Science & Industry

If anything I'm concerned that the entire package of changes ends up being too challenging for players to deal with. The math is all deliberately simple because there are a *lot* of moving parts going in different directions at the same time. We've simplified as much as possible round the edges (eg blueprint research) to try and balance out the changes to the core of the system: what do I build, and where, and when?

Of course, if we're wrong, and everything collapses back into steady-state solutions, adding complexity is the easiest thing in game design :)

That's elitist talk in my opinion. Locking people out due to complexity would be bad game design. Having said that, I don't think the old (current) system is all that complicated, although some improvements could definitely be made, especially in terms of UI.

You are also kind of contradicting yourself: if everyone started doing industry and it would become unprofitable... then why would everybody keep doing industry? I'm sure it is still going to be something where people with the best (in-game) skills and Eve economics knowledge will make the most profit.

My concern with the current changes is that I feel the changes in cost-price calculations add so many variables that it won't be easy to figure out if an item is profitable to make ore not (at least not from the game interface). I also fear the "Teams" feature adds complexity that could make these calculations even harder, to the point where most industrialist simply won't bother with them at all.

I think the new system is definitely going in the right direction as far as complexity. The current system suffers from the same problem most of Eve gameplay has: it's non-discoverable from within the game itself and has complications added only for complexity's sake. That kind of complexity doesn't make it "hardcore," that's just opaque/bad design.

Kind of like the old Microsoft certification exams. Back in the day their MCSE cert exams were pretty easy as they covered some networking basics and computer setup. then Microsoft decided to increase the value of having the cert by making the tests harder around the Windows 2000 timeframe.

Except that they made the tests "harder" by making the wording of the questions more difficult to understand, with double or triple negatives and convoluted examples designed to mislead. i.e. "If the checkbox isn't not unchecked, whereas before it was, what is the result of re-unchecking it and leaving it enabled?" They didn't make the actual content harder. That is an example of Bad Complexity.

That being said, I think they will have to work on the details of this change. 2 or 4 years of research to get to the next level is effectively removing those levels from the game, except for those grandfathered in. I would recommend that CCP take as a benchmark the longest possible skill to train to level 5 (racial titan V?) and make that the cap of max ME/TE research time required.

In any case I hope CCP continues the trend to bring more information into the game interface, make things self-discoverable and easy to learn/hard to master. +1 approve.

Locking people out due to complexity is not elitist, locking people out because it's expensive is. Having a friend donate billions to get you started gives you genuine advantage but being in a situation where two people have to learn the exact same (albeit complicated) thing means they are both in an equal position.

No. It is not stupid, because here are the non-made-up numbers.

Today, a Rorqual takes 33 days to research one ME level or one PE level in a POS. It takes approximately 45 days to research one level in an NPC station, plus the length of the queue in the station before you can start.

So if you have a Rorqual blueprint, you know exactly how long your blueprint will be out of commission if you research it. That length of time is on the order of one month in a POS or two months in an NPC station. If you can manufacture a Rorqual every 10 days, the opportunity cost for this research job is the profit you could potentially make on between 3 and 6 Rorquals depending on the facility you choose.

There are also plenty of tools which tell you exactly what the bill of materials will be for your Rorqual blueprint after the research. (I wish that information was available in game. It sounds like it will be in the new UI.) So when you plug in your blueprint and see, "Oh, if I do this, then I will only save one Capital Construction Parts per build, worth about seven million isk." So then a reasonable person would not research the blueprint and choose something else to do. But at least they have a choice.

In the future, if you want to get your Rorqual to "perfect" the quote is going to say OVER FOUR YEARS. The opportunity cost for researching it that level is astronomically higher. There are going to be 8 expansions to the game between installing it and delivering it. Perhaps one of those expansions will introduce something to completely change the meta game for Rorquals--like the POS compression array for example.

Even more extreme are the titan blueprints. To get from ME 9% to perfect, the quote is going to say 16 years. That research level will actually save costs on building from that blueprint. However, what will the meta game for titans look like 16 years from now?

TL:DR
Changing research times to be so absurdly long means that they have effectively taken away a choice from players. Taking choices away from players is bad, even if most other players think it was the wrong choice.

My main gripe with Industry / Science is how jobs cannot be spread out over multiple lines. Let us say you could as a project manager take that mega Research Job with 2 Years time on it and divide it among fifteen players with average skills. Now we're talking!

The same if you need to build 1000 Frigates. If the job could be 'broadcast' from a central point collaboration among aligned stations and authorized players is all that is needed.

If the main reason for corporations is to increase cooperation this is an excellent way to do so. The ME/PE and so forth is stat tightening and really does not change gameplay - it is an iteration. Naturally current stakeholders are looking for ways to jimmy an advantage and maintain hegemony (read Huge-Money).

Perhaps cooperation would require some of those database items that never seem to get used or datacores.

Altering where, how and the number of participants that can perform research and industry project can be done is worthwhile.

The incentives of where to build and research should not be only based solely on isk price. In time this should be complemented with where and how mats are acquired.

Thanks!

I´m sorry but right now you only need to deal with a horrible IU, logistics and (optionally) horrible POS mechanics, after summer every industrial will have to deal with: worse logistics as your sistem gets full, variable taxes, dealing with people that doesn´t like/respect/want us (0.0 and their Napoleons), teams, new ME/TE mechanics, and the same horrible POS IU and code...

How is all this simple for a new player.

I agree with Shoogie on all accounts. This is badly thought idea regarding long-term BPOs.

It also removes choice and makes ALL BPOs the same. Before when entering new area of production, there was some excitement, check the BPOs on chruker website, decide what will be optimal, decide how I will spend my time between researching and building, etc. Now: every single battleship and below BPOs will be perfect ME10, capitals ME 7 (except old ones of course). So much for complex game. Even setting up PI will take more effort.

I have built all things except supercaps, will see how new system works out and if it's too dumbed down, no reason to play the game anymore.

Oh please, not this NullSec-hates-us stuff again. I don't know what you people do wrong, my industrialist-alt is on amiable terms with people from Null. I even got a seriously discounted blueprint over my NullSec-channels recently. And with the changes some people will even start up more industry in Null.

Also I think you wrote UI wrong. It's User Interface, not Interface User. Just a head's up.

NO, NO, NO!

The current system is fair. My entire objection to the new system is that it locks in the advantage that the vets already have and makes it so new players will never be able to compete! The advantage is similar to T2 BPOs, but to a lesser degree.

Before I proceed, I want to say that I respect the null sec power blocks. You fought for what you have. You deserve to benefit from it. But when somebody comes to try to take your space from you, they should have access to the same tools you have.

Look at a titan blueprint. There are probably a few ME5 titan blueprints out there. There are certainly a few ME4 blueprints out there, and quite a few at ME3. On patch day, everyone with an ME5 blueprint automagically gets an ME 9% blueprint. Everyone with an ME4 blueprint gets handed an ME 8% blueprint. Everyone with an ME3 blueprint gets an ME 7% blueprint.

So in the future some upstart wants to challenge the null sec status quo. They buy a blueprint and research it for 8 months before starting to build. Assuming Metallurgy 5, they will end up with an ME 6% blueprint. The existing blueprints needed to be researched too, so this is fair so far.

However, when they try to get level 7% to match the existing blueprints, they are going to get a quote that says this job is going to take an additional 10 months, 25 days. If they are silly enough to do this, they will see that level 8% takes an additional 2 years and 48 days. If they are silly enough to do that, level 9% will take an additional 5 years 25 days. If they are silly enough to do that, level 10% will take an additional 12 years 14 days.

Of course, nobody will ever research any of those levels. No new blueprint will ever be researched past 6%. All of the current blueprints will be locked at 1%, 2%, or 3% better than the new guys will ever attain.


Besides, if your objection to the current system is the math, the new UI fixes it for you. You can get a quote for a job for blueprints you don't even own. So plug in a blueprint. Adjust the ME level. Compare the bills of materials. Think about if the difference is worth the time and cost to research. It was a shame this information was previously not available in game, but that has been taken care of!