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I'm sorry if this has been asked somewhere in the last 100 pages or so, but I'm trying to run some calculations and I can't figure out how the refining implants affect things.

The base refining formula is given in the dev blog plus a bunch of other places on the web, and it's:

Station Equipment + 0.375 x (1 + Refining skill x 0.02) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.04) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.05)

The formula with the implant isn't given in the dev blog, but I had figured that the implant would just serve as another multiplier in this formula, so that the whole thing would become:

Station Equipment + 0.375 x (1 + Refining skill x 0.02) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.04) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.05) x (1 + Implant modifier)

If you look for the formula on various fan sites and earlier formula posts, this is the formula that is described, albeit without any official confirmation. It also matches all of the existing reprocessing calculators that I can find online (at least the ones that allow you to take implants into account).

The only thing is that this formula doesn't match the table that was provided in the dev blog, as posted here. The table shows the percentages that you would get (prior to the coming expansion) with perfect corporation standings, a 50% facility efficiency, and the 4% refining implant.

So let's say that a player has:
Refining to 5,
has not trained Refining Efficiency, and,
has the Ore Processing skill to 3.

Mathematically, that would be:

rate = 0.500 + [0.375 x 1.100 x 1.000 x 1.150 x 1.040]
rate = 0.500 + 0.493
rate = 0.993

So it comes out as 99.3%, and this value matches all of the online calculators that I've checked it against.

On the table posted in the dev blog, though, this condition is shown as 98.9%.

Basically, the dev blog table is accurate when all skills are 0, but has lower values than the formula for all other conditions, getting worse as the skills increase. When all skills are 5, the formula comes out to a refining rate of 114.4%, while the dev blog table shows 113.4%.

I'm thinking it may be some kind of progressive rounding error, much depends on which terms are rounded. It may also be a different kind of math to apply the implant's effects. The in game description of the 4% implant says that it causes a, "4% reduction in refinery waste". So maybe the math is applied to the waste percentage instead of the yield percentage?

If anyone has any ideas here, I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong.

Maldiro is also my ore refining pilot. I have a mining alt but he only has the skills to mine Pyro IV and Veld IV. The reason for this is Maldiro was my first pilot and was a miner when he started so since perfect refining was possible, I just keep putting SPs into ore refining to both be able to refine ore and scrap metal.

I restate that the only real solution is to grandfather in all existing players with a RE-90 refining plug that functions like the plug that makes your pod golden.

So let me get this straight: you believe that highsec has the greater risk already, so it should therefore have the greater reward? Or perhaps you at least believe that the risk between them is equal?

With one of the benefits of the new 55% reproc max being that Extra Materials will be unnecessary in Bills of Materials, does this mean that all materials will be treated equally for skills that reduce wastage and for the effect of ME?

If we assume equal refining between the areas. Nullsec still has greater reward because it has better ore, high end ore, moon goo, better PI production by huge orders and infinite ore in a single system.
However what Equal refining means is that 1 unit of an identical ore has the same production value for null & high. While Null having better refining gives it yet another advantage on top of all the others it has to start with. And one that makes it able to produce ships significantly 'cheaper' than Highsec possibly can.

It's not about the 'one' advantage. It's about all the advantages accumulating into a massive tower. Because it's a cumulative effect it also won't show immediately and by the time it does show if Null has too much advantage it will have been running for a long time and be too late to fix easily. If Null need more low end minerals and importing compressed ore is too hard, then the correct fix is to increase low ends availability in Null by mixing in things like more dense Veld asteroids into the Industrial Anoms. (Or just mining the Veld in the belts)

In short, the refining difference is the wrong approach to rewards.

I do understand that the changes to the reprocessing skills are needed, to make some other skills/features of the game reasonable.
As stated arlier, it brings abig disadvantage to new players and vets who live on mission running: We lose around 50% on income from loot. (Some would not believe it, but on L4s I would lose like 5-15M per hour, depending on missions/luck)
To make up for the huge losses these changes will bring to mission runners which loot/reprocess I would like to propose some tweaks:

Increase metal scrap drop and increase the amount of minerals.
Or even its composition (give it some highsec minerals additional to the Trit?) its reprocessed into. AFAIK there is no way for players to produce metal scrap (except by killing), so this would not bypass the changes you are planning, but make up for the losses of mission runners, salvagers/looters.

The second option would be to increase trash loot as a whole. But that would have a huge impact on cargospace needed to transport and it would substancially impact on the price of some T1 modules on the market, which is not really the idea of my proposal.
the upside of this change would be, that because there are some lowsec/nullsec minerals in them, it would give a small -but still welcome- amount of diversity in minerals highsec dwellers have access to.

Where in my post does it say i feel i have a right to perfect refines (you wont find it so dont put words into my mouth). Im willing to train any additional skills required to reach the new maximal refine result, it is just the implant issue that is the problem.

As to your point B, it has already been addressed by me in a previous post and i will not address it here a second time.

Ore/Ice

Effective Yield = Station Equipment x (1 + Refining skill x 0.03) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.02) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.02) ) x (1+ImpantMod x 0.01)

Scrap

Effective Yield = Station Equipment x (1 + Scrap Processing skill x 0.02) )

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning for why non-Ore/Ice is only being effected by Scrap-metal Reprocessing and none of the other skills?

In the dev blog you say you want to make refining more specialized yet between someone with 0 - Scrap Metal Reprocessing OR ANY other 0-Refining skills you get 50% yield and if you train ScrapMetal to 5 you get 55% ... Only 5% difference in effective yield from a 0 skill point character?

The Reasoning behind the Ore Skills being Marginally worse the more Specialized you get was sound. My complaint here is that Scrap Metal isn't really being treated as a specialized skill in the formula ... I suggest keep scrapmetal processing at 5% per level so that the *reprocessing yields are

http://i.imgur.com/6C9ycFi.png

This will allow people that refine Scap... to be MORE specialized then a 0 Sp character and still keeps the heavy nerf on module compression..

Someone who enjoys playing with the market in this area

Destitute Tehol Beddict

Summary

The skill ScapMetal processing is being treated as a specialized skill when its not in the formula. (sort of)?

As a long time player, 5+ years in the game, I feel yet another kick in the teeth coming here. I have seen you reduce mission loot on lvl 4 missions, as you said we were getting way too much value from the loot. Ive seen the introduction of massive amounts of scrapmetal, that is worthless, unless you have a truly massive amount of it, to replace modules. Ive seen the bounties on NPC's go down in high sec mission sites. Ive also seen the payouts from the agents go down. I am a highly specialized mission runner, I fly 2 different marauders, as ive found they have the best balance of firepower and defense, and are able to run missions faster than just about any other ship. Yes, under the right circumstances, I am able to run 4 to 5 missions, and that includes salvaging, in an hour, but I have to be very focused and they have to be the right missions. All this goes to say that I have spent a TON of time doing my homework, training skills to ridiculously high levels, researching ships and builds, testing numerous hulls under a variety of situations. I have a staggering amount of time invested in my gunnery skills, they are high enough to make most low and null sec pukes jealous, and now, im going to loose even MORE money, if I want to continue doing what I enjoy. If you continue diminishing what mission runners are able to make, you might as well remove missions from the game entirely CCP. That's not to say that's a decision I want to see, and would lead me to quitting for good, but lvl 4's almost aren't worth doing anymore, and as lvl 5's aren't practical for a solo pilot to run. I feel more and more that you, CCP, don't want pilots to stay in high sec. I can agree that low and null need advantages in exchange for the relative security that high sec has, but they already have that in the ores and other things that are out there. To be quite frank, ive been in null before, and got my butt shot off for showing my face there, and have absolutely no desire to go back. Please CCP, reconsider some of what you are doing before you turn high sec into a rookie training ground, with crap missions and ores that forces players into null to make any real isk

have you considered that if you've been running missions for five years and you're broke you're probably doing a whole lot of things wrong