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Dev Blog: Researching, the Future: Stupidity

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DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#81 - 2014-05-06 23:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
Weaselior wrote:
DireNecessity wrote:

As always, the devil is in the details . . .

Weaselior, care to toss out a purely speculative number of what a sane Titan BPO research to perfect time would be? 6 months? 2 years? The idea being that we start with the top end and build research rank times down from there.

T'would be sweet to discover that there's less dispute about the end goal than initially thought.


Probably 3 years or so. It's a pretty tiny benefit and so there's no real need to make it completely infesible to get there.


Damn, that seems pretty reasonable. Not exactly easy, but if you're playing the long game certainly within reach.

OK my turn . . .

My off the cuff thought on Battleship research time would be 3 or 4 months for the final 9->10 material efficiency in an NPC station. (I'll let a math guru calculate what that would mean for 0 to perfect.) Given the new system's shifting labor & team availability it seems entirely possible a Battleship BPO might go fallow for a month or two. Tossing it in a safe NPC station for roughly double that time keeps it working for you (it's not producing but it's improving) without pulling it out of useful production for a painful long period of time. Please proceed to thrash me if you think I'm way off.

Special note - much shorter research times absolutely crushes one aspect of the current blueprint copy market which is built on the insane amount of time it takes to squeeze minimal affect (but stunning looking!) additional ME/TE numbers into a BPO. I'll be saddened to see that disappear (along with the deliciously scammy option to research BPOs beyond perfect).
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#82 - 2014-05-07 13:52:52 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Shoogie wrote:


mynnna, you really need to learn reading comprehension.

virtually anytime some pubbie says this it's because their argument has been blown out of the water and so their only response left is to stick their fingers in their ears and keep repeating their argument and ignoring the gurgling sounds as everyone on their ideaship drowns and suffers a horrible death until the intelligent people tire and leave

your post is no exception


That is kind of funny. You call me a pubbie in one post, and then two posts later agree with me.

Mynna's post was off topic from everything else in this thread.
Baldeagle AirForce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#83 - 2014-05-07 14:43:33 UTC
My issue with the changes is how am I going to make profit from a invented BPC? Right now I buy most of the T2 components and I use a decrptor. Which lets me make some ISK. But with wastage getting boosted what do I do to make profit? Am I missing something? Thanks!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#84 - 2014-05-07 16:26:31 UTC
deal with it. Wastage is stupid. Over-researched BPOs are stupid. Rescaling ME and adjusting the incremental time keeps things largely the same while having them make far more sense. I will not miss this at all.

There's plenty of extra complexity being added elsewhere in the process anyway.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Baldeagle AirForce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2014-05-07 22:57:26 UTC
deal with it. Wastage is stupid. Over-researched BPOs are stupid. Rescaling ME and adjusting the incremental time keeps things largely the same while having them make far more sense. I will not miss this at all.

There's plenty of extra complexity being added elsewhere in the process anyway.

I'll try to look at it this way.
P Arkanian
Rolling Pebbles
#86 - 2014-05-12 18:57:35 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
P Arkanian wrote:
TL;DR: research time is what players invest, and that's what should be preserved in converting old-style PBOs to new style ones; that requires partially researched BPOs (just like skills). Once we have partially researched BPOs, they can be used to implement shorter, manageable jobs just they are now even for the latest levels in research.


Which could have easily been achieved by converting ME to a float and hiding it behind the UI.


Agreed. It seems that the difference between a "4%ME BPO 56% researched" and a "4.56%ME BPO" is minimal. Still, I'd stress that all 4%ME BPOs have the same material efficiency. That, to preserve the "it takes longer and longer time before you can see the benefits" model that CCP seems to want. In my proposal the efficiency of a 4.56%ME BPO would be 4%. The fractional parts represents only the amount of research time towards the next level.

CCP said they wanted to make it closer to how skills work: skills have levels and progress to the next one. There no such a thing as Logistics at 4.75. It's 4 or 5. But you can have Logistics trained 3/4 the way from 4 to 5.

CCP is changing three things:

1) the interface;
2) the time needed to research a BPO to perfect;
3) the ratio between what you gain / time it takes to get it.

For the sake of this discussion, let's ignore 1). I love nice interfaces, and hate click-fests, but that's not my point here.

They're changing 3). Ok. Each level is 1%, it takes more time to research higher levels. It used to be the same time for each level, but the first levels had bigger effect. Is it simpler, better? I don't know. Getting rid of wastage and extra materials sounds fine to me.

IMHO the major point here is still 2). CCP decided to change the time it takes to research a blueprint. Our priority should be to discuss how to preserve investments done by players. It makes little sense that some ME4 and ME7 BPOs get converted to exactly the same BPO after the change, especially when the difference in research times are so big (it's not a few hours matter).

It gives unfair and random advantage to some players. Sometimes, with changes, it's inevitable. Still, when possible, it should be avoided.

So, is it really inevitable? I proposed a solution. Even if it's not accepted/acceptable, should we pay that price just to get a simpler(?) game mechanism? Was the old one bad enough to justify the introduction of such unfair advantages in the game?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#87 - 2014-05-12 19:48:50 UTC
Baldeagle AirForce wrote:
My issue with the changes is how am I going to make profit from a invented BPC? Right now I buy most of the T2 components and I use a decrptor. Which lets me make some ISK. But with wastage getting boosted what do I do to make profit? Am I missing something? Thanks!

Yes, you are missing something: the changes are not going to effect only you.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#88 - 2014-05-12 20:18:54 UTC
My only real issue with this is that the 10 levels mean you probably won't be able to do research in stages (unless that have the ability to partly research it). That means where now we might do a couple of levels now and then when there's a slot free, we'll now have to decide to do a full level or nothing. It would be nice to be able to part-research, even if that gave no immediate benefit.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#89 - 2014-05-12 20:40:44 UTC
Thanks ccp for waiting till under a month away to postpone the indy changes. Alot of people had been getting ready only to have to wait more than a extra month.
Ellie Sertan
Big Red Sun Inc.
#90 - 2014-05-13 14:19:57 UTC
I'm sorry, I didn't realize the new updates would bring a new generation of whiners.
stoicfaux
#91 - 2014-05-13 14:37:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Of course, if we're wrong, and everything collapses back into steady-state solutions, adding complexity is the easiest thing in game design :)

Wake me when you add 50 shades of gray to WiS...

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#92 - 2014-05-13 15:41:37 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Hey, I missed this thread.

The OP and everyone in the thread whining about things being "too simple" are idiots. I suspect they're the types of people who rely on the poorly designed UI and stuff like that to remain competitive and squak about that being "difficulty" because they're willing to deal with it. But when that's gone and the actual difficulty in industry comes from mastering the process, optimizing your build costs within the new system and so forth, they'll be outclassed and unable to compete.

As it should be.

*drops mic*

what exactly is there to 'master' and 'optimize' when the UI literally tells you your projected profits?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#93 - 2014-05-13 21:25:53 UTC
Dr Grant wrote:
It appears CCP is dumbing down Research. Instead of ME/PE we get Level 1-10 in each in category and that is it. Blueprint Copies will be be made so fast, that they can be used just as well as BPOs.



I believe it is 0-10 isn't it?

If you are going to argue, at least get the facts correct in the OP
Meytal
Doomheim
#94 - 2014-05-14 19:57:49 UTC
Partial progress: each level contains a set number of sub-level units. For simplicy, assume ME 0 -> 1 contains 10 units. If the particular blueprint at perfect efficiency can be researched at the rate of one unit per minute, then this blueprint can be researched to ME 1 in 10 minutes. ME 1 -> 2 could require twice as many sub-level research units, etc.

If I stop it at 5 minutes and 47 seconds, I would have only 5 units of research toward ME 1 performed, losing 47 seconds of research time. For the convenience of starting and stopping at will, a minimal setback like that is acceptable; after all, you're interrupting your scientists, breaking their concentration, and rushing them out of the lab.

(Perhaps it should also be possible to queue the job to be stopped at the next closest sub-level research unit.)

Then if you're researching that Titan BPO and you're about to lose the POS or lose control over the research Outpost, you can stop the job, move the BPO, and start it up again somewhere else with a minor but non-catastrophic loss of research time.

For the initial conversion, all research time could (should) be preserved, with no one gaining research, and no one losing research except what was beyond "perfect".


Incidentally, what might have helped with the old "over-researched" BPO issue is to list the Perfect ME and Perfect PE/TE numbers, as well as indicate the difference in material requirements of the current BPO compared to a perfect BPO.