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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#101 - 2014-04-28 16:59:09 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Since you're trying to move Eve away from "build from original (BPO)" and more towards "build from copy (BPC)", can we have an increase in station copy facilities to be closer to on-par with station manufacturing facilities? Now it seems like there's 10x or more manufacturing facilities for every copy facility.

MDD


As mentioned in this previous devblog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-better-worlds/

We are removing the slots and introducing a cost scaling system instead. The next devblog will cover that in more detail.

So many blogs because so many changes Bear

That doesn't help me when the station I'm in has manufacturing facilities but does not have laboratory facilities. Or are you saying that all stations will have all services now?

MDD


Ah no it doesn't, but the stations that do have copy facilities will no longer be capped. Yes you may need to do some flying around.


I think you should re-evaluate this.

The NPC copying facilities are very limited today. After this change, the demand for BPCs is going to increase. All of the industrial corps who have high-value BPOs are going to want an office in the few stations that offer copying facilities. There will be very little point for an industrial corp to have an office in any station that does NOT have copying facilities. Rent in those places skyrockets. The infinite slots with cost scaling means that copying fees quickly hit the 14% (of whatever) level very quickly. Everybody pays the same fee again.


Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#102 - 2014-04-28 16:59:17 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

I have one but it's a bit of a mess as it's got all kinds of misc math scattered all over it :/ With the info in the data dump it's pretty easy to calculate it though, I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a complete reference.

(Can someone be along shortly with a complete reference?)

Well, fine, since you twisted my arm:

RESEARCH RANKS FOR ALL BLUEPRINTS: http://pastebin.com/v5DaBnzd

IN CSV FORM: http://pastebin.com/xjjD7ur4

The query:
Quote:

select b.typeName, a.researchMaterialTime / 6000 as ME_Rank, a.researchProductivityTime / 6000 AS TE_Rank, a.researchCopyTime / 6000 AS Copy_Rank FROM invBlueprintTypes a LEFT JOIN invTypes b ON (a.blueprintTypeID = b.typeID) ORDER BY b.typeName;

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

ST Mahan
Doomheim
#103 - 2014-04-28 16:59:36 UTC
First off, thank you CCP for putting out the Dev Posts, 2 in one day. Also looking forward to the other posts prior to Fan Fest.

Looks like a lot of time went into thinking about the indy side of the game. Very curious to see the team blog.

A question regarding Capital Ship BPO's ME. How will these work out. For example currently Charon has a magic number of ME3 and then doesn't improve further until ME6. Will this sort of tiered % reduction remain; (I'm assuming so) and if so is there a way to calculate this.
Sturmwolke
#104 - 2014-04-28 17:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.


It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.

It's considerably more than > 6.25% per unit. You bumped off the extra materials bit remember?
So, we're looking at perfect* T2 ME10%/TE20% BPOs vs whatever that maxes for inventions atm.

*T2 BPO owners would be stupid if they didnt take adv of the ME/TE transfer for the expansion.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2014-04-28 17:01:40 UTC
Weaselior already made an informative post around the T2 BPO issue. I would just like to make sure you guys notice it because you aren't thinking about that 6% correctly.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#106 - 2014-04-28 17:01:53 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would love for someone to go through and give the intersection of high sec systems that offer the complete package of ME, TE, copying, and invention services.

The high sec industrialist will have the choices of:

a. Setting up shop in the tiny amount of systems that meet that criteria, which will be hugely expensive.
b. Setting up shop in multiple systems simultaneously, each that provide a subset of those services, which means incurring huge risk moving very expensive BPO's around, until your BPO collection reaches a quality level you are good with.
c. Becoming a nomad, where you go to a system that provides a service, staying there for an extended period of time, and say, apply ME research to all your BPC's, then moving onto another system to do TE. This is of course, completely impractical, and you still have huge risks moving your BPO collection.
d. You set up a POS somewhere and keep your BPO's in your POS, and apply research to them from your POS. This is, of course, a beacon for war dec griefers, and demands you are online every day, forever, or at least someone from your corp with take rights is available every day.

Bye bye small high sec industrialist corps.


Would that not be every station with research services? They've always been full for 30 days so I've never used them. Was much easier for me to just put up a POS.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Forge#stations

Every system with a blue tick in the box.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#107 - 2014-04-28 17:02:19 UTC
Theodore Knox wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Theodore Knox wrote:
an we get an indication of what the tiering or ranks will be for all categories of BP... as you say, Ammo will be rank 1 (so a three day research time for max ME). Rigs? Are all modules going to be rank 2? And how will this telescope for higher rank items that have lower component quantities (i.e. Caps - I'm guessing we'll be able to cut ME research at about level 4 or 5 to get perfect build costs, or are we really going to need to chase insanely long research times for the competitive edge?)

/Theo


I'd have to make a public-ready spreadsheet for this, and honestly it's probably easier for you to do it yourselves :) Take the current ME research time in seconds, divide by 6000, and that's the rank for that blueprint.




Thanks for this. Just to be clear - the telescoping is a straight multiplication of the Rank 1 times in the Devblog?

/Theo


Yup. Dead simple math :)

Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.

you're not thinking about t2 bpos correctly

t2 bpos allow you to have an absolute cost advantage: you're always producing cheaper than someone inventing. what matters is how much that t2 bpo (and the others of that type) can produce. if it can meet demand without invention, the price will be where invention is not profitable. if it can't, the price will largely depend on how much of the demand is met by invention

when you make it possible to produce more on a t2 bpo, every new unit it produces forces one invented unit out of the market. the profits on invention will fall until someone leaves.

producing more on a T2 BPO is absolutely a huge deal, much more than if you boosted its cost a little bit, because its impact on the market depends on the amount it can produce, not the costs (unless the cost is higher than invention)

a t2 bpo holder essentially has a monopoly: their price isn't dictated by their costs its dictated by what the market will bear

you absolutely should make it so a t2 bpo max copy speed is exactly equal to its current build speed: anything else is a buff that will push out inventors


On the assumption that demand is somewhat elastic based on product cost, I'm not immediately aware of any T2 item where the balance between invention and BPO output is close enough that this will actually matter in practice. If you've got specific examples, please let me know and I'll look at the numbers :)
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#108 - 2014-04-28 17:03:24 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
Aryth wrote:
Weaselior already made an informative post around the T2 BPO issue. I would just like to make sure you guys notice it because you aren't thinking about that 6% correctly.

Weaselior's post is applicable in the cases where the market can be largely or completely satisfied by the production output of active T2 BPOs. I'm not in a position to know how many of the T2 items are in that state. Anyone care to add data?

Edit: but I do agree that the changes (as stated presently) would be an across-the-board buff to T2 BPOs since they could produce 6.25% more. I can't tell (yet) whether inventors will receive a nerf or buff to their production capabilities.

MDD
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#109 - 2014-04-28 17:04:38 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Stuff here
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.


It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.


Yeah but an industry rewamp would still be a good opportunity to get rid of these T2 BPOs...

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Myxx
The Scope
#110 - 2014-04-28 17:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Myxx wrote:
I and others feel like CCP is being intentionally vague. This is frustrating. You give details of low end items, but don't flesh out your maths for higher end bpos (capitals and such).


You're asking about research times? The math is super simple, divide current ME research time by 6000 to get the rank, multiply Rank 1 times (in the blog) by this number to get the times for that blueprint.


Titan bpo research times:

1: 4.2d
2: 9.9d
3: 23.5d
4:
5:
6:
7: 750d
8: 1,828d
9: 4,256d
10: 10,116d (27~ years)

In other words, if you have a currently researched titan (or other super cap for that matter) bpo that is at a level above 7, you are essentially a ******* genius. If you're not, you're SOL and will require more mats.

I use this as an extreme example, but I'm more than a little concerned that this effect will trickle down to other slightly more common bpos that, in effect, hinders anyone from getting into doing high end production themselves without being reliant on an already established production line.

Here's an idea. Leave the ME/PE levels part of it the hell alone. There is enough documentation out there for any player to get the information on.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#111 - 2014-04-28 17:06:38 UTC
Querns wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

I have one but it's a bit of a mess as it's got all kinds of misc math scattered all over it :/ With the info in the data dump it's pretty easy to calculate it though, I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a complete reference.

(Can someone be along shortly with a complete reference?)

Well, fine, since you twisted my arm:

RESEARCH RANKS FOR ALL BLUEPRINTS: http://pastebin.com/v5DaBnzd

IN CSV FORM: http://pastebin.com/xjjD7ur4

The query:
Quote:

select b.typeName, a.researchMaterialTime / 6000 as ME_Rank, a.researchProductivityTime / 6000 AS TE_Rank, a.researchCopyTime / 6000 AS Copy_Rank FROM invBlueprintTypes a LEFT JOIN invTypes b ON (a.blueprintTypeID = b.typeID) ORDER BY b.typeName;


Thank you :)

ST Mahan wrote:
First off, thank you CCP for putting out the Dev Posts, 2 in one day. Also looking forward to the other posts prior to Fan Fest.

Looks like a lot of time went into thinking about the indy side of the game. Very curious to see the team blog.

A question regarding Capital Ship BPO's ME. How will these work out. For example currently Charon has a magic number of ME3 and then doesn't improve further until ME6. Will this sort of tiered % reduction remain; (I'm assuming so) and if so is there a way to calculate this.


Tiered % essentially yes, although not quite the same; calculating it no, not without making your own spreadsheet. I'll think about this some more.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#112 - 2014-04-28 17:08:50 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.


The throughput increase does imply larger supply of the finished product which tends to drive price down. BPO holders have larger margins to begin with, and there may be some items that only they can support the lower price. I don't think it'll 'kill' invention, but there might be some things that were marginal before that won't be cost effective after this change.

Stuff like common modules, small guns, the premier inties, though have strong enough demand and margins now that it won't be too big a deal.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#113 - 2014-04-28 17:09:36 UTC
Its been a while since we looked at this. However, the command ships were the case we saw previously. I think some underused recons also.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Lilliana Stelles
#114 - 2014-04-28 17:10:06 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.


It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.


I'm not necessarily looking at production, but look at blueprint trading directly. Some invented BPCs sell directly for profit. But with 100 times as many BPO copies on the market, will this still be feasible?

Not a forum alt. 

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2014-04-28 17:10:45 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

On the assumption that demand is somewhat elastic based on product cost, I'm not immediately aware of any T2 item where the balance between invention and BPO output is close enough that this will actually matter in practice. If you've got specific examples, please let me know and I'll look at the numbers :)

Demand doesn't tend to be that elastic based on product cost as for mods cost is nearly irrelevant (few million), and for t2 ships you're looking for a specific role and need that role rather than a slightly cheaper ship that's filling a different one.

I believe underused recons (e.g. pilgrims) and command ships fall into this category but it's been a little while since I looked at the numbers.

Basically when you're thinking about t2 bpos you simply can't do it the way you were (by cost, ignoring volume): the only reason that invention even can be a profession is the limited number of t2 bpos can't supply the entire t2 market. But each unit they do supply is one unit an inventor gets forced out of supplying, because the inventor can never produce as cheaply as the t2 bpo holder. The T2 bpo holder will build as many units as he possibly can, and price them at the highest price they'll move at (which is largely set by how many inventors he needs to muscle aside).

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2014-04-28 17:12:53 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
man i gotta say this is a VAST improvement: no longer will we have to explain to people that a bpo that's ME200 is basically the same as one that's ME 20, not 10x better. I will have to do the math though on how best to exploit the changeover :v:



There will still be this issue.

Small rig BPOs that only need 3 of this and 4 of that will still be perfect at me 0%. if you need 5 of something, no need to go above 1%. 10 of something, 6%...

Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#117 - 2014-04-28 17:14:49 UTC
I would like to join the idea of rewarding people with ME/PE lvls above new max - we invested great time, effort and resourced to manage that, we deserve some kind of compensation. The idea of some kind of tokens that we could possible receive as compensation to shorten research time of other BPOs seems like a good idea for example.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#118 - 2014-04-28 17:15:10 UTC
I get a strange feeling when I see players (Weasilor, Aryth, ElectronHerd Askulf, etc.) having a better understanding of the economics than the Devs. It's a partly warm feeling, partly sick feeling.

Also, Eve Online's economics still make it the best game. Thank you CCP.

MDD
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#119 - 2014-04-28 17:17:30 UTC
Myxx wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Myxx wrote:
I and others feel like CCP is being intentionally vague. This is frustrating. You give details of low end items, but don't flesh out your maths for higher end bpos (capitals and such).


You're asking about research times? The math is super simple, divide current ME research time by 6000 to get the rank, multiply Rank 1 times (in the blog) by this number to get the times for that blueprint.


Titan bpo research times:

1: 4.2d
2: 9.9d
3: 23.5d
4:
5:
6:
7: 750d
8: 1,828d
9: 4,256d
10: 10,116d (27~ years)

In other words, if you have a currently researched titan (or other super cap for that matter) bpo that is at a level above 7, you are essentially a ******* genius. If you're not, you're SOL and will require more mats.

I use this as an extreme example, but I'm more than a little concerned that this effect will trickle down to other slightly more common bpos that, in effect, hinders anyone from getting into doing high end production themselves without being reliant on an already established production line.

Here's an idea. Leave the ME/PE levels part of it the hell alone. There is enough documentation out there for any player to get the information on.


If you have a titan BPO that's currently above

I don't follow your reasoning here. 7% in the new system equates to ME 3 in the old system, which took 711 days to research. What's changed, other than the extra 39 days?

Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

On the assumption that demand is somewhat elastic based on product cost, I'm not immediately aware of any T2 item where the balance between invention and BPO output is close enough that this will actually matter in practice. If you've got specific examples, please let me know and I'll look at the numbers :)

Demand doesn't tend to be that elastic based on product cost as for mods cost is nearly irrelevant (few million), and for t2 ships you're looking for a specific role and need that role rather than a slightly cheaper ship that's filling a different one.

I believe underused recons (e.g. pilgrims) and command ships fall into this category but it's been a little while since I looked at the numbers.

Basically when you're thinking about t2 bpos you simply can't do it the way you were (by cost, ignoring volume): the only reason that invention even can be a profession is the limited number of t2 bpos can't supply the entire t2 market. But each unit they do supply is one unit an inventor gets forced out of supplying, because the inventor can never produce as cheaply as the t2 bpo holder. The T2 bpo holder will build as many units as he possibly can, and price them at the highest price they'll move at (which is largely set by how many inventors he needs to muscle aside).


I'll check on recons and command ships. My understanding of the T2 market is that individual items tend to be either completely BPO-dominated or largely invention dominated. In principle I totally recognize that increased supply of cheaper goods can have an impact, but in practice there are (as I understand it) very few cases where this *actually* matters.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#120 - 2014-04-28 17:17:44 UTC
1Robert McNamara1 wrote:


The BPC market really sucks in general. I'm surprised Eve is focusing on BPC building process when the BPC exchange system is so challenging. How many clicks does it take to sell a BPC vs. any other loot? How many clicks does it take to know what the hell you're getting from a BPC contract? Look at the decryptor market for example, some contracts have 30+ BPCs and you need to go 2 layers deep to know how many runs of various TE/ME values... it's a mess.


Do visit Features and Ideas, CCP is soliciting for ideas to improve the contacts system also.