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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

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SpaceSaft
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#61 - 2014-05-17 19:42:32 UTC
I don't get what the goal is.

If you've got special goods you'd use the new specialised industrials and stab them, if you want to transport something in a secure way, you scout anyway and can then take advantage of the superior cargo capacity / isk relation of other ships.
The +2 warp core strength is exactly good against one guy at most, if you're getting camped you die just like the lower tier versions, except slower. The MJD gets you out of nowhere really since spool up is 12s (- seconds for skills, no idea what you have planned there). Which is how much slower/faster than warping off? Why would I want this kind of ship?

Can't you make them immune to bubbles and scram have them take a long time to warp with best skills? Because in that case tank would make sense and it would be a fun thing to chase that transport from gate to gate, beating him down every time.

No really I don't get it, I wouldn't fly one. Not sold on the idea.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2014-05-17 19:50:43 UTC
I'm inclined to agree on an agility boost when you consider the nerf to the JF.
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#63 - 2014-05-17 19:52:26 UTC
Interesting changes, but I second the idea of allowing DST to launch POS and their modules. Its a huge disadvantage.
Giving them some lowered spool up time for MJD would be very nice too.
Pashino
Venice Academy
#64 - 2014-05-17 19:57:17 UTC
SpaceSaft wrote:
Can't you make them immune to bubbles and scram have them take a long time to warp with best skills? Because in that case tank would make sense and it would be a fun thing to chase that transport from gate to gate, beating him down every time.


This was more along the lines that I was pitching in the earlier discussion thread - essentially make them slow juggernauts, unstoppable aside from raw firepower. Dev solution to the vulnerability of bumping seems to be the new MJD but as pointed out, alert gate camps will handle that fine. Current solution is a considerable improvement and should allow them to shrug off small fry/poorly thought out gate camps but not much else. The new setup will work well compared to before for escorted scenarios, but the question has to be asked of the devs whether they expect these DST's to be used solo much or just within the framework of a corp or fleet.

If the answer is 'corp/fleet/escort', then only change really needed is resolving the POS deploying problem.

If they expect us to use these flying solo, then we're still pretty far short of the mark.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2014-05-17 20:11:32 UTC
Finally a reason to buy a Bustard. BattleBustard, here i come!
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-05-17 20:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dramaticus
The EASes of the industrial world

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Kniht
#67 - 2014-05-17 20:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kniht
CynoNet Two wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
The weedy cargo means DSTs can no longer handle starbase mods - you can't scoop / launch them from a fleet hangar. What about a slightly bigger base cargo, around 3-4k?

If the additional WCS role bonus doesn't protect the MJD, these things aren't going to live long. The spool time is more than long enough to be webbed + scrambled, and no amount of overheating will help then. What about instead of 5% velocity per level, they get -5% to MJD spool time bonus per level?


They can tank 2-3k dps


Can they tank like that until the next downtime? Because with a scram+web they ain't going anywhere but a killboard.

Does no one use scouts for haulers with expensive cargo anymore?

We don't need a hauler that's solo-invulnerable in every case. Risk vs reward; choose the right hauling strategy for the situation.

o/ fly crazy
Kniht
#68 - 2014-05-17 20:27:38 UTC
Neutral Jita Hauler wrote:
So why are we going through the gimmick of a fleet hanger instead of just giving them a 'general goods' bay ala the rebalanced t1's?


If you don't want fleet/corp to have access to your Fleet Hangar, just turn those off. And then it's "General Goods" that you want.

o/ fly crazy
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#69 - 2014-05-17 20:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Why don't you just make DPT able to carry more and be gain the speed and tank to get out of interdictor bubbles? Make them immune to webs.

Make them into what they should be, tanky tranports that can survive a gate camp.

They should be useful for setting up a customs office and gain enough cargobay space to do that at least. Blockade runners can't do that.

Why should they be used for only hauling one thing? *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#70 - 2014-05-17 20:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
I do not think there is a "right hauling strategy" that involves the DST. Seriously, what would you use this thing for?

The current scale of hauling ships goes something like this:

1. Interceptor -

Pros: properly fit, essentially cannot be caught, except by smart bombs.
Cons: Small cargo hold.

2. T3 cruiser -

Pros: properly fit, cannot be caught, except by lag.
Cons: cost, but that is going down. Decent cargo hold to carry expensive dead space mod to market.

3. Blockade runner -

Pros - hard to catch, but not impossible. MWD+cloak+warp works most of the time.
Cons - can be caught by a skilled interdictor + decloaker combination. Can only haul 10k worth of stuff, which is more than enough for most purposes.

4. Deep Space Transport -

Pros - Can haul 50-62.5K m3 worth of cargo.
Cons - while it is not a complete sitting duck, it can be caught.

5. Orca

Pros - can haul a good amount, can refit to a variety of different fits.
Cons - expensive

6. Freighter - sitting duck outside of high sec, big loot piñata inside of high sec. Unless you are Titan bridging them, irrelevant for 0.0 hauling.

7. Jump Freighter - about to get even more expensive.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-05-17 20:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Um if any part of your hauling plan involves tanking then your plan is pretty *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-05-17 20:49:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
While I like the concept, I don't really see the point. The only thing this might get used for is moving deadspace/officer mods on fitted ships in the fleet hanger in hisec since they won't be scannable. But that's not really a deep space thing, and people are more likely to use a blockade runner/t3 for that anyway.

In nullsec (deep space), these things will die to the first half decent camp they come across plain and simple. Sure, you can escort them. But I can escort a badger just as well, and for a lot less isk to boot.

Maybe take a look at the clone vat bay idea? It would give them a deep space role, and the clone vat bay is (probably) massively under-utilized anyway.

Dramaticus wrote:
Um if any part of your hauling plan involves tanking then your plan is pretty *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.

Pretty much this.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#73 - 2014-05-17 20:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CynoNet Two wrote:
The weedy cargo means DSTs can no longer handle starbase mods - you can't scoop / launch them from a fleet hangar. What about a slightly bigger base cargo, around 3-4k?

If the additional WCS role bonus doesn't protect the MJD, these things aren't going to live long. The spool time is more than long enough to be webbed + scrambled, and no amount of overheating will help then. What about instead of 5% velocity per level, they get -5% to MJD spool time bonus per level?


Exactly. These are of poor design and their equal cargoholds will make one better than the others.

How about instead of all these transports being so similar, they make them different?

If it is not possble to do this simplest and most reasonable thing and give them larger cargobay, make each one have a separate cargo designed for something different. One could be for carrying customs offices and planetary commities. Another for starbase components ect.

A MJD isn't going to do anything against gate camp. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.. It needs web immunity to get out of bubbles.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Irya Boone
The Scope
#74 - 2014-05-17 20:55:41 UTC
The DST have a +2 warp core strenght does it means the MJD will still be active if you put only one or 2 points on the ship or Only need to scramble It ( like usual) to cut off the MJD?

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-05-17 20:57:45 UTC
Irya Boone wrote:
The DST have a +2 warp core strenght does it means the MJD will still be active if you put only one or 2 points on the ship or Only need to scramble It ( like usual) to cut off the MJD?

The MJD will be disabled by any scrambler (not longpoint) regardless of warp core strength or applied points, just like the MWD.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#76 - 2014-05-17 21:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Yes I can't quite be sure why deploying POS structures is being overlooked at the moment. I don't understand on the fleet hangar over discreet cargo bay either. Not quite sure what CCP is up to here. Perhaps a design philosophy post is in order. Otherwise make sure we can launch towers and other structures from the fleet hangar.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#77 - 2014-05-17 21:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyshonuba
It doesn't look like a good change for high sec haulers/industrialist

Rite now, before the change, only T2 deep space transports can haul valuable goods above 20.000 m³ .....and ii f you know how to fit them (hint: cloaky warp trick) you can even fly them through the (gank/) gates of niarja and uedama.

in high sec, PI/module/loot /ammo haulers have this kind of problem because the tech 1 industrials are gank targets as soon as they transport goods above 40.000.000 ISK. The only option for valauable stuff beyond the freighter will now be the blockade runner. ..which means 50% less cargo capacity. ( unless you wanna call a 400m³ courrier tengu an industrial ship)
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2014-05-17 21:14:09 UTC
These are... ughh... changes...

None of which make these any more viable...

Would be nice to at least be able to launch pos stuff with them... I guess... if you're ever using these at all...
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#79 - 2014-05-17 21:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
What if a long point slowed down the spool time for the mjd giving you Time to get close enough to activate the scram?

Think of the warp inhibitors in sins of a solar empire

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2014-05-17 21:27:36 UTC
Kyshonuba wrote:
It doesn't look like a good change for high sec haulers/industrialist

Rite now, before the change, only T2 deep space transports can haul valuable goods above 20.000 m³ .....and ii f you know how to fit them (hint: cloaky warp trick) you can even fly them through the (gank/) gates of niarja and uedama.

in high sec, PI/module/loot /ammo haulers have this kind of problem because the tech 1 industrials are gank targets as soon as they transport goods above 40.000.000 ISK. The only option for valauable stuff beyond the freighter will now be the blockade runner. ..which means 50% less cargo capacity. ( unless you wanna call a 400m³ courrier tengu an industrial ship)


I don't understand your post. After the change, DST will be able to haul 50.000m3 (+5% per skill) while having a ~80k EHP tank with a ~12 second align time. Seems like a buff to me.