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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#981 - 2014-04-16 18:18:36 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
What about my WH POS? Will it also miraculously start paying someone?

Those would be some pretty adventurous tax collectors.

if anyone can scare wholers its the revenue/tax man

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Rollo Brinalle
Imaginary Rats.
#982 - 2014-04-16 18:21:14 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Calorn Marthor wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
About being able to anchor POSes anywhere in high sec: Does that mean the very high security systems will become available? For example, right now you cannot anchor a POS in a 1.0 system. Will that change?


Can someone answer this one please?
Will we be able to set up towers in 0.8+ sec?


You will be able to anchor towers in any system in hi sec, except systems that are restricted, like rookie systems and trade hubs like Jita. This is the same restricted list as the one that applies to POCOs for instance.


Do the POS's still need to be anchored near a moon? or can they be anchored anywhere in space?
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#983 - 2014-04-16 18:22:01 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Proton Power wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Questions I have not seen a dev answer:

1. Will the 14% surcharge be calculated on the raw material cost of the products, or the estimated sell value? I assume that CCP will use the mechanism that calculates the value of an item in my hangar now.

2. Will someone be able to lock down BPO's at a POS, like they can at a station?


1 - Nobody knows yet.

2 - No.


Here are the 3 scenarios that play out.

1. Corporation keeps their BPO's locked down safe and sound in a station, and gets hit with a huge copying fee, completely out their control, as the market demand dictates the fee structure. And you KNOW that the fees will be more than what it will cost to do the copying at the POS, because CSM8 is all about risk / reward. Oh, and when I say more than the cost of doing it at a POS, I am talking about under this new world order where your internal copying costs include the new surcharge you get copying at your own POS. But you do get slightly lower costs if you choose to keep a POS up because you don't need research modules. Of course, the entire corp cam pull up stakes and move further from a trade hub, hoping to find some quiet cheap place. The opportunity cost of that is zero, because time is free in Eve, and no one ever ganks someone moving billions in BPO's.

Result: Much more costly for a corp to copy / research compared to today, but equally as safe, so a NET NEGATIVE.

2. Multi-player corporation decides to move their BPO's out to their POS to take advantage of the much lower costs of using NPC station copying and also the efficiencies of the POS research, whatever they end up to be. Of course, it still costs more than today, since no one anywhere is immune to surcharges of some sort. And as an added bonus, you now have HUGE risk of corp theft since you can't lock down the BPO's. And as another lovely feature, you just pained a big bullseye on your corp by having research mods at your POS screaming "JUICY BPO's HERE, PLEASE WAR DEC US!!!!"

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

3. Single player indy corp decides to move BPO's to take advantage of efficiencies as in scenario 2. Same risks as #2, except no corp theft. Same added cost.

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

There is no scenario here that benefits someone who is casual or serious about industry in high sec.

Of course, we have yet to see the other shoe drop with all the advantages being gifted to null sec with the costing structure, but we already know that each null sec station now has unlimited mfg and research slots.

Looks like mynnna, Malcanis, and the rest of the CSM rammed through the changes they wanted.


We don't know the price points because details on POS S&I have yet to be released.
More risk for more reward is the paradigm CCP mentioned in the blog, and people can chose the level of risk they wish to take. Just because you think having BPO's in a POS is too much risk does not mean everyone else will.

I have a research POS with 10 Labs on it today, and had to deal with wardecs of the billion+ POS loot. Learning how to arm your POS will thwart many would-be attackers. Having friends to aid you in times of war goes even farther for securing your assets. Furthermore, the 24hr warning before a war goes active provides a nice window to get your stuff safe. There are many ways you can make POS assets fairly safe, you just have to utilize them.


I too used to run a POS. I did T2 invention mfg and cap mfg in high sec and next door in low. Some of your corp members are likely flying in capitals I made for your group, before one of your guys moved on to PL. I had to deal with all the risks that you do today, and am well aware of the risk /reward balance we have today in high / low.

But bottom line, this looks more like lower reward / much higher risk is what we are facing.
Do you seriously believe that CCP, who at every turn, has nerfed high sec income, is about to give it a buff?
At best, costs will remain the same, and risk goes way higher.

But yeah, let's peg this conversation until the other shoe drops on costs, and we can see how much high sec industry just got hammered. Because we both know, that just like refining efficiency, the null sec cartels are about to be gifted huge advantages compared to high sec.



Null-sec should have a huge Advantage. Null-sec is CCP's Engame for EVE. When moving out to Riskier grounds where it takes one group of people no notice to ruin a day, It should be risker. Hi-sec is a great starting ground, and a good fallback area when things go wrong. The juicer fruit has always been in Null, and CCP should continue to make it juicier to all groups.

Null Cartels should be given a reason to bring us Industrials Out to Null. The more we have reasons to head out there, The more reasons the PVPs have for combat. Now we besides fighting for Sov, have to protect those feeding us ships. When hi-sec costs skyrocket over changes and the Null cartels realize to keep in business they need us out there, then CCP is making the area positive for ALL groups. That is a plus, Not just have a PVP area, But a endgame area for all. I know in your VAST jack of all trades, Master of everything history you brag to all of us about, must understand this Very very Simple Concept. That or you are screaming just because you are one of those people who like to Argue. I mean you scream about unsubbing and ending characters how often? Yet you are still here... amazing...

Null-sec Is the Endgame, Hi-sec is your Entry Level Job in your future career as an eve player. When will you learn this.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#984 - 2014-04-16 18:22:55 UTC
Rollo Brinalle wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Calorn Marthor wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
About being able to anchor POSes anywhere in high sec: Does that mean the very high security systems will become available? For example, right now you cannot anchor a POS in a 1.0 system. Will that change?


Can someone answer this one please?
Will we be able to set up towers in 0.8+ sec?


You will be able to anchor towers in any system in hi sec, except systems that are restricted, like rookie systems and trade hubs like Jita. This is the same restricted list as the one that applies to POCOs for instance.


Do the POS's still need to be anchored near a moon? or can they be anchored anywhere in space?


This was answered earlier by CCP, It is still at a moon, they are just unlocking I think like 13000 more moons in the game for us.
Rollo Brinalle
Imaginary Rats.
#985 - 2014-04-16 18:24:58 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Rollo Brinalle wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Calorn Marthor wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
About being able to anchor POSes anywhere in high sec: Does that mean the very high security systems will become available? For example, right now you cannot anchor a POS in a 1.0 system. Will that change?


Can someone answer this one please?
Will we be able to set up towers in 0.8+ sec?


You will be able to anchor towers in any system in hi sec, except systems that are restricted, like rookie systems and trade hubs like Jita. This is the same restricted list as the one that applies to POCOs for instance.


Do the POS's still need to be anchored near a moon? or can they be anchored anywhere in space?


This was answered earlier by CCP, It is still at a moon, they are just unlocking I think like 13000 more moons in the game for us.


Cool thanks for the response. I honestly didn't want to read 50 pages of posts and a search didn't show anything. :)
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#986 - 2014-04-16 18:25:06 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
What about my WH POS? Will it also miraculously start paying someone?

Those would be some pretty adventurous tax collectors.


That is one thing I would love to know, WH'ers are in Lawless space, No concord, no empire... Unless suddenly Concord or the navies got brave and start setting up camps into WH's.... Or is WH space suddenly going to have a Advantage to is... POS's being Your own again and with a R&D advantage... This would also drive some beautiful Content in it more then usual. As WH space will become a premium for Industrialists more then they are now.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#987 - 2014-04-16 18:26:18 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Proton Power wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Questions I have not seen a dev answer:

1. Will the 14% surcharge be calculated on the raw material cost of the products, or the estimated sell value? I assume that CCP will use the mechanism that calculates the value of an item in my hangar now.

2. Will someone be able to lock down BPO's at a POS, like they can at a station?


1 - Nobody knows yet.

2 - No.


Here are the 3 scenarios that play out.

1. Corporation keeps their BPO's locked down safe and sound in a station, and gets hit with a huge copying fee, completely out their control, as the market demand dictates the fee structure. And you KNOW that the fees will be more than what it will cost to do the copying at the POS, because CSM8 is all about risk / reward. Oh, and when I say more than the cost of doing it at a POS, I am talking about under this new world order where your internal copying costs include the new surcharge you get copying at your own POS. But you do get slightly lower costs if you choose to keep a POS up because you don't need research modules. Of course, the entire corp cam pull up stakes and move further from a trade hub, hoping to find some quiet cheap place. The opportunity cost of that is zero, because time is free in Eve, and no one ever ganks someone moving billions in BPO's.

Result: Much more costly for a corp to copy / research compared to today, but equally as safe, so a NET NEGATIVE.

2. Multi-player corporation decides to move their BPO's out to their POS to take advantage of the much lower costs of using NPC station copying and also the efficiencies of the POS research, whatever they end up to be. Of course, it still costs more than today, since no one anywhere is immune to surcharges of some sort. And as an added bonus, you now have HUGE risk of corp theft since you can't lock down the BPO's. And as another lovely feature, you just pained a big bullseye on your corp by having research mods at your POS screaming "JUICY BPO's HERE, PLEASE WAR DEC US!!!!"

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

3. Single player indy corp decides to move BPO's to take advantage of efficiencies as in scenario 2. Same risks as #2, except no corp theft. Same added cost.

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

There is no scenario here that benefits someone who is casual or serious about industry in high sec.

Of course, we have yet to see the other shoe drop with all the advantages being gifted to null sec with the costing structure, but we already know that each null sec station now has unlimited mfg and research slots.

Looks like mynnna, Malcanis, and the rest of the CSM rammed through the changes they wanted.


We don't know the price points because details on POS S&I have yet to be released.
More risk for more reward is the paradigm CCP mentioned in the blog, and people can chose the level of risk they wish to take. Just because you think having BPO's in a POS is too much risk does not mean everyone else will.

I have a research POS with 10 Labs on it today, and had to deal with wardecs of the billion+ POS loot. Learning how to arm your POS will thwart many would-be attackers. Having friends to aid you in times of war goes even farther for securing your assets. Furthermore, the 24hr warning before a war goes active provides a nice window to get your stuff safe. There are many ways you can make POS assets fairly safe, you just have to utilize them.


I too used to run a POS. I did T2 invention mfg and cap mfg in high sec and next door in low. Some of your corp members are likely flying in capitals I made for your group, before one of your guys moved on to PL. I had to deal with all the risks that you do today, and am well aware of the risk /reward balance we have today in high / low.

But bottom line, this looks more like lower reward / much higher risk is what we are facing.
Do you seriously believe that CCP, who at every turn, has nerfed high sec income, is about to give it a buff?
At best, costs will remain the same, and risk goes way higher.

But yeah, let's peg this conversation until the other shoe drops on costs, and we can see how much high sec industry just got hammered. Because we both know, that just like refining efficiency, the null sec cartels are about to be gifted huge advantages compared to high sec.


CCP giveth and taketh away.

Sure, Sov Nullsec might reap some benefits form the industry expansion, making nullsec industry more profitable is generally a GOOD thing. I do my industry in highsec because there is little benefit to doing it in nullsec.

Remember, most industry takes place in highsec, and I doubt industry is going to massively uproot itself and move to nullsec. And also remmeber, a Sov revamp is on the to-do list, so exciting times will be here.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#988 - 2014-04-16 18:26:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Rollo Brinalle wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Rollo Brinalle wrote:
Do the POS's still need to be anchored near a moon? or can they be anchored anywhere in space?


This was answered earlier by CCP, It is still at a moon, they are just unlocking I think like 13000 more moons in the game for us.


Cool thanks for the response. I honestly didn't want to read 50 pages of posts and a search didn't show anything. :)


Use the cliffnote system of eve, Dev Post link :P


Fixed quoting. ISD Ezwal.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#989 - 2014-04-16 18:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:

Do the POS's still need to be anchored near a moon? or can they be anchored anywhere in space?


♦ This was answered earlier by CCP, It is still at a moon, they are just unlocking I think like 13000 more moons in the game for us.

♦♦ Cool thanks for the response. I honestly didn't want to read 50 pages of posts and a search didn't show anything. :)

♦♦♦ Use the cliffnote system of eve, Dev Post link :P


The first post is being updated with CCP dev responses. There's your cliffnotes.
Proton Power
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#990 - 2014-04-16 18:33:33 UTC
We dont know how the "Tax" is going to work as of yet, but I dont' see why people will go out and put up POS's just because they can now.

As of today before patch you can buy a corp for almost nothing that allows you to put up POS's, not everyone is doing it.. Very little difference.

Also if POS's are also part of the system tax, a POS has very little reason to be used other than quicker jobs if the arrays still even have that bonus (Again we don't know those details yet either).

All in all, we need a lot more information.. On top of all these changes you also have the refinery/compression changes coming in, this patch is going to really change everything about production.. I think in the start we will see TONS of people jump on the POS/Industry bandwaggon, but after 2 months that number will drop drasticly, it won't be "new" anymore, and lets face it production is a job, mosst people dont play to work..
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#991 - 2014-04-16 18:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

CCP giveth and taketh away.

Sure, Sov Nullsec might reap some benefits form the industry expansion, making nullsec industry more profitable is generally a GOOD thing. I do my industry in highsec because there is little benefit to doing it in nullsec.

Remember, most industry takes place in highsec, and I doubt industry is going to massively uproot itself and move to nullsec. And also remmeber, a Sov revamp is on the to-do list, so exciting times will be here.


Let's be clear here.
CCP taketh from high sec and giveth to sov null sec.
And if you believe that the cartels will let any sov change come through that does not benefit them, well, you know better than that.

When this is all done, sov null sec will be better than high sec in every single way.
Better anoms, better rats, better ice, better rocks, better refining, and now, better industry efficiency.
The only thing that null won't have is the trade hubs, because the majority of the player base is still high sec players.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#992 - 2014-04-16 18:35:16 UTC
oohthey ioh wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
oohthey ioh wrote:
everyone shut the **** up, you lock down your ****** BPO's in station, and make copes in the station then use you BPC in the pos


Because adding valueless steps and making industry more complicated is what we wanted in an indy expansion.



then take the risk of using the bpo in the pos? the whole piont of the copys is for safe movement + inventing


FFS but to get the BPO to a usable ME and PE it will have to be placed in the POS LAB DIRECTLY sometimes up to a month to simply research 1 ME (BPO dependant) that's before you even get to the BPC stage.
Radgette
EVE Irn Bru Distribution
#993 - 2014-04-16 18:36:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Radgette
People need to stop saying the following :

Nullsec is the endgame of EVE it's supposed to be better.

EVE is a sandbox all career paths should be equally catered to not just one.

Incentivising Nullsec does not need to come at the expense of Highsec or any other space.

Adding additional costs to POS by some magical tax is daft.

we don't need to hire workers, production is automated and the pos fuel includes the items required to keep things running smoothly so it's not a maintenance tax, it's just a hey we can't think of anything so lets add a tax. really boring game design imo.

I'm holding off on any major crying until the rest of the blogs are released though as it "hopefully" isn't as bad as it currently seems.

Also one last thing, don't get your hopes up for that UI making it into the game, remember PI it looked great and we got an RSI inducing circle clickfest :P
Hexatron Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#994 - 2014-04-16 18:42:33 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:

On top of the fuel costs? POS users have to pay twice otherwise... once to keep the tower running, and a second time to pay those additional scaling costs? Will this be compensated by lowering the initial fuel costs the POS eats up? Or by giving them extremely great scaling conditions? Otherwise POS users may not be able to compete with prices of station users.


Do you understand you are talking about a commodity (ices but also other fuels components) that has ZERO intrinsic ISK value and whose price is exclusively - and rightly - decided by the markets?

The markets will judge the best price, no you, not me nor CCP.

That's what sets EvE apart. The markets.



Yes but the towers could be changed to use less fuel blocks per hour, cutting current fuel costs down - see what i mean? Costs can still bne influenced by CCP, by causing the towers to need less fuel blocks per hour, than they do now. So they can be compensated or changed.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#995 - 2014-04-16 18:46:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Allison A'vani wrote:
Why are you adding cost scaling onto POSes? You already pay for fuel. There is literally zero lore or other fantasized reason to put cost scaling on POSes. I OWN THE POS and I OWN THE ASSEMBLY ARRAY.

the reason to put cost scaling on a pos is because otherwise i would replace the eight component assembly arrays on my pos with a single one because slots are now infinite

so you make it so that it's basically free if i install ten jobs but ramps up after that, if it's done right having two assembly arrays will mean that i can install basically 20 free jobs, etc etc

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#996 - 2014-04-16 18:52:41 UTC
AWESOME.

Now can you guys add the atrocious PI interface to the list of industry UI's that need changed?
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#997 - 2014-04-16 18:52:56 UTC
Radgette wrote:
People need to stop saying the following :

Nullsec is the endgame of EVE it's supposed to be better.

EVE is a sandbox all career paths should be equally catered to not just one.

Incentivising Nullsec does not need to come at the expense of Highsec or any other space.

Adding additional costs to POS by some magically tax is daft.

we don't need to hire workers, production is automated and the pos fuel includes the items required to keep things running smoothly so it's not a maintenance tax, it's just a hey we can't think of anything so lets add a tax. really boring game design imo.

I'm holding off on any major crying until the rest of the blogs are released though as it "hopefully" isn't as bad as it currently seems.

Also one last thing, don't get your hopes up for that UI making it into the game, remember PI it looked great and we got an RSI inducing circle clickfest :P


Risk vs Reward has always been the backbone of EVE gameplay (and any other MMO in existance). The safer you are trying to be, the less rewarding your activities will be. The more risk you take, the higher your rewards will be. There is nothing wrong with that and the current changes are all good in my book.

Nullsec isn't an endgame, but it certainly is one of the most rewarding areas of the game. It is up to the player if they want to risk reaping those rewards or not. I live in high sec, enjoy being in high-sec. But I reap the rewards of null-sec on an almost daily basis because I dare to take the risk.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#998 - 2014-04-16 18:53:49 UTC
Daenika wrote:
AWESOME.

Now can you guys add the atrocious PI interface to the list of industry UI's that need changed?


Oh god I hope that's not this expansion, I just spent a week recording a tutorial about PI in it's current form Lol

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
Killian Redbeard
Ironhand Research and Industrial Corp
#999 - 2014-04-16 18:56:34 UTC
Proton Power wrote:
We dont know how the "Tax" is going to work as of yet, but I dont' see why people will go out and put up POS's just because they can now.

As of today before patch you can buy a corp for almost nothing that allows you to put up POS's, not everyone is doing it.. Very little difference.

Also if POS's are also part of the system tax, a POS has very little reason to be used other than quicker jobs if the arrays still even have that bonus (Again we don't know those details yet either).

All in all, we need a lot more information.. On top of all these changes you also have the refinery/compression changes coming in, this patch is going to really change everything about production.. I think in the start we will see TONS of people jump on the POS/Industry bandwaggon, but after 2 months that number will drop drasticly, it won't be "new" anymore, and lets face it production is a job, mosst people dont play to work..


With the Refining Change you will get better processing at a POS than a hi-sec npc station and you can also be able to create the Compressed Ore at the POS.

The only issue I have with the changes so far is the dropping of the standings to put up Hi-Sec towers. I do not see the need to make this change. There are more pressing issues that need to be change than this mechanic that is working.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#1000 - 2014-04-16 18:59:10 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Risk vs Reward has always been the backbone of EVE gameplay (and any other MMO in existance). The safer you are trying to be, the less rewarding your activities will be. The more risk you take, the higher your rewards will be. There is nothing wrong with that and the current changes are all good in my book.

Nullsec isn't an endgame, but it certainly is one of the most rewarding areas of the game. It is up to the player if they want to risk reaping those rewards or not. I live in high sec, enjoy being in high-sec. But I reap the rewards of null-sec on an almost daily basis because I dare to take the risk.


If Risk vs. Reward were valid, WH would be the most profitable and effective area of EVE. Most of nullsec is super-safe blue.