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"Restricted to security level less then 0.4 "

meaning it will not work in 0.4 because 0.4 is not less then 0.4.

it is not the most clear it could be.

http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-ship-and-module-balancing Skip down to the graphs at the end.

You might want to hold off on reprocessing your meta 1-3 modules...

Yes, they'll rebalance them, but that could just as easily hurt them, and still make them worth less than the mineral value today.

There's really two ways it could go:

1) T2 uniformly better than whatever meta1-meta4 bonuses become. In this case, every old timer uses T2 anyway, and meta modules are still crap.

2) meta1-meta4 becomes optimization to fitting, effect power, activation cost or range (or other vectors)

meta0 is the baseline
meta fitting is same effect and activation, but 10% easier on grid+CPU
meta effect is 12% more damage, same range, same activation cost, same fitting
meta range is 12% more range, same damage, same activation cost, same fitting
meta activation is 12% less activation cost, same damage, same range, same fitting

T2 becomes 10% effect, 10% range, 3% more activation cost, 3% harder fitting cost

For things like rigs, the 10% needs to be bigger, since T1 to T2 rigs have much bigger differences.


meta0 is the cheapest module, and players can build them
the others are found via missions
ganking ships will demand meta effect for max DPS, or stronger web bonuses)
snipers / kiting ships may want meta range modules to fit on their fleets (ranged web)
fitting constraints may drive passive meta fitting choices, or meta activation for power-expensive modules like MWDs and neuts

bittervets will use T2 for a good balance of everything (T2 webs might be 60% at 12k if meta0 was 50% at 10k)

note that 10%/3%/12% whatever all all just possibilities. exact balance TBD.

In that case, yes, I'd keep my meta modules.

I vote for giving nullsec 5-10x bigger asteroids + increasing the yield by 20-50% (or give it ores that contain 15-35% more minerals than highsec ones) and scrapping the ME bonus as well as the refining bonus on outposts. (+ thats even rationally explainable contrary to the boni)
Opposed to the planned changes this would not result in close to zero or even negative profit margins for high/lowsec manufacturers (and don't tell me they should just buy refined minerals from nullsec ppl, adding the fuelcosts and tradingtaxes they still pay quite a bit more... + why the hell would one jump minerals back out of null if he could just produce stuff there already that take up less space finally than the minerals would)
and still buff nullsecmining and manufacturing significantly, making it worth doing, hell, it might even make it worth going out there in a Venture or a Prospector.

That refining needs higher skills: ok.
That different structures get extremely different results from the same ores (+ most of these structures are not accessible by all) creates an extreme inbalance, not ok
(and don't tell me a 3% difference isn't a lot (and that were procent point, not relative to the actual output, so it'd be higher, and between high and null its even higher), when the profit margin on a lotta stuff is only 3-6% thats 100-50% loss, and please don't come with the few exceptions now, as soon as more people would produce those the profitmargins would drop to these levels as well)

Well, maybe the profit margins will get higher if we lose some industrialists...

So, I was perusing the alchemy tables when I realized that some of the newer alchemy reactions returned 95/100 of a certain material. Coupled with an 11% bonus in a fully upgraded nulsec refinery, would that not return more material than what was put in?

1 unit of Unrefined Neo Mercurite requires 100 Mercury and 100 Cadmium. Under the old skills and stats, perfectly refining this would return 95 Mercury and 40 Neo Merc. Under the new skills and stats, it will return at least 105 Mercury and 44 Neo Mercurite.

I'm fine with the extra Neo Merc. But creating moon goo out of thin air doesn't seem like a good idea. Maybe just cut the 100% returned Mercury to 90 like all the other recipes. Pretty sure its just 7 recipes.

It´s so funny as a pretty new player in EVE of a half year or so, I don´t get the half of the complaints people are having on the massive changes with Kronos^^

for me all that stuff u guys say is awsome.... and pretty helpfull that I jumped into this shortly before those changes^^
so all I learned last months was useless and I can beginn from scratch, but atleast I didn´t have had the time yet to get used to some special ISk-cow wich makes it way easier to turn with those changes!

awsome that there is so much work invested to this game, and all those news about ur plans make me happy every day
(cuz who could read so much within a short time xD so the news from last week are news for me today xD)

Is there a CSV/GoogleDoc somewhere out there with all the new numbers? Shoutout to CCP to next time supply these in the devblog instead of the nice, but unusable PNG images.

Oh, yes. Right you are. While the blog doesn't explicitly state that unrefined goo isn't effected, the relevant line does specify that refinery outpost upgrades effect ice and ore. There is no mention of other things.

yes

I...somehow missed reading this before the rest of the Industry changes, and if this is not reconsidered, I will be greatly disappointed.

1) The person who is doing these changes does not seem to understand the previous design of the original, that they are now building on.

Let's look at the skill set and more importantly why it was designed this way.

Refining in highsec took very little training time to get to 100% refining, compared to the amount of skills required to get 100% refining in nullsec stations.

This is why you have the advanced refining skills, because the station bonuses were so mis-matched.

This leads to the question, then, why were the station bonuses so mis-matched?

Simple answer is: ore value.

The nullsec space is vastly superior in raw resource value. Therefore, in order to increase its ramp up time before this value was fully tapped, low output stations were put there, with high end skills (long training times) to make its value specialized. IE, the people who invested in their refining skills before turning into output.

The real value of this is in the mineral output, not the rocks themselves. The original designer understood this.

The highsec space, is comparitively sparse of this rich, raw resource mineral value. Therefore, it required much less attention from a design point of view to assign yet another chunk of specialization into turning out its full output.

What are these ore outputs I am referring to? Let's take a look at a chart from one of our CSM, Steve Ronuken. (very nice chart, btw)
Prime Arokonor, sits at the top of the nullsec list, with an Isk per unit value of, 3919.11. Now, I'm not going to use fancy math on everyone so I'm just going to refer to this as a simple 4000.
Luminous Kernite, at 251.94 Isk per unit, is the top ore value in highsec space. I'm going to simplify this as well, to 200.

So we have values of 4000 : 200. We can break this down further to, 40 : 2, and then finally, to its most simple form of 20 : 1.
This is the ratio of the value of the richness of space between, nullsec and highsec. It's a pretty big ratio when you break it down based on value of ore, on output alone.

The only catch, was the crappy refine bonus stations nullsec had to work with. I believe this was something around 30%, it doesn't matter. What is important here, is that for nullsec, you had to employ the full gambit of your refining skills subsets, including ores, to be able to refine to 100% locally, and thus take full advantage of that 20 : 1 ratio.

In highsec, it takes comparatively very little refining skill to reach 100% of this, comparatively 1 output. The stations start out at a very generous, 50% refine yield. With the real work, being in taking out the 5% corporation tax at said station where you were refining, you would have 100% output without any real trouble. But, this output, is of significantly less local quality, than nullsec local quality. Remember that 20 : 1 ratio, it is the reason for this refining station imbalance between the two.

The proposed change throws all this careful work in the skill trees, assuming new players, and older, more established players, less income but also less time spent training, to reach that income, versus a huge income but also a greater amount of granular steps to reach that potential, making a very strong statement about new players mining in high sec and the skilled miner, having gone down to nullsec.

This blog I will say, very ignorantly, throws this balance between new player and veteran player, out the window, claiming, refining was not "skill centric". The refining skills 'did not matter'. 'We want to make the refining skills more centric.'

But who is the audience referred to by these statements in the dev blog? It certainly isn't nullsec, because you needed a good depth of refining skills to get to 100% refine. They are in direct relation to highsec. But no attention seems to be paid to the formula underneath, which is 20 : 1.

To put it simply, in highsec, it didn't matter to the original designers if the steps required to reach 100% were 10 or 1, because the actual value of what the ore was outputing in mineral value, was twenty times less than what the system was actually geared towards - and that is balanced around nullsec, not highsec values. Appropriately so.

Another way to look at this:
Highsec: Poor value, not a lot of steps needed to reach said value, because its output will always be poor. (1:20)
Nullsec: High value, a lot of steps needed to reach said value, otherwise its output will be too overwhelming. (20:1)

So you had the skill separation of highsec only needing the first tier of refining skills, plus a small measure from the implant, you could achieve 100% refine with the basic skill at V.

Nullsec had a much larger, much steeper separation, but in the end, you could achieve 100% refine by, some would say 'overtraining' in the greater depth of the refining skill subsets.

So what does the new dev blog propose? Throw all this out the window, and increase the margin to 22:1 in favor of nullsec, by adding a flat percentage refining bonus to nullsec, and making skillsets spread out in the same increments across the board for both high and null.

To get the full value of that 1 to 22 ratio in high, you now have to train for a full subset of skills, for meager 0.1% increments (poor mineral output) to your actual mineral yield. Now, for null, nothing changes, because this scale already previously existed because the facilities didn't bridge the gap in order to tap the 20 : 1 ratio without them. But that's not all, apparently this was not enough because the refining bonus was then added to null stations (2.8% - simply translated here to 22 : 1), to further separate them from their empire counterparts.

continuing...