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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#541 - 2014-04-15 21:27:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:
The change is NOT going to have the intended consequenc (BPOs getting destroyed/captured in POS bash). It will just be a major pain in the rear to supply the BPCs that will be used for the actual construction.

This is the Bad Complexity that the dev blog mentions they want to get rid of. Instead, they create a basket load of it..

Yeah. That's my feeling too. The just replace on silly thing by another.

But let's wait and see what the other dev blogs have to tell us.


No, you are both right.

It's now an established hi sec custom, to always go for the maximum AFK possibly coupled with the maximum safety.

The new changes impact on both, players will fear to lose the valuable BPOs so everything that has some value will be subject to a copy => produce process, adding 1 more step to the process.

Yes, you gain one step (if you chose to) to work from a POS, but will lose countless other steps and time sinks.

We'll see what the other blogs hold, but I'm pretty confident the end result will be the ability to manage all of your research and production related jobs from where ever you happen to be, and with a minimum number of mouse clicks (read batches of jobs)... all of which start immediately without waiting for a slot to open.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Marsha Mallow
#542 - 2014-04-15 21:29:27 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
The annoying part about posting with you is that in every other thread I read with you in I say "Tippia is so right."

I've literally been doing that for years.


Maybe you have been wrong in your beliefs for years?

Tippia is a posting machine made to self promote as The Prophet of Being Right. Of course (s)he chooses obvious arguments, usually agrees with the established groupthink (because doing so, won't go against smart and powerful opponents) and generally with the currently winning train of thought.

You have been used.

So are you, tbf - but both of you are quite nice so no need to get uppity about it :P
One day, Trippia is going to drunkpost and cartwheel naked across the forums, just randomly making stuff up. Telling you.

In the meantime, it's entirely permissable to shuffle your feet and mutter "Whatever, mother". I bet even the devs do it.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#543 - 2014-04-15 21:29:31 UTC
I have a feeling that the indy management is moving to a similar method to PI in that once you have your stations somewhere you will be able to manage them from anywhere.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#544 - 2014-04-15 21:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Can we please have a blueprint silo for POS instead of having to muck around with putting them in each lab? Also for input materials. A POS silo to hold all manufacturing and invention input materials would reduce useless clicking to distribute amongst labs and arrays.

Edit:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
You will be able to see all your blueprints in assembly arrays etc and remotely start jobs from containers, so that should cover your use case.

EDIT: There is also a nice search / filter interface, you will get some time on SiSi to give us feedback on how this works before we go live too.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#545 - 2014-04-15 21:30:14 UTC
It sounds like there may no longer be a need to have high sec research POSes anymore ?

I'm not sure removing the standings requirement is a good idea. I expect NPC corps are next on the list to be removed ?

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#546 - 2014-04-15 21:30:40 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
The annoying part about posting with you is that in every other thread I read with you in I say "Tippia is so right."

I've literally been doing that for years.


Maybe you have been wrong in your beliefs for years?

Tippia is a posting machine made to self promote as The Prophet of Being Right. Of course (s)he chooses obvious arguments, usually agrees with the established groupthink (because doing so, won't go against smart and powerful opponents) and generally with the currently winning train of thought.

You have been used.

So are you, tbf - but both of you are quite nice so no need to get uppity about it :P
One day, Trippia is going to drunkpost and cartwheel naked across the forums, just randomly making stuff up. Telling you.

In the meantime, it's entirely permissable to shuffle your feet and mutter "Whatever, mother". I bet even the devs do it.

Tippia better never do that... that's MY job...

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#547 - 2014-04-15 21:34:11 UTC
some things that i don't like:

BPCs:

some of them have really bad numbers that need to be adressed. restarting jobs every few hours in not acceptable. i can live with some kind of small penalty for combining BPCs or queuing them up (without requiring extra slots) but low run BPCs are not cool.

Removal of Standings:

You increased the importance of standings to the refinery formula but removed them from the POS completely ? meh. they should be relevant, but not for the actual pos, but for the upkeep cost (maybe more charters with lower standings ?)

BPCs part II:

I don't like the fact that working with BPC is better than working with BPOs. i really want to see a POS being killed for its blueprints. please reconsider this. maybe a small ME/PE penalty on BPCs ?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#548 - 2014-04-15 21:34:16 UTC
If it's possible, I'd like to see the following added:

All stations with rookie industry agents are limited to 'civilian' blueprints.

That way, the cost for rookies shouldn't be too bad, when they're going through their tutorials, rather than the stations being constantly jam packed.

Then just make sure the free venture bpc is tagged civilian.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#549 - 2014-04-15 21:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Ranger 1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

The new changes impact on both, players will fear to lose the valuable BPOs so everything that has some value will be subject to a copy => produce process, adding 1 more step to the process.

Yes, you gain one step (if you chose to) to work from a POS, but will lose countless other steps and time sinks.

We'll see what the other blogs hold, but I'm pretty confident the end result will be the ability to manage all of your research and production related jobs from where ever you happen to be, and with a minimum number of mouse clicks (read batches of jobs)... all of which start immediately without waiting for a slot to open.


My thought was focused on the quoted text talking about how the changes will basically push hi seccers into taking 1 step more. Nothing more, too little details known as of now to form a focused opinion.

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Tarikla
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#550 - 2014-04-15 21:40:19 UTC
I have ONE major grip about all this :

Quote:

Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements (minus some protected solar systems, like Jita or new player starting systems of course).


This change is killing the whole point of faction standings. The system was already not really great, for standings that takes weeks or even months of farming missions, all you had was the privilege of anchoring POS in High-Sec, and the 1 time BPC with very high standings.

There is an whole economy revolving around standing boosts and selling of corps with high standings. And you are throwing that out of the window completly. It wasn't hard to find someone with high standings to get you a corp or a boost, with a fee of course.

But now, you can anchor POS all the way up to 1.0 with no effort and an almost blank alt in a corp. What's the point of faction standings then ? Only some BPC, and the usual "if you go below -5 navy chase you" & "can't go higher than l1 mish if below -2" ? Both those things are easily avoided with the Diplomacy skill if you want. So basically, doing storyline missions, who requires an lenghty amount of time to get, only means that you gonna get a small goodie at the end. by the time you reach a BPC, you will certainly got *100 or even more it's value in regular missions.

I don't see any reasons now to do Storyline missions. Factions Standings are utterly useless right now, just for the sake of banalizing POS Usage. The already poor PVE side of Eve got dumbed down a little more.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#551 - 2014-04-15 21:40:39 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Maybe you have been wrong in your beliefs for years?

Tippia is a posting machine made to self promote as The Prophet of Being Right. Of course (s)he chooses obvious arguments, usually agrees with the established groupthink (because doing so, won't go against smart and powerful opponents) and generally with the currently winning train of thought.

You have been used.


Been saying this literally for years although less eloquently. My faith in the mankind is restored.

Thank you VV

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#552 - 2014-04-15 21:41:56 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:

So are you, tbf - but both of you are quite nice so no need to get uppity about it :P
One day, Trippia is going to drunkpost and cartwheel naked across the forums, just randomly making stuff up. Telling you.

In the meantime, it's entirely permissable to shuffle your feet and mutter "Whatever, mother". I bet even the devs do it.


I am not a compulsive poster nor I care for "likes" nor I go with the river flow. Actually you may easily verify I usually go completely contrarian. I do like to be right, but I am not into rethorics. English IS my third tongue to begin with, and I prefer the "I sit at the river shore and wait for the enemy corpse to pass" approach.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#553 - 2014-04-15 21:42:05 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
If it's possible, I'd like to see the following added:

All stations with rookie industry agents are limited to 'civilian' blueprints.

That way, the cost for rookies shouldn't be too bad, when they're going through their tutorials, rather than the stations being constantly jam packed.

Then just make sure the free venture bpc is tagged civilian.

Hmmm, interesting.

By the time they realize that they are paying more in a busy rookie system to build they are old enough to be encouraged to leave the nest.

I think it is a good thing for rookies to realize that stepping out into the larger world can have distinct benefits.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#554 - 2014-04-15 21:43:01 UTC
In case people are interested, that's around 13400 new moons added to the pool of highsec anchorable moons (currently around 33000)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#555 - 2014-04-15 21:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
First I'd like to give a big thank you to the devs focusing on industry. As someone who basically has done industry for the eight years I've played, this is so exciting to see your focus and enthusiasm towards reworking the entire system. While I am scared to think of all the updates I'll have to make in EVE IPH, this is very good to see.

On the remaining of categories, good and needed change for clarity.

On the removal of extra materials, also good. It didn't bother me much since I have it built into IPH but it is a frequent question from players. It is also kind of moot now after the refining changes so glad you did this.

On the RAMs, thank god you did this. I have been asking for this change for years.

The last two changes, industry lines at stations and pos changes, may have angered some but I think they are 100% in the right direction. Industry has become a tedious but largely low-risk monotonous process. I know because I do it. While I live in nullsec, my high sec alts constantly pump out items in a risk free production chain that costs me very little to do outside of materials. With these changes, you walked right up to my beautiful sand castle, kicked it over, showed me your plans and I'm smiling because of it. Why? Because I want more interesting gameplay and right now we don't have it. Others here obviously disagree because they like their nice, organized, risk free castle building. Keep kicking I say. If they don't want to change to a more interesting industry system, more profit for those (aka me) that do.

I do have a few ideas and comments though.

On the pos placing anywhere without standings, as someone who maintains two one-man corps to keep standings for poses, I'm fine with the removal of these restrictions. However, there needs to be better balance on abandoned poses. Instead of all these new requirements and such, I suggest letting abandoned poses be attacked with suspect flags and remove shields from the hps to kill them. Maybe some further adjustments are needed but the wardec system is a slow and painful way to get an industry result. This change adds more conflict...oh and helps the pos tower market. :)

On the lock down issue, I think you are saying that you aren't going to allow this in a pos? If you are banking on the reduced copy times an changes to runs for capital components, then I think that's fine. Coupled with cost reductions through teamwork in a station, there shouldn't be any issues. Just keep capital production in mind.

On T2 BPOs, please don't reduce copy times here without a real balancing effect for invention. The status quo is ok but changing copy times would make it worse.

Finally, I'm very interested in new APIs from this overhaul that support third party development. One of the longest standing issues is having me/PE information for owned bps. Other ideas that come to mind now are production costs per station, etc. looking for more on this later.

I said to myself the other day that I wish I had more time to play the game...all while doing industry. Sure I could so something else but I like to maximize my isk per hour (kinda obvious though right?) so I do industry. The changes you hinted at seem to be completely in line with my expectations. Can't wait to see more.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#556 - 2014-04-15 21:43:54 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Halia Thorak wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Adellle Nadair wrote:
Quote:
Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials.


This is the worst single idea I have ever seen from a dev. DO NOT DO THIS CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!

We already risk a large amount of isk in just having the labs/datacores/decryptors and all of the copies needed out at a pos. Forcing us to either risk a huge amount more than that, or move the bpos to other much more populated stations that are already overpopulated (that don't have corp offices available or available for anywhere near a reasonable price) and incur a high cost that will greatly reduce production profit or negate it all together, is a horrible change. You as devs do not understand the amount of bpos required to make copies for t2 invention. And you clearly don't understand the organization and the necessity of being able to efficiently access bpos and the time commitment that industry already takes. It is incredibly shortsighted and ignorant of you to assume that it is only a slight amount of isk that we will be risking. We use and need easy access to hundreds of bpos to make the copies we need to be able to do invention. Asking us to risk multiple billions in bpos is insane. And no, I know I don't have to keep all of the bpos I am not using at the pos. However, the addition of moving around the needed bpos from the station to the pos adds an additional step and organizational nightmare to an already complicated system. Because of the nature of industry NOTHING you do with the UI and other new features will change this.

This change will also create an additional hassle organizational nightmare for players who need to find or move bpos around. Industry is already complicated enough without having to deal with moving all of the bpos around. DO NOT take away our ability to organize bpos in one central station corp office so multiple characters can easily have access to them and can quickly and efficiently install jobs. DO NOT make us do more work and take more time to do industry jobs.

Another severely overlooked issue that this creates: This removes the ability of safely sharing bpos by locking them down in corp hanger in a station. BPOs can't be locked down at a pos. This change will limit how and where we can play severely. It forces people who want to play together to use certain systems and certain stations, to pay for spots at those stations and it practically makes setting up a pos a waste of time and effort, because it limits its usefulness. In the culture of eve (griefers/corp thieves/all) this change removes several much needed elements of safety that allow us to enjoy playing and interacting with a larger player base.

If you have decided to do this, as is suggested by other statements in this dev blog, because you haven't worked out how to deal how the slot change affects pos mods, then DO NOT make this change until you come up with a better solution. Because this is NOT the way to make this change happen.

POSes are expensive, take time, effort and a good amount of isk to maintain already. Forcing us to risk a considerable amount more and in doing so increase the amount of busy work that is required for doing industry is not a good change.

I personally have been playing Eve for 5 and a half years. Industry is one part of the game that I greatly enjoy doing. If this change does go through I will have to seriously consider if it is worth it to keep paying for my 4 accounts. Many of my friends who like this element of the game are already talking about leaving because of this. I sincerely hope that you will not go through with this change and that the other forthcoming industry changes are much more intelligently and thoughtfully crafted than this. If not, you will be losing a large group of your paying customers.


This. I'm not planning to quit but if this change goes through you can bet your ass you will be shutting down most of the REAL industry corporations with REAL members as well as mass producers as the risk and effort will no longer be worth it.


I have to agree if the profits dive as much as they will with this change, I can see a lot of the long time producers shutting shops as their isk/hour vs invested time will just plummet to a figure not worth their time.

Or market prices will adjust (as they always do) to keep the activity just as profitable as it is now....


Or...as the next 4 dev blogs will reveal, this is just the first step in eviscerating high sec industry and null sec industry will be given even MORE advantages that make it impossible to run either a casual high sec indy corp or a large scale dedicated industrial corp.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#557 - 2014-04-15 21:44:00 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
If it's possible, I'd like to see the following added:

All stations with rookie industry agents are limited to 'civilian' blueprints.

That way, the cost for rookies shouldn't be too bad, when they're going through their tutorials, rather than the stations being constantly jam packed.

Then just make sure the free venture bpc is tagged civilian.


you can always simply make sure the rookie systems are uneffected by the congestion charges. or make sure the charge formula takes the length of the job into account.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#558 - 2014-04-15 21:44:09 UTC
Come on. Post the next blog already.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#559 - 2014-04-15 21:45:45 UTC
Quote:
On T2 BPOs, please don't reduce copy times here without a real balancing effect for invention. The status quo is ok but changing copy times would make it worse.


Inventors would benefit far more than T2 BPO owners from reduced copy times.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#560 - 2014-04-15 21:45:59 UTC
Please lower resists on offline POS. There should be a more significant risk to letting them run out of fuel. At the moment I just put it offline when I have finishes my jobs because it is perfectly safe.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.