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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
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gas guzzler
i'm from the government and i'm here to help
#141 - 2014-04-28 17:38:20 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.


It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.


I'm not necessarily looking at production, but look at blueprint trading directly. Some invented BPCs sell directly for profit. But with 100 times as many BPO copies on the market, will this still be feasible?


rofl excellent troll, +1
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#142 - 2014-04-28 17:40:10 UTC
Callisto Helix wrote:
I haven't yet had the time to read all the posts in this thread, but I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the blue posts thus far.

With regard to figuring out what to do for BPO's that have been heavily researched after the expansion patch goes live and the discussion of some type of time credit or something along those lines: What about for those industrialists that live in wormholes? Every BPO I own sits in a corp hangar at a POS in my home system. I believe it's technically "owned" by my corp. How are you going to know that I'm the one that's supposed to get the credit when I go to apply it toward future BPO's?

Would you guys please make sure that if any credits or compensation or whatever benefit ends up being implemented for over researched BPO's also properly benefits WH industrialists as well?

Thanks :)


Anything we do in this area would require us to be able to deal with BPs in corp hangars of all kinds, yes :)

MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Do you realize this is NOT true. Since Extra materials are being turned into normal materials, the ME level needed for perfect production will move at the same time you implement this change.


Oh. Yeah, good point. In the cases where extra materials exist, some blueprints will their "perfect" point, yes.


Uh, verb missing I believe. Kinda important one, too.

MDD


Fixed :)

(Also, the table in the blog is now fixed, if anyone's still waiting for that.)

Myxx wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Myxx wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Myxx wrote:
I and others feel like CCP is being intentionally vague. This is frustrating. You give details of low end items, but don't flesh out your maths for higher end bpos (capitals and such).


You're asking about research times? The math is super simple, divide current ME research time by 6000 to get the rank, multiply Rank 1 times (in the blog) by this number to get the times for that blueprint.


Titan bpo research times:

1: 4.2d
2: 9.9d
3: 23.5d
4:
5:
6:
7: 750d
8: 1,828d
9: 4,256d
10: 10,116d (27~ years)

In other words, if you have a currently researched titan (or other super cap for that matter) bpo that is at a level above 7, you are essentially a ******* genius. If you're not, you're SOL and will require more mats.

I use this as an extreme example, but I'm more than a little concerned that this effect will trickle down to other slightly more common bpos that, in effect, hinders anyone from getting into doing high end production themselves without being reliant on an already established production line.

Here's an idea. Leave the ME/PE levels part of it the hell alone. There is enough documentation out there for any player to get the information on.


If you have a titan BPO that's currently above

I don't follow your reasoning here. 7% in the new system equates to ME 3 in the old system, which took 711 days to research. What's changed, other than the extra 39 days?


You misunderstood. *bangs head on desk a few times*

This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.

Yes?

All I'm saying is, you're kind of ******* some people over who would've left it at ME6 instead of moving further with it in the current system, because going further than that is ******* absurd, but now, in the new system, they HAVE to... even if the times required scale up pretty steeply to get back to 'perfection'. Despite that, even at what now qualifies as 'perfection' you still require more mats for pretty much anything whereas the returns on research dropped off pretty steeply to where you could go 40/100 ME/PE (or, ME/PE 6 in the case of capital bps as most would leave them there) and be basically fine on most stuff.

tl;dr: I see anything you touch as bad.


"Have to" why? ME 6 translates to ~8.6%, which we're rounding up to 9% in the new system. What else has changed that suddenly makes researching further necessary?
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2014-04-28 17:40:35 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'll check on recons and command ships. My understanding of the T2 market is that individual items tend to be either completely BPO-dominated or largely invention dominated. In principle I totally recognize that increased supply of cheaper goods can have an impact, but in practice there are (as I understand it) very few cases where this *actually* matters.


Doesn't it actually matter in all cases? In all cases, T2 BPO holders will increase their production rates by 6.25%.

We can cover the spectrum of all possible changes.
1) There are many inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners will increase their market share by 6.25% x current market share, because they can produce more. That will reduce the number of inventors in that market.
2) There are no inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners use their increased production to forestall the day when inventing becomes useful (when demand increases above the T2 BPO production capacity).
3) There are currently only a few inventors because the demand is barely above T2 BPO production capacity. This is your "actually" matters case, where invention no longer becomes profitable at the current time. Similarly to case 2 we can expect invention to happen again in the future when demand increases.

In all of those cases the increased production matters. The immediate effects are different but that should not stop us from considering all of them.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#144 - 2014-04-28 17:41:38 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Since you're trying to move Eve away from "build from original (BPO)" and more towards "build from copy (BPC)", can we have an increase in station copy facilities to be closer to on-par with station manufacturing facilities? Now it seems like there's 10x or more manufacturing facilities for every copy facility.

MDD


As mentioned in this previous devblog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-better-worlds/

We are removing the slots and introducing a cost scaling system instead. The next devblog will cover that in more detail.

So many blogs because so many changes Bear

That doesn't help me when the station I'm in has manufacturing facilities but does not have laboratory facilities. Or are you saying that all stations will have all services now?

MDD


Ah no it doesn't, but the stations that do have copy facilities will no longer be capped. Yes you may need to do some flying around.

Please have a look at the number of stations with laboratory facilities versus the number of stations with manufacturing facilities. They are severely imbalanced in some regions (perhaps all).

And dismissing the problem as "oh, you'll just have to fly around some more" doesn't give me confidence that you've thought the changes through. For example, copying corporate blueprints means you'll need to have an office in the station with the laboratory facilities. Possibly several new offices if you have to use a variety of laboratory services to react to congestion pricing. And corporate blueprints are frequently locked down. Do you begin to see how this is perhaps a problem?

The demand for copy facilities is going to increase, and that is intended. But if you don't look at increasing the number of copy facilities, the demand for offices in stations which have copy facilities is *also* going to increase. And you haven't said you're going to remove office slots, like you're removing copy slots. So I don't have confidence that this aspect has been noticed and examined by CCP. Please look at it.

MDD
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#145 - 2014-04-28 17:41:56 UTC
I think it's time for Tech 2 BPOs to be deactivated and turned into collectors' items.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#146 - 2014-04-28 17:45:53 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Under the new research system, it will take twice as long to get to 1% waste as it does now. So get an many BPOs to level 11 as you can NOW, because after the change all BPOs at 11 or more become perfect.




Rank 11 or more.. or ME 11 or TE 11...


explain this to me as I brace for your prices bro... :)
Callic Veratar
#147 - 2014-04-28 17:45:55 UTC
I'm somewhat confused as to all the fear associated with T2 BPO copying. People might want to take a quick peek at what is actually required to copy a T2 BPO, for example, here's the huginn.

To make a copy, you need 12 R.Db - Boundless Creations and 175 Data Sheets. Current market price for those components is about 1.5M and there are only about 500 of the R.Db on the market total. Invention needs about 1.6M in datacores and a BPC, though it has a chance to fail.

T2 BPO owners can, in theory, flood the market with cheap copies but only for a very short time until the R.Db supply runs out or they could keep doing what they're doing now and manufacture with the BPO and forget about copying as it'll be an expensive waste of time.

If you want to really ensure you're covered, buy up the R.Db supply. It wouldn't cost much to have a majority of the liquid stock.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#148 - 2014-04-28 17:46:04 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


On the assumption that demand is somewhat elastic based on product cost, I'm not immediately aware of any T2 item where the balance between invention and BPO output is close enough that this will actually matter in practice. If you've got specific examples, please let me know and I'll look at the numbers :)


As Weaselior pointed out, it's really not that elastic. There are a number of t2 ships that are generally not sufficiently profitable to make sense inventing - Mastadon, Claymore, Claw are easy examples in the minmy line.

There are others that are sometimes profitable that I'd be concerned about the extra volume coming into the market - Broadsword, Huginn, Munnin for example. These are sometimes inventable for competitive profits, but it's rare enough and passes quickly enough that if I'm not ready to invent, I'll miss my window and wind up with a print waiting for another 6 months.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#149 - 2014-04-28 17:46:39 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
This base change is actually increasing prices for things and you'll get more waste under the current math until you get to perfect. See:

http://i.imgur.com/pjHil5G.png

Notice that the blueprint at ME1 currently (to be converted to ME5%) is actually increasing in price. When you multiply the base amount by 1.11 (repeating), then subtract 5%, you don't wind up in the same place.

Formula for column D is just round(B*1.11111111111111111), formula for E is .95*D

Now, once you get to ME10%, they are indeed the same - but when you take my ME1 titan bpo, and give me a ME5% titan bpo, I'm gaining waste. I got 105% of the build cost in the current system, but what I'm getting in the new system is 105.55555555555555% of the old build cost (.95/.9)


Yeah, this is true, due to the way the math concertinas up and down.

Kadl wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'll check on recons and command ships. My understanding of the T2 market is that individual items tend to be either completely BPO-dominated or largely invention dominated. In principle I totally recognize that increased supply of cheaper goods can have an impact, but in practice there are (as I understand it) very few cases where this *actually* matters.


Doesn't it actually matter in all cases? In all cases, T2 BPO holders will increase their production rates by 6.25%.

We can cover the spectrum of all possible changes.
1) There are many inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners will increase their market share by 6.25% x current market share, because they can produce more. That will reduce the number of inventors in that market.
2) There are no inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners use their increased production to forestall the day when inventing becomes useful (when demand increases above the T2 BPO production capacity).
3) There are currently only a few inventors because the demand is barely above T2 BPO production capacity. This is your "actually" matters case, where invention no longer becomes profitable at the current time. Similarly to case 2 we can expect invention to happen again in the future when demand increases.

In all of those cases the increased production matters. The immediate effects are different but that should not stop us from considering all of them.


In 1), this is only true if the market size is absolutely fixed, which seems implausible.

In 2), it doesn't matter any time soon at least because most of those markets are not going to significantly expand any time soon

In 3, yes this is the problem case, but I'm not aware of any markets (except possibly recons and command ships) where this is true.

So yes, it always "matters" for a given value of "matters", but my concern is "when does it matter enough in practice that we actually need to change something", and the answer seems to be "very rarely".

(To be clear, we're still considering not adjusting T2 BPOs and/or adjusting them less, but the above reasoning still largely holds IMO :))
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#150 - 2014-04-28 17:47:28 UTC
Question for CCP that has probably been asked already:

I realise you are going to decrease the time to make copies from BPO's. This obviously had to be done if BPC's will be used from now on to manufacture as opposed to using BPO's which many did before.

BUT would it not make sense to leave copy times for T2 BPO's as they are now or not reduce them by so much ? I don't know which items but it may make invention of some items uneconomic if copy times for T2 BPO's are reduced too much.



Another question:

Are you going to increase the amount of runs that can be made on copies of capital BPO's such as armour plates etc ?
Morrighaan
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2014-04-28 17:48:09 UTC
Just to be quick about it - industrialists who put their effort (time/isk/security/whatever) into researching BPOs to higher levels should definitely get something in return. The simple fact that if two people researched a BPO one for a year (e.g. ME60) another for 2 months (e.g. ME10) should end up with the same BPO post patch feels ridiculously 'unfair'.

It likely cannot be said how much ISK the effort is worth (many variables influenced this over time). It should be possible to compute how much time one had to spend pre-Patch and how much the BPO would need post-Patch in order to research a BPO to equivalent levels..

As has been suggested, perhaps the most direct way to compensate this would be to provide researchers with RUs that could be freely spent on new research jobs, similarly to spending reimbursed SPs after learning skills were removed.

While this would not retain the 'better value' of our BPOs with ridiculously high ME/PE values (which made BPCs sell better over less researched ones), it would at least allow us to transfer that research time to new BPOs (which we could have researched had we not researched the ones that got capped).
Alexander McKeon
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#152 - 2014-04-28 17:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander McKeon
Having some sort of time credit for research previously done seems like an equitable solution for those who've put extra research into BPOs, though with diminishing returns perhaps. In the case of an ME 40 versus ME 10 capital component BPO, that extra research represented a sensible investment of time which now vanishes into the aether and should be compensated. Cases of senseless research such as pushing a T1 module bpo to ME 600 should perhaps receive some form of diminished credit for the extremely high ME levels.

I'm also very concerned about how the rolling of extra materials into regular materials (thus making them affected by ME) will affect Invented T2 BPCs vs. well-researched T2 BPOs. Giving the latter a further cost advantage by reducing the extra materials which are currently the same for invented bpcs vs. bpos would be a serious problem for more expensive T2 production jobs, i.e. ships. When recons and command ships are already sufficiently low volume as to have the market be dominated by BPO holders, squeezing the inventors out by increasing their relative cost isn't acceptable.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#153 - 2014-04-28 17:50:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


In 1), this is only true if the market size is absolutely fixed, which seems implausible.

In 2), it doesn't matter any time soon at least because most of those markets are not going to significantly expand any time soon

In 3, yes this is the problem case, but I'm not aware of any markets (except possibly recons and command ships) where this is true.

So yes, it always "matters" for a given value of "matters", but my concern is "when does it matter enough in practice that we actually need to change something", and the answer seems to be "very rarely".

(To be clear, we're still considering not adjusting T2 BPOs and/or adjusting them less, but the above reasoning still largely holds IMO :))


Yes, but its important to remember that in all T2 markets (with BPOs) that extra production is at the expense of invention.

Also, I want to call attention to the earlier post that hit upon someone I was trying to work out. The perfect ME might indeed move based on the additional materials. While I think it is a minor issue it is going to result in some spike demand for research.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#154 - 2014-04-28 17:50:15 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yeah, this is true, due to the way the math concertinas up and down.

It's actually not a rounding issue, it will always be worse unless it is rounded to the same (and I don't think that will happen except in cases where the amounts are tiny). But does this mean that we should assume that ME1 will be converted to ME6% (so it's the same or better as before) rather than ME5%?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2014-04-28 17:50:16 UTC
Callisto Helix wrote:
Every BPO I own sits in a corp hangar at a POS in my home system.


I at least hope this is a forum alt. I am going to guess that you may be just trying to cause trouble for anyone with labs in WH space. Either way having BPOs in PoS's is a bad idea. Having many BPOs at a PoS in WH space is a really bad idea. Having labs in WH space is like asking to have your hole cleaned out.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#156 - 2014-04-28 17:50:52 UTC
What I'm getting from the whole T2 BPO copy issue is that with a copy time 6.25% faster compared to that of its production time, people are worried that T2 BPOs will suddenly become better than invention for making T2 stuff. But after looking at the actual numbers (thx to Querns), I think these fears are totally unfounded.

Item ME TE Copy
250mm Railgun I Blueprint 2 2 2
250mm Railgun II Blueprint 7 11 183

Since ReaserchTechTime=9000s for this item, the base invention time per run is 2.5 hours. Making the BPCs will take 6.25% less time with max skills, unless skills will also effect invention time, in which case both will be identical. Either way, the time bottle neck will still be invention.

Building 250mm Railgun IIs from a T2 BPO either directly or through copies will still take significantly longer (7/2=3.5x) than the time required to make the BPCs for invention because the T2 BPOs are a significantly higher rank than the T1 BPOs.

As far as the devblog as a whole, +10. I was worried about my rig BPO collection suddenly needing a bunch of new research to remain viable. But I see now that they will still be effectively perfect.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#157 - 2014-04-28 17:51:10 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
The real way to handle these isn't to get rid rather reduce their impact. If one t2 bpo can produce 1000 of a particular module a week, but 100,000 are traded a week, it affects for 1% of the volume and you can largely forget about it. The issue is if a bpo can produce 10, 20 or even 50% of the volume of an item and there are literally hundreds of examples where this is the case. Capping TE on T2 BPO's would be a good start, but wouldn't even begin to get to the point where it is worth inventing a lot of things.

It would be far better to improve all the unpopular T2 products, so that people actually use them all in reasonable volume. That way there would be sufficient space for the T2 BPO owners and a reasonable number of inventors in every market.

This seems to be the approach that has been taken by the balance team, so if we give them some time the "problem" will get solved.

This will not stop people hating on eachother out of ignorance, prejudice and envy. But those issues are somewhat out of scope.
Myxx
Incredible.
#158 - 2014-04-28 17:53:08 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

"Have to" why? ME 6 translates to ~8.6%, which we're rounding up to 9% in the new system. What else has changed that suddenly makes researching further necessary?

I think I hear DUST calling for your help.

Being serious now, tl;dr:

Old system made sense in that the scale was a curve in regards to how much further research was worth.

New system is flat and each level is worth pretty much the same before it (in effect). You are actually simply adding waste to things that were pretty much done being researched.

Ie, .1% waste under current becomes 1%. Its annoying and more than a little ****** on your end.

All I'm really saying is that I think you had another really bad idea and should've left well enough alone.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2014-04-28 17:54:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
CCP Greyscale wrote:

In 1), this is only true if the market size is absolutely fixed, which seems implausible.

I disagree, but you can have your economist test it: with the nerf to tech and the subsequent rise of the r64s, we saw a period of change in how valuable ships were, and I expect that the current settled price is different from the pre-tech settled price (and that prices are now stable and can be compared to previous stable prices). I suspect that you'll see that as price changed, use changed very little (if at all) for t2 items, and that almost all change in the rate of use of t2 items can be explained by subscriber growth and rebalances that affect those items/ships (even if only indirectly, like the cynabal being buffed affects sales of vagabonds even when the vagabond itself is not touched).

The thing is, fixing this is pretty easy: any t2 bpo holder has science V, just tweak their copy times so that a science V copy time is exactly equal to its current build time. The math is pretty simple, the rationale is pretty simple, and it avoids buffing or nerfing T2 bpos which are a sore subject (even though the amount of soreness over them in many cases far exceeds the actual trouble they're causing).

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#160 - 2014-04-28 17:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Milla Goodpussy
Morrighaan wrote:
Just to be quick about it - industrialists who put their effort (time/isk/security/whatever) into researching BPOs to higher levels should definitely get something in return. The simple fact that if two people researched a BPO one for a year (e.g. ME60) another for 2 months (e.g. ME10) should end up with the same BPO post patch feels ridiculously 'unfair'.

It likely cannot be said how much ISK the effort is worth (many variables influenced this over time). It should be possible to compute how much time one had to spend pre-Patch and how much the BPO would need post-Patch in order to research a BPO to equivalent levels..

As has been suggested, perhaps the most direct way to compensate this would be to provide researchers with RUs that could be freely spent on new research jobs, similarly to spending reimbursed SPs after learning skills were removed.

While this would not retain the 'better value' of our BPOs with ridiculously high ME/PE values (which made BPCs sell better over less researched ones), it would at least allow us to transfer that research time to new BPOs (which we could have researched had we not researched the ones that got capped).



although he answered my question, it does feel like after all this time keeping it working in a slot since last year means nothing. not really still even a dent in the mats required really. ccp needs to adjust and show us signs of actual lower materials need. i never understood how could ccp put something in a game that would take... 18yrs or so to become "perfect"..

so now the short runners get perfect. the while the mega ton of time and isk i spent to get there doesn't matter.

i think Uber researched Bpo's should get a bonus just for the time put in waiting for the time to produce from them. one bpo i have i waited and researched it up to ME 1000.. now that's gone by the wayside and someone younger will be right there with me with an even lesser researched BPO.