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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Jed Clampett
Doomheim
#1901 - 2014-04-16 13:40:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jed Clampett
So basically CCP has heard the cry that there is not enough PVP or variety in PVP

-- thus a 55% recycling cap will highly encourage players to go ahead &
Shocked lose those older hulls in combat P


-- and just because you got old hulls to lose in combat does not mean you want to lose a complete T2 fitting
Roll so CCP may have a partial solution for the growing glut of meta 3-4 from newer loot tables
(that is other than blind recycling)


all of which may encourage people like myself who would otherwise never poke their heads into lo sec to go on a roam

Cool the presence of such "beater" ship roams might improve the lo sec PVP learning experience

in that elite fleets might not dominate encounter statics so much. You might run into ships you have a chance against.
Individual losses might not be so steep if PVP newbies are not pressured into full T2 fits of the biggest ship they can fly.

Lol IF it all works out that way of course. EVE pilots tend to be a bit perverse at times vs expectations and altruism.
Jed Clampett
Doomheim
#1902 - 2014-04-16 15:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jed Clampett
Hachi Ironfist wrote:
I am a bit confused by this quote:

Quote:
Yes, we are going to reduce reprocessing efficiency down by quite a bit, but we are going to keep mining efficiency the same as it is right now by increasing minerals gained from reprocessing ices and ores.


So what they are saying now is that they will increase the amount you get when refining and increase the waste amount as well. Basically after the patch you will get 70ish% yield but around the same amount of minerals ? Or did I read that wrong?



Yes you did. 70%ish yields in high sec NPC stations.

What? But if you build outposts and POS, such player facilities will eventually have the potential of 100% refines with the best facility modules/upgrades and lots of extra refine skills at max..

Shocked Because the new CCP storyline goes that all the most cutting edge technologies and most comprehensive industrial development is naturally on the frontier and wilderness areas and not in rich established highly settled areas (which only have run down old factories) .

Lol [Sounds a little like virtual Icelandic wish fulfillment that all the best stuff would be reserved for people on the edge of civilized areas. Just saying what's obvious. :) Though I am sure they have some of the most advanced fish cannery factories in the world !!! ]

In any case this is why every one will move to null. Because only player built or captured facilities will have the best refine rates etc.


Moving to NULL would be no big deal if there was not high sec safety for non-rookies. So personally I think CCP could cut to the chase scene by declaring CONCORD parts shortages (exhausted cream of ancient salvage or price inflation). Thus CONCORD shrinks to protect only rookie ship mini-constellations which due to "population pressure" must kick your toons out at 900K SP or 3 months age (anyone older gets shot by CONCORD). Thus we would have lo sec conditions every where in Empire once you are not rookie status.
Axe Coldon
#1903 - 2014-04-16 18:49:18 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
Am I correct in thinking the vast majority of Capital manufacture will essentially be stopped by this?

I'm interested to know what % of capitals produced are made from reprocessed ores, I can imagine its pretty massive.


I don't think it will effect capitals. Way I understood it they will be increasing the compression ratio when you compress ores. So I for see people hauling around compressed ore to make capitals instead of guns/reprocess.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1904 - 2014-04-16 20:18:53 UTC
Axe Coldon wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:
Am I correct in thinking the vast majority of Capital manufacture will essentially be stopped by this?

I'm interested to know what % of capitals produced are made from reprocessed ores, I can imagine its pretty massive.


I don't think it will effect capitals. Way I understood it they will be increasing the compression ratio when you compress ores. So I for see people hauling around compressed ore to make capitals instead of guns/reprocess.


But if I've read it right you cant compress in a station, therefore you have to freighter the Ore to a POS/Rorqual

An example we have looked at (pretty sure we got our numbers right) is building a Titan to buy the Veldspar to meet the Trit requirements alone would need circa 400 freighters to move to compress. Granted its the extreme but even between a station and a POS in the same system thats just not realistic.

A big issue with both low and null is you cant get the low end ores in sufficient abundance to do anything significantly useful thats why compression started.

I still think it would be easier just to allow compression of minerals. If its and issue of triggering mass super production just increase the mineral costs 10 or 100 fold instead.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1905 - 2014-04-16 20:46:34 UTC
Rainus Max wrote:
Axe Coldon wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:
Am I correct in thinking the vast majority of Capital manufacture will essentially be stopped by this?

I'm interested to know what % of capitals produced are made from reprocessed ores, I can imagine its pretty massive.


I don't think it will effect capitals. Way I understood it they will be increasing the compression ratio when you compress ores. So I for see people hauling around compressed ore to make capitals instead of guns/reprocess.


But if I've read it right you cant compress in a station, therefore you have to freighter the Ore to a POS/Rorqual

An example we have looked at (pretty sure we got our numbers right) is building a Titan to buy the Veldspar to meet the Trit requirements alone would need circa 400 freighters to move to compress. Granted its the extreme but even between a station and a POS in the same system thats just not realistic.

A big issue with both low and null is you cant get the low end ores in sufficient abundance to do anything significantly useful thats why compression started.

I still think it would be easier just to allow compression of minerals. If its and issue of triggering mass super production just increase the mineral costs 10 or 100 fold instead.


The person you quoted is correct. You can't get enough low-end ores because the mineral content is simply far lower in volume than the ore itself. So miners would refine the ore at station and then ship it to market. Cap builders would then buy the mins, ship it, produce guns, ship those, reprocess those, and then build caps.

The new process will be that miners will compress the ore at a POS, and then ship it to market, where builders will buy it, ship it to a refinery, refine, and then use the mins to build.

The same demand will still be there. It is just going to shift from minerals to compressed ore.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1906 - 2014-04-16 21:14:20 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Rainus Max wrote:
Axe Coldon wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:
Am I correct in thinking the vast majority of Capital manufacture will essentially be stopped by this?

I'm interested to know what % of capitals produced are made from reprocessed ores, I can imagine its pretty massive.


I don't think it will effect capitals. Way I understood it they will be increasing the compression ratio when you compress ores. So I for see people hauling around compressed ore to make capitals instead of guns/reprocess.


But if I've read it right you cant compress in a station, therefore you have to freighter the Ore to a POS/Rorqual

An example we have looked at (pretty sure we got our numbers right) is building a Titan to buy the Veldspar to meet the Trit requirements alone would need circa 400 freighters to move to compress. Granted its the extreme but even between a station and a POS in the same system thats just not realistic.

A big issue with both low and null is you cant get the low end ores in sufficient abundance to do anything significantly useful thats why compression started.

I still think it would be easier just to allow compression of minerals. If its and issue of triggering mass super production just increase the mineral costs 10 or 100 fold instead.


The person you quoted is correct. You can't get enough low-end ores because the mineral content is simply far lower in volume than the ore itself. So miners would refine the ore at station and then ship it to market. Cap builders would then buy the mins, ship it, produce guns, ship those, reprocess those, and then build caps.

The new process will be that miners will compress the ore at a POS, and then ship it to market, where builders will buy it, ship it to a refinery, refine, and then use the mins to build.

The same demand will still be there. It is just going to shift from minerals to compressed ore.


Aye I dont expect supply to change and its not a ore quantity issue, like you say the market will simply shift towards unprocessed ores. The problem the sheer amount of hauling - if I need to replace 10 carriers or a titan I've lost then I have to do a butt load of transporting from the station I buy/mine at to a POS array /Rorq before I can compress and ship off to low/null sec for manufacture. In the case of the titan we're potentially talking 400 runs in a freighter for the trit alone.

I know some people in the game will love hauling but if our numbers are right CCP better start including Sarum Straight Jackets in the online store.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1907 - 2014-04-17 05:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
I have a moderate stockpile of DronePoo, which I realize is somewhat legacy as drone poo only drops from drone structures now.

Like alchemy products, the only reprocessing skill that effects their output is scrapmetal processing.

What are the chances you will adjust their "Refine rates" of drone poo to compensate for the changes to refining?
WOHEHIV
outer space pirates
#1908 - 2014-04-17 09:53:35 UTC
and dont forget to add recyclability to the Elite Drone AI ...
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1909 - 2014-04-17 10:03:46 UTC
Somewhere up this thread there's a graph that shows the values of Minerals by source. It's from 2008, though. A more current breakdown to show how many of the minerals in game came from:

  • ore refining
  • non-ore reprocessing
  • hauler spawn loot

Would help in finding how much impact the module reprocessing nerf will actually have. Players certainly can't calculate those numbers. But I'm fairly certain that CCP can. Does CCP want to show those numbers?

NPE – ISD – RIP
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1910 - 2014-04-17 11:23:18 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Somewhere up this thread there's a graph that shows the values of Minerals by source. It's from 2008, though. A more current breakdown to show how many of the minerals in game came from:

  • ore refining
  • non-ore reprocessing
  • hauler spawn loot

Would help in finding how much impact the module reprocessing nerf will actually have. Players certainly can't calculate those numbers. But I'm fairly certain that CCP can. Does CCP want to show those numbers?



The biggest problem I can see with that is:

How many of the modules were produced purely for compression.

I guess you could restrict it to meta items (as no T1 item drops now, except ammo)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1911 - 2014-04-17 11:42:46 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:



The biggest problem I can see with that is:

How many of the modules were produced purely for compression.

I guess you could restrict it to meta items (as no T1 item drops now, except ammo)
Good point, Meta =/= 1-4 should be left out (or separated).

NPE – ISD – RIP
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#1912 - 2014-04-17 22:03:45 UTC
If the intention is to have 'dedicated' or whatever term you used reprocessing pilots then please refund us all our reprocessing skill points so we can make a dedicated alt to do reprocessing.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1913 - 2014-04-17 22:09:41 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
If the intention is to have 'dedicated' or whatever term you used reprocessing pilots then please refund us all our reprocessing skill points so we can make a dedicated alt to do reprocessing.

The skills have other uses; to wit, mining crystals.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#1914 - 2014-04-17 22:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Querns wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
If the intention is to have 'dedicated' or whatever term you used reprocessing pilots then please refund us all our reprocessing skill points so we can make a dedicated alt to do reprocessing.

The skills have other uses; to wit, mining crystals.


I never claimed that the skills were useless, I made a skill plan based on achieving 100% refine with both scrap and ore and now to reach that same level im going to need to make an alt to do it. And even with a dedicated alt im still not going to reach my previous levels but at least it will be as close as i can get.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Goggles Deudigren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1915 - 2014-04-18 15:07:15 UTC
This may have been said elsewhere in this huge thread, but please make ore/ice compression in the rorq easier to do. right now it's just a chore. What would be nice is to change it from a batch process to a continuous process, set a max number of BPs in the Rorq hold and when the core is running it automatically takes the matching ore/ice from the ore hold in a minimum qty ( still kinda batchy, I admit) and just processes it and places the compressed ore/ice back in the ore hold.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1916 - 2014-04-18 15:18:17 UTC
Goggles Deudigren wrote:
This may have been said elsewhere in this huge thread, but please make ore/ice compression in the rorq easier to do. right now it's just a chore. What would be nice is to change it from a batch process to a continuous process, set a max number of BPs in the Rorq hold and when the core is running it automatically takes the matching ore/ice from the ore hold in a minimum qty ( still kinda batchy, I admit) and just processes it and places the compressed ore/ice back in the ore hold.
Summer: right click a batch (100 units of an ore), compress, done.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Goggles Deudigren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1917 - 2014-04-18 15:27:50 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Goggles Deudigren wrote:
This may have been said elsewhere in this huge thread, but please make ore/ice compression in the rorq easier to do. right now it's just a chore. What would be nice is to change it from a batch process to a continuous process, set a max number of BPs in the Rorq hold and when the core is running it automatically takes the matching ore/ice from the ore hold in a minimum qty ( still kinda batchy, I admit) and just processes it and places the compressed ore/ice back in the ore hold.
Summer: right click a batch (100 units of an ore), compress, done.



damn and I remember reading that now.... duh! thx
Nlex
Domini Canium
#1918 - 2014-04-18 21:28:58 UTC
Name of this thread and this devblog reads rather funny now, in an ironic way. Reprocessing all the things before the nerf hits, heh.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#1919 - 2014-04-19 02:20:34 UTC
no biggie, you just sell everything afterwards lol be nice if they refunded all the SP for the reprocessing skills theyll be making useless to most ppl tho

Nlex wrote:
Name of this thread and this devblog reads rather funny now, in an ironic way. Reprocessing all the things before the nerf hits, heh.


me too lol

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Rashnu Gorbani
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1920 - 2014-04-21 14:08:54 UTC
I'm really curious what will the outcome be, but for the time being the most profitable would probably be unsubbing the extra accounts I used for industry, there's no way the masses could compete with the power blocks. I guess more $$ into the top RMTers pockets... remember null sec is mostly ruled by pyramids with a couple guys on top.