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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Proton Power
BLOPSEC
WE FORM V0LTA
#961 - 2014-04-16 16:24:42 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Questions I have not seen a dev answer:

1. Will the 14% surcharge be calculated on the raw material cost of the products, or the estimated sell value? I assume that CCP will use the mechanism that calculates the value of an item in my hangar now.

2. Will someone be able to lock down BPO's at a POS, like they can at a station?


1 - Nobody knows yet.

2 - No.
Steijn
Quay Industries
#962 - 2014-04-16 16:29:20 UTC
Proton Power wrote:
Steijn wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Starbases will have reduced tax cost next to NPC station, and mobile labs / assembly array will have more efficient ME / PE lines.


We already pay a charge via a starbase charter which allows us to deploy a POS in NPC high sec space. Now all of a sudden, said NPC are wanting a tax payable in order for us to use our own POSs. WTF? This just seems so far fetched that its ridiculous.


Lol read my post about 5 above yours, I said same thing.. We already pay taxes, fuel and risk. Now they want us to take more risk with BPO's, okay will work it out, but now they want me to pay tax to build in the POS just like the station as well.. Its nothing but an isk sink.


I read up to p34 this morning, not gone through the rest yet.

With me, it wont be more risk that happens, it will be POS unanchored and 2 accounts of researchers permanently unsubbed.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#963 - 2014-04-16 16:31:30 UTC
it's really hard to comment on the thread without having actual numbers and more details on the whole slot cost scaling
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
Capital Interstellar Group
#964 - 2014-04-16 16:33:12 UTC
I have read this thread up to page 27 and I have to say I know what God was thinking with that flood idea. The amount of informed constructive criticism here is completely minuscule. Therefore I thought I would offer some.

First, the good stuff. This is going to be an amazing and wonderful expansion. Thank you CCP. We are seeing a tremendous amount of out of the box thinking. While this is still a revamp expansion like the last few, the changes are so extensive that it truly feels like we are getting something so new as wormholes or capital ships. Of course with so much innovation the chance for creating imbalance is quite high, in contrast with the previous expansions where actual innovation has been minimal, and the revamping accomplished has been definitely successful and positive. Also, because this dev blog is an installment, it's difficult to comment on much of it, particularly when it comes to the effects of the numbers (namely the cost scaling) because these numbers have not been announced. Even when things go live on Sisi, we won't really be able to predict the effects of things on the real market on tranquility because we'll need the real market player base to know how things will turn out. Matthew McConaughey in Wolf of Wall Street: "nobody really knows if the stock is going to go up or down. All this we do is basically ***********."

Yes, old vets will quit because of this, new Indy guys will be attracted. Professions will be destroyed (standings corps) but new ones will be created. People talk about the harm to invention, but for one, invention will be changing in a later expansion, and frankly, when looking to buy T2 BPCs in game I have had trouble finding professional inventors because inventors are really alts and builders do their own invention. Frankly, it sounds like the guy who doesn't want to relocate will buy copies and components from people who can make them cheaper than they can make them themselves, creating more professions and markets as well as decentralizing the market and creating more trade hubs. Overall, the general trend of how things will be will be different, and from my initial ponderings, will likely be better in most ways. And with promises of revamping the Rorqual and invention in future expansions, we know that Indy will continue to get love after the summer. Overall a great situation.

Now for my advice. It's always better to make a smaller tweak that you can tweak again in the future than to make a larger change that you have to undo. Yes, this thinking has resulted in some underwhelming expansions in the last couple of years, and an audacious one like this is a breath of fresh air. However, it might be important to look at things to change small ways, particularly since so much of this expansion can't really be tested until it is actually live on Tranquility. Now all of the things in this category are in the realm of numbers and scaling costs, which are yet to be tackled, so hopefully this advice will be timely. I would suggest that the most significant changes to cost via the scaling costs be limited primarily to manufacturing. Please keep the scaling costs of material and time research as well as copying be very small if not even non-existent. Since the changes to blueprint location will drive builders to use copies, it will be very hard to predict how many copies will be made. It's likely to be astronomical. If making copies are heavily affected by scaling costs, production costs will become harder to predict and a new bottleneck of a different type will be created. I suggest that making copies, in addition to making them faster, not be affected by scaling costs. Also, since extra materials are being moved to normal materials but not being removed, material research will become more important, and I also hope that the cost of material research be minimal. Yes, the idea seems to offer the builder who is concerned about profit to diversify location, but having so many variables affected considerably by scaling costs will force builders to copy in one place, build in another, research in another, etc. this will mean more alts and multiboxing and 1-man corps that perpetuates a building style not available to players who can't afford all the accounts or who aren't already mega rich enough to PLEX all the alts. Adding scaling costs to manufacturing will have the intended effect of creating hubs and fostering diverse location without the extra annoyance. So hopefully scaling costs associated with research and copying will be minimal or non existent.

The UI looks beautiful. I can't wait to learn about it in detail.

Kudos on the removal of standings requirements for hisec POSes. Comments lamenting this are the most ridiculous thus far. However, the need for a mechanic to be rid of the inert POSes is about the most valid point anyone has made here. My suggestion is that they be CONCORDed after 60 days of inactivity. It's the most colorful solution I could think of. And please have an impending CONCORDing of a POS be announced in local with a bookmark so anyone in system can come watch and cheer.

That's about all the constructive criticism I have at this time. I'll say I am most looking forward to the teams blog, as I have a feeling this one is really going to be the true game changer. I have three accounts and have trained all three toons on each account to be functional. However, I only have one true Indy pilot, one combat toon, and one mostly combat multifunctional toon. The rest are just manufacturing and lab slot sources and sell order sources. I have a friend who just can't afford to active multiple training queues or run multiple accounts. He's a one account one toon guy. If he could really build an Indy empire like I have, the game will be much better off.

This expansion took some serious balls. Thanks CCP.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#965 - 2014-04-16 16:47:59 UTC
I don't think that many people if any will quit because of this, we are being warned waaaaay in advance of the changes to come, People will simply adapt to the new ways or do something else that suits them instead. As far as I can tell these changes will mean greater reward for the more proactive industrialist.

I look forward to finding out more details regarding invention as soon as it is available. I really hope they allow us to use RP directly from agents at a much better rate than if you physicalize into a datacore and sell. Give research agents a reason to be used beyond a nice treat once a year at datacore sales time.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#966 - 2014-04-16 16:51:46 UTC
Proton Power wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Questions I have not seen a dev answer:

1. Will the 14% surcharge be calculated on the raw material cost of the products, or the estimated sell value? I assume that CCP will use the mechanism that calculates the value of an item in my hangar now.

2. Will someone be able to lock down BPO's at a POS, like they can at a station?


1 - Nobody knows yet.

2 - No.


Here are the 3 scenarios that play out.

1. Corporation keeps their BPO's locked down safe and sound in a station, and gets hit with a huge copying fee, completely out their control, as the market demand dictates the fee structure. And you KNOW that the fees will be more than what it will cost to do the copying at the POS, because CSM8 is all about risk / reward. Oh, and when I say more than the cost of doing it at a POS, I am talking about under this new world order where your internal copying costs include the new surcharge you get copying at your own POS. But you do get slightly lower costs if you choose to keep a POS up because you don't need research modules. Of course, the entire corp cam pull up stakes and move further from a trade hub, hoping to find some quiet cheap place. The opportunity cost of that is zero, because time is free in Eve, and no one ever ganks someone moving billions in BPO's.

Result: Much more costly for a corp to copy / research compared to today, but equally as safe, so a NET NEGATIVE.

2. Multi-player corporation decides to move their BPO's out to their POS to take advantage of the much lower costs of using NPC station copying and also the efficiencies of the POS research, whatever they end up to be. Of course, it still costs more than today, since no one anywhere is immune to surcharges of some sort. And as an added bonus, you now have HUGE risk of corp theft since you can't lock down the BPO's. And as another lovely feature, you just pained a big bullseye on your corp by having research mods at your POS screaming "JUICY BPO's HERE, PLEASE WAR DEC US!!!!"

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

3. Single player indy corp decides to move BPO's to take advantage of efficiencies as in scenario 2. Same risks as #2, except no corp theft. Same added cost.

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

There is no scenario here that benefits someone who is casual or serious about industry in high sec.

Of course, we have yet to see the other shoe drop with all the advantages being gifted to null sec with the costing structure, but we already know that each null sec station now has unlimited mfg and research slots.

Looks like mynnna, Malcanis, and the rest of the CSM rammed through the changes they wanted.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#967 - 2014-04-16 17:01:07 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Proton Power wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Questions I have not seen a dev answer:

1. Will the 14% surcharge be calculated on the raw material cost of the products, or the estimated sell value? I assume that CCP will use the mechanism that calculates the value of an item in my hangar now.

2. Will someone be able to lock down BPO's at a POS, like they can at a station?


1 - Nobody knows yet.

2 - No.


Here are the 3 scenarios that play out.

1. Corporation keeps their BPO's locked down safe and sound in a station, and gets hit with a huge copying fee, completely out their control, as the market demand dictates the fee structure. And you KNOW that the fees will be more than what it will cost to do the copying at the POS, because CSM8 is all about risk / reward. Oh, and when I say more than the cost of doing it at a POS, I am talking about under this new world order where your internal copying costs include the new surcharge you get copying at your own POS. But you do get slightly lower costs if you choose to keep a POS up because you don't need research modules. Of course, the entire corp cam pull up stakes and move further from a trade hub, hoping to find some quiet cheap place. The opportunity cost of that is zero, because time is free in Eve, and no one ever ganks someone moving billions in BPO's.

Result: Much more costly for a corp to copy / research compared to today, but equally as safe, so a NET NEGATIVE.

2. Multi-player corporation decides to move their BPO's out to their POS to take advantage of the much lower costs of using NPC station copying and also the efficiencies of the POS research, whatever they end up to be. Of course, it still costs more than today, since no one anywhere is immune to surcharges of some sort. And as an added bonus, you now have HUGE risk of corp theft since you can't lock down the BPO's. And as another lovely feature, you just pained a big bullseye on your corp by having research mods at your POS screaming "JUICY BPO's HERE, PLEASE WAR DEC US!!!!"

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

3. Single player indy corp decides to move BPO's to take advantage of efficiencies as in scenario 2. Same risks as #2, except no corp theft. Same added cost.

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

There is no scenario here that benefits someone who is casual or serious about industry in high sec.

Of course, we have yet to see the other shoe drop with all the advantages being gifted to null sec with the costing structure, but we already know that each null sec station now has unlimited mfg and research slots.

Looks like mynnna, Malcanis, and the rest of the CSM rammed through the changes they wanted.


We don't know the price points because details on POS S&I have yet to be released.
More risk for more reward is the paradigm CCP mentioned in the blog, and people can chose the level of risk they wish to take. Just because you think having BPO's in a POS is too much risk does not mean everyone else will.

I have a research POS with 10 Labs on it today, and had to deal with wardecs of the billion+ POS loot. Learning how to arm your POS will thwart many would-be attackers. Having friends to aid you in times of war goes even farther for securing your assets. Furthermore, the 24hr warning before a war goes active provides a nice window to get your stuff safe. There are many ways you can make POS assets fairly safe, you just have to utilize them.
I LIKE IT
HIGH RISK INVESTMENT
#968 - 2014-04-16 17:09:38 UTC
I LIKE IT!
Destiven Mare
Ghost Net Industrialists
Valkyrie Alliance
#969 - 2014-04-16 17:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiven Mare
I understand CCP's real motivation to release the blogs in segments: to drum up anticipation and interest in an area that is difficult for some players to understand/care about

However, for those of us that both understand and do industry/science on a regular basis and need answers to the dozens of open questions that are raised in parts 1 and 2 in this series of blogs, we are understandably frustrated by the "Hide the ball approach" of "wait until we publish the rest of the story." The cover of "if we do it in one post, then it will be too long" is both flimsy and insulting. The industrial community is not replete with "tl:dr" types.

It is utterly infuriating for CCP to open so many different avenues in one dev blog yet fail to answer the logical questions posed by the playerbase by saying: "just wait, we will tell you later."

Don't treat us like this CCP. We deserve better.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#970 - 2014-04-16 17:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Allison A'vani
Why are you adding cost scaling onto POSes? You already pay for fuel. There is literally zero lore or other fantasized reason to put cost scaling on POSes. I OWN THE POS and I OWN THE ASSEMBLY ARRAY. There is no magical invisible person doing anything other than me. Sure, I can live with only copying from now on at stations, but if you are going to add scaling cost to invention and manufacturing at a POS on top of the fuel cost, then why would I bother having a POS at all? I will just JF to one of the 50+ stations that is under PL / BOT control and manufacture there. The JF fuel cost is negligible compared to the cost of maintaining a POS.

Topes used in 1 Rhea JDC V, JFC V, JF IV: +/- 7k Nitrogen Isotopes

Cost of 1 day for a medium POS: 9600 Nitrogen Isotopes

...and that is just the topes ALONE.


There is literally no reason for anyone with access to multiple null outposts to ever use a POS for invention or manufacturing after this change, unless the tax is stupid high.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#971 - 2014-04-16 17:38:38 UTC
Two step wrote:
Given that you want people to move to POS industry, any chance you can just delete the 8 million different POS factory things and make a more sensible set of them? Give people efficient/fast and just a few sizes, but don't make us anchor 15 different stupid factories and move stuff between then?

Also, as was mentioned above, people *need* to be able to see into their POS inventories remotely, without having to use the API (especially because the assets API is, what, a 6 hour cache time?). The API also currently doesn't return ME/PE levels for BPOs/BPOs, so it isn't a real replacement anyway.


Still waiting for a reply on this from the Devs. It got a lot of likes, I think other people would also appreciate a response.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#972 - 2014-04-16 17:49:26 UTC
Destiven Mare wrote:
I understand CCP's real motivation to release the blogs in segments: to drum up anticipation and interest in an area that is difficult for some players to understand/care about

However, for those of us that both understand and do industry/science on a regular basis and need answers to the dozens of open questions that are raised in parts 1 and 2 in this series of blogs, we are understandably frustrated by the "Hide the ball approach" of "wait until we publish the rest of the story." The cover of "if we do it in one post, then it will be too long" is both flimsy and insulting. The industrial community is not replete with "tl:dr" types.

It is utterly infuriating for CCP to open so many different avenues in one dev blog yet fail to answer the logical questions posed by the playerbase by saying: "just wait, we will tell you later."

Don't treat us like this CCP. We deserve better.


A few things you need to consider.
♦ This expansion is many months away. They are giving us time to absorb what is going on. They are giving those attending fanfest time to clarify their needs and questions. They are giving us time to identify issues.

♦ They want to ensure the information is presented clearly, and honestly. This means they can't go all out explaining ever little detail, especially since not all the details are fully worked out. I'd prefer to know now, get my questions together on what I want to know, give them time to address it, and move on from there. Really, you should be happy you are getting this information now, as opposed to after fanfest (which is the normal timeframe).
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#973 - 2014-04-16 17:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Muestereate wrote:
...words...


This post is actually relevant and good feedback, if a bit disjointed.

Iconography is vitally important in a GUI. When someone looks at an icon, the symbology needs to be easily identifiable. Several of the proposed icons are just complete mysteries to me. But I'll go through the entire set.

The 3 icons on the top left:

  • The top-most one had me staring for a minute before identifying it as a set of pliers. Specifically, they remind me of Linesman's Pliers for electrical use. Pliers are tools. So the connection is there. But many people won't make that connection if they've never seen linesman's pliers. So perhaps a wrench? I assume a wrench was not used because too many people might connect that with repairs. Also perhaps a hammer or anvil.
  • Middle is indeed a TIP-body semiconductor device. Could be a transistor. Could be something more complicated. I know that because I work on electronics for a living. But the vast majority of players seeing that symbol will have no clue what it is. I can tell you it is a middle-level part made from other things that goes into another thing. So it makes sense to me, and will make sense to anyone that recognizes it. Perhaps a better, more easily recognized icon would be a cog or gear of some kind.
  • Third is a crystal. Crystals, minerals... ok. I honestly can't think of anything better. But what about when you're making those parts? Will moon metals and gases also go here?


As for the circular bars, I like it. No numbers except where specifically required. Otherwise, fractional visual circular references. Color and center icon changes when it hits 100%. Same goes for the runs / runs remaining in the center. Again, I like it.

To the right of center, it took me a bit to figure out. The gemstone makes no sense on its own. Having it higher up puts it in the more prominent position and thus the first of the two to be looked at. Not until I look at the hourglass below it (an obvious time reference) do I realize that the hourglass is for Production Efficiency and the gem is for Material Efficiency.

But... not exactly. More like 6% waste, and... yeah. don't know. Is time being wasted or is efficiency increased... no frame of reference. Its very ahrd to understand what is going on here. Add some signs to those numbers. If you're adding materials to account for wastage, use a plus sign. If reducing time spent, then use a minus sign.

I also noticed that the actual levels are no longer listed. Will those be available somewhere?


States and Activities icons:

  • The factory screams production and/or manufacturing. Perfect.
  • Factory with an hourglass says right off Production Efficiency, but not necessarily research. Close enough.
  • Factory with the gemstone, after figuring out from the stuff above, then logically flows to Material Efficiency research. But again, the factory doesn't necessarily indicate research but production. In combination with what we already know, it can work.
  • Two beekers overlapping. Some sort of lab activity? Doesn't really make much sense. The dual aspect lends itself to copying.
  • A microscope. Now this screams research of some kind. But what kind? All we have left is Invention and Reverse Engineering. But on a Megathron BPC?
  • An atom. wtf... idgi. No idea. Again a Megathron BPC.

3 of the icons can be easily or semi-easily identified. One is iffy at best, and I'm not at all confident about that. The other two just make no sense. I can't even begin to fathom what they mean.


Suggestions:

For Reverse Engineering, use a Square. Not a basic geometric shape square. An actual Square: the tool. I feel that would be an excellent symbol for engineering. Alternatively, a compass, like the Free Masons use for a symbol. Not a magnetic compass. (Wanted to be clear.) Or even perhaps a slide rule.

For Invention use a light bulb. The symbology is obvious to me.

For Copying, 3 filled rectangles overlapping and offset in both axis would resemble a stack of paper, which is an obvious symbol of copying.

The other 3 should be fine.


And finally the job state icons. Big red 'X' stands out and contrasts the check marks that clearly indicate doneness and completion. Big red 'x' seems to indicate something is wrong. So a cancelled job that has yet be have the inputs returned?

Two different play icons. In process. But two. Which is which? What is the difference? A job is either running, canceled (red 'x'), complete (check-mark), or paused due to a tower going offline. Perhaps a paused job should have a pause double-bar symbol, and a running job should have a play symbol.

On background color and text emphasis: Imo subdued text should indicate low priority. Bright colors and backgrounds should be for high-priority "Look at me!" attention grabbing, like the big red 'x' job. If something is running normally, there really isn't any reason for it to have more attention than something that has finished and needs to be closed out, or has aborted and needs attention.

Swap the subdued and normal emphasis texts so that complete jobs are normal and running jobs are subdued.

Reserve bright backgrounds or bold(er) text for really important "look at me" jobs.

The blue background seems to me to be the currently selected item, and if so works fine for me.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#974 - 2014-04-16 18:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Allison A'vani wrote:
Why are you adding cost scaling onto POSes? You already pay for fuel. There is literally zero lore or other fantasized reason to put cost scaling on POSes. I OWN THE POS and I OWN THE ASSEMBLY ARRAY. There is no magical invisible person doing anything other than me. Sure, I can live with only copying from now on at stations, but if you are going to add scaling cost to invention and manufacturing at a POS on top of the fuel cost, then why would I bother having a POS at all? I will just JF to one of the 50+ stations that is under PL / BOT control and manufacture there. The JF fuel cost is negligible compared to the cost of maintaining a POS.

Topes used in 1 Rhea JDC V, JFC V, JF IV: +/- 7k Nitrogen Isotopes

Cost of 1 day for a medium POS: 9600 Nitrogen Isotopes

...and that is just the topes ALONE.


There is literally no reason for anyone with access to multiple null outposts to ever use a POS for invention or manufacturing after this change, unless the tax is stupid high.


Lore should always take second place to game balance.

If CCP removes POS lines, and lets you run an infinite number of simultaneous jobs at a POS, with no cost, how do you imagine that will be balanced? Because you pay 300k / hr to run your Medium POS?

Calm down and wait for the numbers. Details will come, and you don't need them this second. Relax, breathe, and smile, *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#975 - 2014-04-16 18:01:25 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Proton Power wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Questions I have not seen a dev answer:

1. Will the 14% surcharge be calculated on the raw material cost of the products, or the estimated sell value? I assume that CCP will use the mechanism that calculates the value of an item in my hangar now.

2. Will someone be able to lock down BPO's at a POS, like they can at a station?


1 - Nobody knows yet.

2 - No.


Here are the 3 scenarios that play out.

1. Corporation keeps their BPO's locked down safe and sound in a station, and gets hit with a huge copying fee, completely out their control, as the market demand dictates the fee structure. And you KNOW that the fees will be more than what it will cost to do the copying at the POS, because CSM8 is all about risk / reward. Oh, and when I say more than the cost of doing it at a POS, I am talking about under this new world order where your internal copying costs include the new surcharge you get copying at your own POS. But you do get slightly lower costs if you choose to keep a POS up because you don't need research modules. Of course, the entire corp cam pull up stakes and move further from a trade hub, hoping to find some quiet cheap place. The opportunity cost of that is zero, because time is free in Eve, and no one ever ganks someone moving billions in BPO's.

Result: Much more costly for a corp to copy / research compared to today, but equally as safe, so a NET NEGATIVE.

2. Multi-player corporation decides to move their BPO's out to their POS to take advantage of the much lower costs of using NPC station copying and also the efficiencies of the POS research, whatever they end up to be. Of course, it still costs more than today, since no one anywhere is immune to surcharges of some sort. And as an added bonus, you now have HUGE risk of corp theft since you can't lock down the BPO's. And as another lovely feature, you just pained a big bullseye on your corp by having research mods at your POS screaming "JUICY BPO's HERE, PLEASE WAR DEC US!!!!"

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

3. Single player indy corp decides to move BPO's to take advantage of efficiencies as in scenario 2. Same risks as #2, except no corp theft. Same added cost.

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

There is no scenario here that benefits someone who is casual or serious about industry in high sec.

Of course, we have yet to see the other shoe drop with all the advantages being gifted to null sec with the costing structure, but we already know that each null sec station now has unlimited mfg and research slots.

Looks like mynnna, Malcanis, and the rest of the CSM rammed through the changes they wanted.


We don't know the price points because details on POS S&I have yet to be released.
More risk for more reward is the paradigm CCP mentioned in the blog, and people can chose the level of risk they wish to take. Just because you think having BPO's in a POS is too much risk does not mean everyone else will.

I have a research POS with 10 Labs on it today, and had to deal with wardecs of the billion+ POS loot. Learning how to arm your POS will thwart many would-be attackers. Having friends to aid you in times of war goes even farther for securing your assets. Furthermore, the 24hr warning before a war goes active provides a nice window to get your stuff safe. There are many ways you can make POS assets fairly safe, you just have to utilize them.


I too used to run a POS. I did T2 invention mfg and cap mfg in high sec and next door in low. Some of your corp members are likely flying in capitals I made for your group, before one of your guys moved on to PL. I had to deal with all the risks that you do today, and am well aware of the risk /reward balance we have today in high / low.

But bottom line, this looks more like lower reward / much higher risk is what we are facing.
Do you seriously believe that CCP, who at every turn, has nerfed high sec income, is about to give it a buff?
At best, costs will remain the same, and risk goes way higher.

But yeah, let's peg this conversation until the other shoe drops on costs, and we can see how much high sec industry just got hammered. Because we both know, that just like refining efficiency, the null sec cartels are about to be gifted huge advantages compared to high sec.
Kithran
#976 - 2014-04-16 18:05:43 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
sci0gon wrote:
ccp confirmation required.

when this change goes live will the bpos that were in the middle of production at the time be relocated to any pos mods that the production was started in or will it continue to export back to its locked down status in the station?

also is there the possibility that you guys may complete all build jobs on the server to free up the bpos so that the players can have peace of mind during the update that they are safely in the station and will have to decide after that whether or not they wish to continue to build in a pos or stick to station building?

also will there be any other purpose to high standings than what is in the game currently?


The issue regarding how to migrate blueprints using starbase when the expansion hits has been noted. We'll update this thread when we have more information about this.


I know there isn't a release date for this expansion but please bear in mind if you are planning to move bpos under research into a POS when this expansion hits the answer needs to be known ideally 3 months in advance otherwise people could find titan bpos moved and being unable to do anything about it other than cancel the job.

Oh and before people say thats an edge case, people with those sort of bpos can afford it etc remember its still over a month for research on say a freighter bpo.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#977 - 2014-04-16 18:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Kolonko
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Querns wrote:
I thought of a potential gotcha: Will POS assembly modules also have their slots removed? Will you be able to, e.g., run an infinite number of ammo jobs from a single ammo assembly array?


Yes, slots are being removed on everything, however, cost scaling will still be applicable to Starbases as well. Please wait for the appropriate blog for more details.


Wait, what?!
So what is my incentive to pay 300 000 000 isk a month for fuel if i still have to pay for production slots????


Starbases will have reduced tax cost next to NPC station, and mobile labs / assembly array will have more efficient ME / PE lines.



I don't care about ME/PE - i'm doing reverse and t3 production, i'm worried about my production slots. What is my incentive there?

What about my WH POS? Will it also miraculously start paying someone?
Destiven Mare
Ghost Net Industrialists
Valkyrie Alliance
#978 - 2014-04-16 18:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiven Mare
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Destiven Mare wrote:
I understand CCP's real motivation to release the blogs in segments: to drum up anticipation and interest in an area that is difficult for some players to understand/care about

However, for those of us that both understand and do industry/science on a regular basis and need answers to the dozens of open questions that are raised in parts 1 and 2 in this series of blogs, we are understandably frustrated by the "Hide the ball approach" of "wait until we publish the rest of the story." The cover of "if we do it in one post, then it will be too long" is both flimsy and insulting. The industrial community is not replete with "tl:dr" types.

It is utterly infuriating for CCP to open so many different avenues in one dev blog yet fail to answer the logical questions posed by the playerbase by saying: "just wait, we will tell you later."

Don't treat us like this CCP. We deserve better.


A few things you need to consider.
♦ This expansion is many months away. They are giving us time to absorb what is going on. They are giving those attending fanfest time to clarify their needs and questions. They are giving us time to identify issues.

♦ They want to ensure the information is presented clearly, and honestly. This means they can't go all out explaining ever little detail, especially since not all the details are fully worked out. I'd prefer to know now, get my questions together on what I want to know, give them time to address it, and move on from there. Really, you should be happy you are getting this information now, as opposed to after fanfest (which is the normal timeframe).


I respectfully disagree with your position. CCP *can* go over every little detail, instead they are transparently attempting to whet an appetite. While I agree that they are instituting a major change to a complex part of the game, I am not content to accept what is spoon-fed to me.

I do not believe it is unfair to ask CCP to release a complete blog for us to digest and one to which the community can pose well considered questions. The piecemeal approach taken to this issue unfortunately conforms with the approach CCP uses with patch releases: "rush it out, unfinished and issue daily patches until we get it right" I am merely asking CCP to take their time and give us a full picture in one shot instead of leaving us to wonder.
Valterra Craven
#979 - 2014-04-16 18:15:02 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Destiven Mare wrote:
I understand CCP's real motivation to release the blogs in segments: to drum up anticipation and interest in an area that is difficult for some players to understand/care about

However, for those of us that both understand and do industry/science on a regular basis and need answers to the dozens of open questions that are raised in parts 1 and 2 in this series of blogs, we are understandably frustrated by the "Hide the ball approach" of "wait until we publish the rest of the story." The cover of "if we do it in one post, then it will be too long" is both flimsy and insulting. The industrial community is not replete with "tl:dr" types.

It is utterly infuriating for CCP to open so many different avenues in one dev blog yet fail to answer the logical questions posed by the playerbase by saying: "just wait, we will tell you later."

Don't treat us like this CCP. We deserve better.


A few things you need to consider.
♦ This expansion is many months away. They are giving us time to absorb what is going on. They are giving those attending fanfest time to clarify their needs and questions. They are giving us time to identify issues.



I don't know if we "deserve" better. But that is a topic for a different post.

But I'd like to make one slight note here. Last summer expansion hit around June 6th. While no official date has been given for this one, Its likely they try to hit the same target. That is neither months away or an excuse not to release ALL of the information at one time.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#980 - 2014-04-16 18:16:17 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
What about my WH POS? Will it also miraculously start paying someone?

Those would be some pretty adventurous tax collectors.