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Dev Blog: Researching, the Future: Stupidity

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Author
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2014-05-02 20:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Shoogie wrote:

Look at a titan blueprint. There are probably a few ME5 titan blueprints out there. There are certainly a few ME4 blueprints out there, and quite a few at ME3. On patch day, everyone with an ME5 blueprint automagically gets an ME 9% blueprint. Everyone with an ME4 blueprint gets handed an ME 8% blueprint. Everyone with an ME3 blueprint gets an ME 7% blueprint.

So in the future some upstart wants to challenge the null sec status quo. They buy a blueprint and research it for 8 months before starting to build. Assuming Metallurgy 5, they will end up with an ME 6% blueprint. The existing blueprints needed to be researched too, so this is fair so far.

However, when they try to get level 7% to match the existing blueprints, they are going to get a quote that says this job is going to take an additional 10 months, 25 days. If they are silly enough to do this, they will see that level 8% takes an additional 2 years and 48 days. If they are silly enough to do that, level 9% will take an additional 5 years 25 days. If they are silly enough to do that, level 10% will take an additional 12 years 14 days.

this is all true, but i believe it's more evidence that the proposed scaling for research on titans is obscene

the scaling may just be a little too harsh on the high end overall but it's only with supercaps that it goes from harsh to impossible

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Khan'nikki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2014-05-04 21:33:23 UTC
Quote:

However, when they try to get level 7% to match the existing blueprints, they are going to get a quote that says this job is going to take an additional 10 months, 25 days. If they are silly enough to do this, they will see that level 8% takes an additional 2 years and 48 days. If they are silly enough to do that, level 9% will take an additional 5 years 25 days. If they are silly enough to do that, level 10% will take an additional 12 years 14 days.


This could be taken care of with Project Chunking - breaking down a big project task among the distributed brain power of contributors. Something Project Management could have done. Instead of how far you can start a job it would be how many resources you can put to work - scientists or builders.

It would make higher end stuff more available. It would be the popular move.

Also, if you have the ability to run 8 material research jobs, why not run all 8 on the same one task thru Project Task Focus. It would be a multiplier for the individual. If you are a dedicated metallurgist this would help you.

Thanks!


ST0NER SMURF
Vrix Nation
#63 - 2014-05-05 08:52:07 UTC
whats the formula on capital blueprints with me research ?

i see dif stuff around

but a me 6 freighter wil be ?

and whats the researchtimes after the patch

__________________________________________________________________ 

♫ When your pod gets blown to bits ♪♫ And you lose your implant fits ♪\☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/

mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2014-05-05 12:58:08 UTC
Hey, I missed this thread.

The OP and everyone in the thread whining about things being "too simple" are idiots. I suspect they're the types of people who rely on the poorly designed UI and stuff like that to remain competitive and squak about that being "difficulty" because they're willing to deal with it. But when that's gone and the actual difficulty in industry comes from mastering the process, optimizing your build costs within the new system and so forth, they'll be outclassed and unable to compete.

As it should be.

*drops mic*

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#65 - 2014-05-05 16:24:09 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Hey, I missed this thread.

The OP and everyone in the thread whining about things being "too simple" are idiots. I suspect they're the types of people who rely on the poorly designed UI and stuff like that to remain competitive and squak about that being "difficulty" because they're willing to deal with it. But when that's gone and the actual difficulty in industry comes from mastering the process, optimizing your build costs within the new system and so forth, they'll be outclassed and unable to compete.

As it should be.

*drops mic*


mynnna, you really need to learn reading comprehension.

Our problems with the new research system:

1) IT DOES NOT SIMPLIFY ANYTHING.
* The old formula 1/(10*(1+ME) was not difficult. You can even drop the 1+ for a quick approximation. ME 10 was approximately 1/100 inefficient. ME 20 was approximately 1/200 inefficient. Sure, the new way: ME5 is 5% worse than "perfect". ME8 is 2% worse than "perfect". Is slightly better, BUT, neither of those approximations really tell you the true story because of rounding. You use a discrete number of each raw material. Did 7% really save anything over 6%?
* So you still need to actually look at the bills of materials. Currently, if you want to build something and there are two BPCs in contracts, you can show info on them and compare. Otherwise, you can plug it into a spreadsheet or use a 3rd party tool to tell you what the quantities will be. The new UI change is even better. It allows you to get a quote for blueprints you don't even have. So the information will be available in game. Thank you! We all love it. But that is the UI change, and doesn't have anything to do with the research change.

2) IT REMOVES CHOICES FROM PLAYERS.
* Today, if I am going to go on vacation for a week, I can pick 11 of my favorite blueprints and get 1 week more research on each of them. I get a little warm fuzzy feeling when I deliver them, even if the savings are minimal.
* In the future, research levels will not be granular. If I want to research a battleship blueprint to perfect, it will tie up one of my science lines for over 4 months! I can't afford to do that on my main character who makes me a lot of isk by inventing.
* Today, I can calculate my opportunity cost for researching big blueprints. Researching a freighter blueprint one level would take 33 days. How much profit could I make building from or copying that blueprint instead of researching it for that time? What will the savings be on future freighters if I do this? I have that choice.
* In the future, research times will be so stupidly long that nobody will do it. Should I spend 3 years researching my freighter blueprint? Absolutely not. I'm not sure where I will be in 3 years. Also, in 3 years of expansions, CCP may do something that makes freighters obsolete.

3) NEW PLAYERS WON'T BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH VETERANS
* If you have an ME 5 carrier or dreadnought BPO today, congratulations. You will have a practically permanent 2% advantage over everyone who ever tries to break into the industry in the future, because in the future it would mean 2 years, 2 months of research to get a blueprint to your level.

4) GHOST RESEARCH WILL BECOME A THING
* Locking away a science line for years on my main character will not happen. It precludes me from doing any copying or invention or anything else sciency. However, it is very easy to start a new account, train Metallurgy 5 and Laboratory Operation. Hand over a couple big ticket blueprints to research, and never log the account in again. If the research is done in an NPC station out of a corporate office, then I don't even have to re-activate the account at the end. Just have a director deliver it to get the blueprint back when it is done.

TL:DR
The new research scheme does not deliver on the promise of simplicity.
However, it causes lots of bad things.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#66 - 2014-05-05 20:58:50 UTC
ST0NER SMURF wrote:
whats the formula on capital blueprints with me research ?

i see dif stuff around

but a me 6 freighter wil be ?

and whats the researchtimes after the patch



ME6 before the patch, or ME6 after the patch? They are very different things. ME6 before the patch is approximately equivalent to an ME9 after the patch. ME6 after the patch is about halfway between an ME1 and ME2 before the patch.

The research times are detailed in the Dev Blog. Take the time in seconds from the table and multiply that by the rank of the blueprint to get the total time to research from 0 to that level. I assume if you are going to be doing ME research on high level blueprints you have Metallurgy 5. So multiply all times by 0.75. If you research in an Advanced Mobile Lab in a POS, you can multiply the times again by 0.75. A regular Mobile Laboratory will have a multiplier of 0.7. The Hyasyoda Mobile Lab will have a multiplier of 0.65. Unless explicitly mentioned, I have not counted researching in a POS in the time quotes I have given here or elsewhere, because it seems very dangerous to store capital BPOs in a POS. You also run the risk of taking it down and losing multiple months of research time.

Ranks of all blueprints can be determined by looking at the "research material time" on the blueprint, converting that to seconds, and then dividing by 6000. Orcas are rank 820. Freighters, dreads and Carriers are rank 854. Rorquals are rank 1024. Supercarriers are rank 1707. Titans are rank 3414.

You asked for freighters. So for the rank 854 blueprints here is a chart normalized by how much better than an unresearched blueprint it is:

Benefit.........ME Level and Total Research Time
0%................ME0 both pre and post Kronos. 0 Research Time
1%................ME1 post-Kronos: 18 hours, 41 minutes
2%................ME2 post-Kronos: 1 day, 20 hours
3%................ME3 post-Kronos: 4 days, 10 hours
4%................ME4 post-Kronos: 10 days, 12 hours
5%................ME1 pre-Kronos: 1 month, 14 days or ME5 post-Kronos: 24 days, 22 hours
6%................ME6 post-Kronos: 1 month, 29 days
6.67%..........ME2 pre-Kronos: 2 months, 28 days
7%................ME7 post-Kronos: 4 months, 21 days
7.50%..........ME3 pre-Kronos: 4 months, 12 days
8%................ME4 pre-Kronos: 5 months, 26 days or ME8 post-Kronos: 11 months, 5 days
8.33%..........ME5 pre-Kronos: 7 months, 10 days
8.57%..........ME6 pre-Kronos: 8 months, 24 days
8.75%..........ME7 pre-Kronos: 10 months, 8 days
8.89%..........ME8 pre-Kronos: 11 months, 22 days
9%................ME9 pre-Kronos: 1 year, 1 month, 1 day or ME9 post-Kronos: 2 years, 2 months, 8 days
9.09%..........ME10 pre-Kronos: 1 year, 2 months, 15 days
10%.............ME10 post-Kronos: 5 years, 2 months, 13 days (PERFECT)

Therefore, for a MOROS for example. Pre-Kronos it becomes effectively perfect at ME6. You could research it for 8 months 24 days in an NPC station to get it there. Post-Kronos, you need an ME9 bluprint which will take 2 years, 2 months, 8 days.

This doesn't consider that Pre-Kronos, you can research it in a high-sec POS. That will take only 6 months, 18 days. If you get war-decced, you can take the POS down and you lose at most 32 days of research. Post-Kronos, you can try to research it in a high-sec pos. It would take a total of 1 year, 6 months, 14 days to get to ME9. But then if you get war decced you either risk losing the blueprint itself or over 10 months of research time.


Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#67 - 2014-05-05 22:07:19 UTC
It's the much longer timings that I'm not in favour of because as above if you need to stop the job for whatever reason, you've potentially lost a **** load of research time. I wouldn't mind so much if it goes the same way as skills. That by cancelling the job you simply pause that level of research and continue where left off when you re-enter the job.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.

Ginger Barbarella
#68 - 2014-05-05 22:20:18 UTC
mynnna wrote:


*drops mic*


Feel free to leave the mic on the ground.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

gas guzzler
i'm from the government and i'm here to help
#69 - 2014-05-05 23:24:28 UTC
Shoogie wrote:
[quote=mynnna]Hey, I missed this thread.

4) GHOST RESEARCH WILL BECOME A THING
* Locking away a science line for years on my main character will not happen. It precludes me from doing any copying or invention or anything else sciency. However, it is very easy to start a new account, train Metallurgy 5 and Laboratory Operation. Hand over a couple big ticket blueprints to research, and never log the account in again. If the research is done in an NPC station out of a corporate office, then I don't even have to re-activate the account at the end. Just have a director deliver it to get the blueprint back when it is done.




genius
Lorna Sicling
Cosmic Monsters
Reckless Contingency.
#70 - 2014-05-06 11:52:28 UTC
Ream Lolstar wrote:
What industry really needs is a way to create contracts where someone moves the stuff to a location and then put a contract, then when the industrial accepts it, he does the jobs and the owner gets the output, that of course for a price

In that way, the industrial who has the skills will not need to have a massive amount of capital to start doing industry, he will just get money to do the jobs.


Yes - this is what I, and most of the other manufacturers in my corp, hoped the Teams thing might look like, rather than some faceless NPC thing.

The contract thing above is a really nice idea. It would also allow for more highly skilled players who were working in a corporation team to apply a bonus to the job to allow them to make an even larger profit than the original contract price.

I'm concerned about the simplification thing, although my main concern is making it necessary to have a BPO/BPC actually at the installation you want to install the job at. By reducing the time for copying, all you're doing is cluttering up hangers even more than they are now.

CCP - have you looked at how many cans and tabs a serious industry player uses? Adding the need for them to use BPC's at a POS to manufacture instead of a BPO locked down in a station / Outpost is simply asking for the poor indy player to have lots and lots more cans in yet another tab.

Industrialist - currently renting in null sec.

Writer of the blog "A Scientist's Life in Eve" - proud member of the Eve Blog Pack

Marcus Iunius Brutus
Hoborg Labs
#71 - 2014-05-06 11:59:27 UTC
Lorna Sicling wrote:
[quote=Ream Lolstar]Yes - this is what I, and most of the other manufacturers in my corp, hoped the Teams thing might look like, rather than some faceless NPC thing.


I think that would be quite hard to do to not be (ab)used by armies of alts mostly.
DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#72 - 2014-05-06 14:26:40 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
Weaselior wrote:
Shoogie wrote:

Look at a titan blueprint. There are probably a few ME5 titan blueprints out there. There are certainly a few ME4 blueprints out there, and quite a few at ME3. On patch day, everyone with an ME5 blueprint automagically gets an ME 9% blueprint. Everyone with an ME4 blueprint gets handed an ME 8% blueprint. Everyone with an ME3 blueprint gets an ME 7% blueprint.

So in the future some upstart wants to challenge the null sec status quo. They buy a blueprint and research it for 8 months before starting to build. Assuming Metallurgy 5, they will end up with an ME 6% blueprint. The existing blueprints needed to be researched too, so this is fair so far.

However, when they try to get level 7% to match the existing blueprints, they are going to get a quote that says this job is going to take an additional 10 months, 25 days. If they are silly enough to do this, they will see that level 8% takes an additional 2 years and 48 days. If they are silly enough to do that, level 9% will take an additional 5 years 25 days. If they are silly enough to do that, level 10% will take an additional 12 years 14 days.


this is all true, but i believe it's more evidence that the proposed scaling for research on titans is obscene

the scaling may just be a little too harsh on the high end overall but it's only with supercaps that it goes from harsh to impossible


Weaselior's comment presents a good problem redefinition. If I may rephrase . . .

Many (myself included) have been arguing that when one combines the proposed new research times with the proposed transition from the current system nearly unassailable blueprint efficiency gets locked into the game for those fortunate individuals currently sitting on fairly well researched blueprints.

Honing in on the transition portion of the problem, several suggestions have been forwarded like greater granularity (100 levels instead of 10) and/or some version of blueprint research points (similar to the current skill points system). The idea behind both suggestions is to split loooong research times into more manageable chunks thereby limiting the creation of *unassailable* advantage.

Weaselior's comment instead treats the situation as a purely new system problem where research times on top end products vary between harsh, obscene and impossible. Accordingly, if the research times are adjusted to sane levels the transition problems evaporate since no *unassailable* advantage is created.

As always, the devil is in the details . . .

Weaselior, care to toss out a purely speculative number of what a sane Titan BPO research to perfect time would be? 6 months? 2 years? The idea being that we start with the top end and build research rank times down from there.

T'would be sweet to discover that there's less dispute about the end goal than initially thought.
P Arkanian
Rolling Pebbles
#73 - 2014-05-06 14:41:06 UTC
gas guzzler wrote:
Shoogie wrote:
[quote=mynnna]Hey, I missed this thread.

4) GHOST RESEARCH WILL BECOME A THING
* Locking away a science line for years on my main character will not happen. It precludes me from doing any copying or invention or anything else sciency. However, it is very easy to start a new account, train Metallurgy 5 and Laboratory Operation. Hand over a couple big ticket blueprints to research, and never log the account in again. If the research is done in an NPC station out of a corporate office, then I don't even have to re-activate the account at the end. Just have a director deliver it to get the blueprint back when it is done.




genius


Here are my 2c: (see TL;DR: at the end if you're impatient)

1) CCP if you want to make ME/TE research more like skill training, go ahead but leave an option to do some kind of incremental researching for the last levels. As someone else already pointed out, the all or nothing model doesn't work well with POSes, who knows if a POS will stay there untouched for months... Even in null space the biggest player blocks may decide to abandon a region to move elsewhere, by their own will, so any long research job in a POS will become too risky, everywhere, no matter how strongly you control your space today, nobody knows what happens in 6 months or more.

I'm not asking for the same switch-on-the-fly behaviour of skill training (that would be too much) but at least give us an option to partially research a level.

2) If you implement that, there will be BPOs at ME7% (say), partially researched to ME8%. Conversion of the old BPOs becomes straightforward, with almost no loss, if it's based on time spent in the lab. Borrowing the maths from Shoogie, just take the time spent to get a - say - ME6 BPO (8 months, 24 days, old style) and turn it into a ME7% BPO (4 months, 21 days) partially researched to 8% (11 months, 5 days). If I'm not mistaken, it takes 6 months, 14 days to research from ME7% to ME8%, and that BPO it's been already researched for 4 months, 3 days, i.e. it's 63% done.

Do the same for a ME4 old BPO, you still get a M7% BPO, but it's only 18% done towards ME8%. Either case, not a single day of reseach is lost.

Now, efficiency is at 7% until fully done to ME8%. The old ME6 BPO converted won't be any better, in production, than the old ME4 BPO after the change (both are ME7%), but if would take much shorter to research it to ME8%. Extra time invested in researching it is not lost.

IMHO this is the only way to really preserve the old investments the players made in researching BPOs, and it's the fairest of the conversions, even towards future researches.

As proposed, if you convert BPOs based on current efficiency, players gain or loose a lot based on rounding... still borrowing Shoogie's example, what will ME4/5/6/7/8/9 BPOs in the old system get converted to? ME4/5 to ME8% and ME6/7/8/9 all to 9%? or ME4/5/6/7/8 to ME8% and ME9/10 to ME9%? either way, someone will be very happy, and someone else very sad (ME6 onwers get the same of ME9 owners? or ME4 the same of ME8?). Not to mention the poor guy who wants to research a brand new BPO, that would take now 2 years, 2 months, 8 days to just get the same result that before required only half (or 1/3) of the time?

TL;DR: research time is what players invest, and that's what should be preserved in converting old-style PBOs to new style ones; that requires partially researched BPOs (just like skills). Once we have partially researched BPOs, they can be used to implement shorter, manageable jobs just they are now even for the latest levels in research.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-05-06 17:38:47 UTC
I can already smell the POS' burning.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2014-05-06 18:57:52 UTC
The stated goal was to remove unnecessary complexity....

Well, they could have done the EXACT SAME THING by changing ME from int to float, and hiding it behind the UI.

When you start a research job, you could be offered options:

9% waste ( behind the scenes it would be 0.11ME).
8% waste (behind the scenes it would be 0.25 ME)
7% (I forget what the number are, but I posted them in other thread)
6%
5% (1 ME)
6% (ME 1.5)
...
0% (base in on the perfect ME based on what you need the most of).
Final option would be to let you pick a time, then behind the scenes calculate what ME that will be, and what % waste it would be, to allow partial research between %s.


There is NO REASON they needed to do a complete redesign and round every 10ME BPO to perfect when they could have just changed ME to a float and hidden it behind the UI.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2014-05-06 19:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
P Arkanian wrote:
TL;DR: research time is what players invest, and that's what should be preserved in converting old-style PBOs to new style ones; that requires partially researched BPOs (just like skills). Once we have partially researched BPOs, they can be used to implement shorter, manageable jobs just they are now even for the latest levels in research.


Which could have easily been achieved by converting ME to a float and hiding it behind the UI.

Right now we have to research to whole ME, which means fractions of a 5% of waste. But if they had just changed ME to a float, then the UI could have presented it as whole % waste, while behind the scenes it was a fraction of ME.

Let's say a BPO with a 2 hour research time and 1000 trit as the most needed:


UI with radio buttons:
This BP has 10% waste: Research to:
0 -> 9% waste = 13 mins , 12 seconds
0 -> 8% waste = 30 minutes
yada yada
0 -> 5% waste = 2 hours
yada yada
0 -> 1% waste = 18 hours
0 -> 0% waste = 16 days, 16 hours
0 -> Enter your own time Days ____ Hrs: ____ Mins: ___ = X.XX waste.

Behind the scenes, 9% waste is converted to 0.11 ME, which is multiplied by 2 hours to get 13 mins 12 secs. 8% is 0.25%. 7 is like .4 if I recall. 5% is ME 1 = 2 hours. 6% is like ME 1.5 if I recall, 3 hours. Perfect, in this case of 1000 trit being what is needed most = 200, so 200*2 hours = 16 2/3rds days.

If they chose to enter their own time, then time/2hours = ME, and than convert that to the % waste.

For partially researched BPOs, just remove the options less than they already have done.

THEN, to make it even easier, for things that need less than 5 of things, show it as already perfect when they buy it (small rigs). If they need more than 4 but less than 10, then when they come to this screen, they only get one option, and it is the perfect (which pre-change would have been 1, but under this system could be fraction of 1).


This would have

1) Maintained all current research
2) Simplified the understanding
3) Left new players on equal footing with older players.

Instead what we get is
1) Every BP 10 or higher jumps to perfect.
2) click fest as I have to put the job in 10 times instead of being able to select the level and put it in one time.
3) Crushes new players as they will have to research 100+ times longer to get sub-1% waste BPO
ST0NER SMURF
Vrix Nation
#77 - 2014-05-06 21:00:44 UTC
Shoogie wrote:
ST0NER SMURF wrote:
whats the formula on capital blueprints with me research ?

i see dif stuff around

but a me 6 freighter wil be ?

and whats the researchtimes after the patch



ME6 before the patch, or ME6 after the patch? They are very different things. ME6 before the patch is approximately equivalent to an ME9 after the patch. ME6 after the patch is about halfway between an ME1 and ME2 before the patch.

The research times are detailed in the Dev Blog. Take the time in seconds from the table and multiply that by the rank of the blueprint to get the total time to research from 0 to that level. I assume if you are going to be doing ME research on high level blueprints you have Metallurgy 5. So multiply all times by 0.75. If you research in an Advanced Mobile Lab in a POS, you can multiply the times again by 0.75. A regular Mobile Laboratory will have a multiplier of 0.7. The Hyasyoda Mobile Lab will have a multiplier of 0.65. Unless explicitly mentioned, I have not counted researching in a POS in the time quotes I have given here or elsewhere, because it seems very dangerous to store capital BPOs in a POS. You also run the risk of taking it down and losing multiple months of research time.

Ranks of all blueprints can be determined by looking at the "research material time" on the blueprint, converting that to seconds, and then dividing by 6000. Orcas are rank 820. Freighters, dreads and Carriers are rank 854. Rorquals are rank 1024. Supercarriers are rank 1707. Titans are rank 3414.

You asked for freighters. So for the rank 854 blueprints here is a chart normalized by how much better than an unresearched blueprint it is:

Benefit.........ME Level and Total Research Time
0%................ME0 both pre and post Kronos. 0 Research Time
1%................ME1 post-Kronos: 18 hours, 41 minutes
2%................ME2 post-Kronos: 1 day, 20 hours
3%................ME3 post-Kronos: 4 days, 10 hours
4%................ME4 post-Kronos: 10 days, 12 hours
5%................ME1 pre-Kronos: 1 month, 14 days or ME5 post-Kronos: 24 days, 22 hours
6%................ME6 post-Kronos: 1 month, 29 days
6.67%..........ME2 pre-Kronos: 2 months, 28 days
7%................ME7 post-Kronos: 4 months, 21 days
7.50%..........ME3 pre-Kronos: 4 months, 12 days
8%................ME4 pre-Kronos: 5 months, 26 days or ME8 post-Kronos: 11 months, 5 days
8.33%..........ME5 pre-Kronos: 7 months, 10 days
8.57%..........ME6 pre-Kronos: 8 months, 24 days
8.75%..........ME7 pre-Kronos: 10 months, 8 days
8.89%..........ME8 pre-Kronos: 11 months, 22 days
9%................ME9 pre-Kronos: 1 year, 1 month, 1 day or ME9 post-Kronos: 2 years, 2 months, 8 days
9.09%..........ME10 pre-Kronos: 1 year, 2 months, 15 days
10%.............ME10 post-Kronos: 5 years, 2 months, 13 days (PERFECT)

Therefore, for a MOROS for example. Pre-Kronos it becomes effectively perfect at ME6. You could research it for 8 months 24 days in an NPC station to get it there. Post-Kronos, you need an ME9 bluprint which will take 2 years, 2 months, 8 days.

This doesn't consider that Pre-Kronos, you can research it in a high-sec POS. That will take only 6 months, 18 days. If you get war-decced, you can take the POS down and you lose at most 32 days of research. Post-Kronos, you can try to research it in a high-sec pos. It would take a total of 1 year, 6 months, 14 days to get to ME9. But then if you get war decced you either risk losing the blueprint itself or over 10 months of research time.





awesome thx

note to self, read the devblogs while not beeing stoned ;o

__________________________________________________________________ 

♫ When your pod gets blown to bits ♪♫ And you lose your implant fits ♪\☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2014-05-06 22:08:55 UTC
Shoogie wrote:


mynnna, you really need to learn reading comprehension.

virtually anytime some pubbie says this it's because their argument has been blown out of the water and so their only response left is to stick their fingers in their ears and keep repeating their argument and ignoring the gurgling sounds as everyone on their ideaship drowns and suffers a horrible death until the intelligent people tire and leave

your post is no exception

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2014-05-06 22:14:01 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
The stated goal was to remove unnecessary complexity....

Well, they could have done the EXACT SAME THING by changing ME from int to float, and hiding it behind the UI.

thats stupid and adds additional complexity while making the UI lie to you and is basically the worst idea so far

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2014-05-06 22:16:25 UTC
DireNecessity wrote:

As always, the devil is in the details . . .

Weaselior, care to toss out a purely speculative number of what a sane Titan BPO research to perfect time would be? 6 months? 2 years? The idea being that we start with the top end and build research rank times down from there.

T'would be sweet to discover that there's less dispute about the end goal than initially thought.

Probably 3 years or so. It's a pretty tiny benefit and so there's no real need to make it completely infesible to get there.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.