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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion
#181 - 2014-05-06 19:38:07 UTC
Remove Goons from this topic! Big smile
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#182 - 2014-05-06 19:39:18 UTC
I want what I want!
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#183 - 2014-05-06 19:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Two step wrote:
Querns wrote:
Two step wrote:

And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.

All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.

People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why.

NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason.


I'm sorry, but perhaps you are not aware that the only fing reason to do PVE in this game is to make money. Certainly my arguments about why people shouldn't be able to do nearly risk-free PVE are going to involve money.

I will try to use little words, since you seem to be not getting it. People doing PVE with little risk is bad. Wormholes are big risk, big rewards. You are supposed to have all your ships and assets at risk to be able to make ISK from C5/6 sites. Farmers don't do this. If their POS gets popped, they don't care, and just wait a week to log in.

The farming doesn't just hurt the big groups, in fact it hurts us far less. 95% or so of our income is from the blue books from Sleepers. The little guys in C1-3 space are the ones hurt the most by this, because now their Sleeper salvage is just about worthless.

Ah, yes, we've managed to swing it around from a "my personal isk faucet is being threatened" argument to yet ANOTHER variation on the "fix every related niggling, tangential, real or perceived flaw with the game before moving forward with the part of the change which I personally dislike" argument.

Did they give out a handbook on suggested eve-o arguments that got lost on its way to my mailbox or something? This is starting to get old.

The whole risk/reward thing related to PvP activity is pretty funny at its core, really. There's this giant tower of assumptions that gets erected every time someone invokes this particular argument, primarily revolving around the concept that both parties are perfect, rational actors, and that every single PvP scenario plays out exactly the same because of this. You see it in a lot of places; certainly when talking about nullsec, but apparently in wormhole space as well. What doesn't get said is that in the overwhelming majority of actual PvP actions, neither party is perfect or rational. I'm guilty of it several times; I've lost lots of ships, including capitals, due to making stupid mistakes. I've also lost a lot of opportunities to kill a ship due to my own incompetence.

The point here is that PvP can't be boiled down to a simple set of vignettes. Sure, changes in gameplay can incentivize or disincentivize certain patterns, but you can't just make a blanket statement about risk and reward when PvP is involved like this. There's not enough room to account for the killer instinct or the shrewdness of the actors involved when you're making up little vignettes like this.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#184 - 2014-05-06 19:41:23 UTC
Rhes wrote:
MaxDEL wrote:
Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air?

Maybe because some of us like seeing entitled pubbies cry?

Goddamn, you're everywhere.

Is this a stalking thing?

And aren't you guys like banned from wormholes, or something?

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#185 - 2014-05-06 19:41:38 UTC
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Querns wrote:

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.


I was looking for a good signature. Thanks for providing one which will hopefully bring joy and laughter to everyone who sees it.

It's funny because it's true.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2014-05-06 19:41:57 UTC
Nightingale Actault wrote:
I would just like to point out, for those who are stating that we don't have any other way to tell what kind of PvE activity is occuring in a WH without access to the NPC kills in question, that you can in fact make an educated judgement of the PvE activity in a WH without this information. Is there 30+ combat sites in the WH or are there exactly 5 combat sites in a C5 with an online tower and nothing inside? This is definitely not so straightforward as having the number of sleepers and the timestamps available, but I do not believe that is a problem.

Those saying that you can escalate in peace are the most likely to be caught off guard when the clever hunters come calling at your doorstep. Those who are willing to work to find your schedule by scouting your system and gathering intel on your activities are going to be rewarded for the work they put in with your capital kills, the same as they always have, and will continue to do.



You are clueless, those sites can be despawned not just by residents but also by passers by. In fact many w-space groups leave cloacked scouts to despawn each others sites when those groups are feuding.
Gulnara Amren
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#187 - 2014-05-06 19:45:40 UTC
This aspect of WH space is not broken. You do not need to fix it. No one is getting a massive advantage- the tools are available to everyone, and anyone who spends a few days living in WH space will know about them.

Further, API kill data is a content generator. It does not hurt the game, it enhances it. While it may not be *by design* (oh, the Holy Design!), so effin what? It's worked out well.

There's a ton of things that can be done to improve WH space. This is not one of them.
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2014-05-06 19:48:12 UTC
Gulnara Amren wrote:
This aspect of WH space is not broken. You do not need to fix it. No one is getting a massive advantage- the tools are available to everyone, and anyone who spends a few days living in WH space will know about them.

Further, API kill data is a content generator. It does not hurt the game, it enhances it. While it may not be *by design* (oh, the Holy Design!), so effin what? It's worked out well.

There's a ton of things that can be done to improve WH space. This is not one of them.


This
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#189 - 2014-05-06 19:48:59 UTC
...actually doesn't say anything
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#190 - 2014-05-06 19:49:02 UTC
Gulnara Amren wrote:
This aspect of WH space is not broken. You do not need to fix it. No one is getting a massive advantage- the tools are available to everyone, and anyone who spends a few days living in WH space will know about them.

Further, API kill data is a content generator. It does not hurt the game, it enhances it. While it may not be *by design* (oh, the Holy Design!), so effin what? It's worked out well.

There's a ton of things that can be done to improve WH space. This is not one of them.

This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#191 - 2014-05-06 19:50:24 UTC
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:
...actually doesn't say anything

There's some goofiness going on with the forums software right now; lots of posts are getting eaten. You can see a couple of empty quotes in this thread. One happened to me about 10 minutes ago. I think the forums are posting drafts of posts instead of the actual, completed post.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#192 - 2014-05-06 19:53:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Andski wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.


Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.


This is actually pretty laughable. I know you didn't write that with a straight face.

I'm right behind you
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#193 - 2014-05-06 19:54:15 UTC
Querns wrote:

This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.


"Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2014-05-06 19:54:37 UTC
Querns wrote:

Sure, but it does remove the need to actually be in the system to observe behavior and make a manual determination of whether the hole should be kept or just rolled. All that needs to be done, today, is to check the system against NPCs killed over time, determine when the time zone of activity is, and log off until then.



Are you suggesting that in order to pull off an equivalent gank to log off trap w-space groups need to spend days or weeks on scouting. Because that is what is being discussed here. Yes, right now the data is cheap and easily attainable. However without the data you would run into the following scenario:

1) Open into system, find a dozen active towers in the system
2) Leave a scout, looking at the system for at LEAST 23 hours
3) If you are lucky the residents will bear within the 23 hours of your arrival, unlucky? Spend another unknown amount of time scouting the system
4) Do the residents run their sleeper sites at the same time on other days? Spend addition unknown amount of hours trying to determine their habits and patterns
5) Finally, we have something resembling the old API data, bring in capital ships and log them off
6) Spend an unknown amount of hours trying to finally trap the locals, who can be spooked by just about anything.

Yeah, this will require an excessive amount of work to pull off. While yes, I agree, it will work well with Lore of the game. W-space is unknown and it takes time to scout and so on, HOWEVER we are not playing this game for lore. We are here to make lore and to do that a certain amount of data is required, if that data goes against design principles and game lore then **** those designs and lore. This is entire thing is about conflict, content,. human beings actually running into other human beings and not just a bunch of red crosses. Yes, w-space should be unknown and dangerous but it should not be isolated.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#195 - 2014-05-06 19:54:50 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Andski wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.


Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?


Did you just seriously compare API automation with putting physical characters in systems and doing actual scouting?

Using a bot to read local is hardly actual scouting.

I'm right behind you
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#196 - 2014-05-06 19:55:29 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Querns wrote:

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.


This is actually pretty laughable. I know you didn't write that with a straight face.

I did. You can see evidence of this in the Jump Fuel increase thread; I unequivocally argued for the changes instead of against, despite the fact that I make money primarily in Science and Industry in 0.0 and, as such, rely on jump freighters to shuttle materials and finished goods to and from market. The changes represent a direct increase in costs that I endure, and yet, I argued for them, because they were good for game balance.

See also: the Technetium nerf.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2014-05-06 19:55:41 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Querns wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Andski wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.


Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.


This is actually pretty laughable. I know you didn't write that with a straight face.


I was actually hoping the guy that claimed he was in CFC leadership didn't.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
War Fairy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2014-05-06 19:55:55 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
...

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way.
.
.
.

Yes, it is. Park a cloaked alt by every site in a W-system and take data. Warp about as needed. Yes, it is a very hard way to get the data from the client, but it is a way.

Thus your statement "This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way" is wrong. There is a way, a very cumbersome way, but there is a way.


That's info from player not client.
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#199 - 2014-05-06 19:57:20 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Querns wrote:

This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.


"Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP

Cuz three capitals with subcap support close holes behind them out of pure bravery.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#200 - 2014-05-06 19:58:54 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Querns wrote:

Sure, but it does remove the need to actually be in the system to observe behavior and make a manual determination of whether the hole should be kept or just rolled. All that needs to be done, today, is to check the system against NPCs killed over time, determine when the time zone of activity is, and log off until then.



Are you suggesting that in order to pull off an equivalent gank to log off trap w-space groups need to spend days or weeks on scouting. Because that is what is being discussed here. Yes, right now the data is cheap and easily attainable. However without the data you would run into the following scenario:

1) Open into system, find a dozen active towers in the system
2) Leave a scout, looking at the system for at LEAST 23 hours
3) If you are lucky the residents will bear within the 23 hours of your arrival, unlucky? Spend another unknown amount of time scouting the system
4) Do the residents run their sleeper sites at the same time on other days? Spend addition unknown amount of hours trying to determine their habits and patterns
5) Finally, we have something resembling the old API data, bring in capital ships and log them off
6) Spend an unknown amount of hours trying to finally trap the locals, who can be spooked by just about anything.

Yeah, this will require an excessive amount of work to pull off. While yes, I agree, it will work well with Lore of the game. W-space is unknown and it takes time to scout and so on, HOWEVER we are not playing this game for lore. We are here to make lore and to do that a certain amount of data is required, if that data goes against design principles and game lore then **** those designs and lore. This is entire thing is about conflict, content,. human beings actually running into other human beings and not just a bunch of red crosses. Yes, w-space should be unknown and dangerous but it should not be isolated.


If it's too much work, then don't do logoff traps. Seems pretty simple to me.

Wormhole dwellers go on and on about how much work they have to do in order to generate content and how wormhole space lacks immediate Local chat. I would think that you would thrive in such an environment on the merit that it gives you yet another thing to lord over any nullsec dwellers that might waddle by.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.