, why change anything? To make people feel better? Psh.

Quote:

And WTF is wrong with putting warp stabs on a freighter?


If they were intended to have them, they would have lowslots. I for one, would be very happy if freighters (and especially jump freighters) were not invincible.

Quote:

Anyway, the point still stands; rigs aren't flexible enough to provide freighters with the desired level of customization based on what you're hauling at the time.


Pretty sure they will never give you that option to tailor your freighters so thoroughly. Few enough of them die as it is without letting you freely refit for tank 2 jumps before Uedama or Perimeter.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#780 - 2014-05-18 16:19:38 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lair Osen wrote:
I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed?

It sounds like he wants more.

And still, that's an even simpler answer: because they have to keep the freighters balanced even after the bonuses that rigs will provide.



are cargohold rigs stacking penalized?



No, neither are low slot cargo expanders