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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

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Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#441 - 2014-04-13 18:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Updated to the second iteration on April 11th, thanks for the feedback so far:

The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, but gain an extra low slot (bringing their fitted yield up to the same level as the Retriever and Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense.


PROCURER

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 4M, 2L;
Fittings: 45 PWG, 255(+5) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000 / 5000 / 5500
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 800 / 187.5s / 4.27
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 160(+70) / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 440(-220) / 5(+1)
Sensor strength: 10
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 12000m3



I've looked and looked and I don't see the extra low slot? The slot layout is the same as the current Procurer

Nerfing Hisec has never fixed Losec or Nullsec
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#442 - 2014-04-13 18:54:21 UTC
Kellaen wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
With cycle reduction bonuses instead of yield bonuses, you MUST give capacitor amount increases / recharge time reductions!

The Hulk is already marginal with Arkonor II crystals +50% capacitor need penalty. [Mercoxit II are equivalent.]

The Covetor is hopeless in this regard.

Mining Foreman Link - Harvester Capacitor Efficiency II

There was no announcement that the bonus on the link was increasing.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#443 - 2014-04-13 19:04:23 UTC
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Updated to the second iteration on April 11th, thanks for the feedback so far:

The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, but gain an extra low slot (bringing their fitted yield up to the same level as the Retriever and Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense.


PROCURER

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 4M, 2L;
Fittings: 45 PWG, 255(+5) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000 / 5000 / 5500
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 800 / 187.5s / 4.27
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 160(+70) / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 440(-220) / 5(+1)
Sensor strength: 10
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 12000m3



I've looked and looked and I don't see the extra low slot? The slot layout is the same as the current Procurer



They changed that back. Fozzie just hasn't updated the text. (if you flip through the dev posts, you'll find it. click the blue bar on their portraits for the next post)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#444 - 2014-04-13 19:06:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Updated to the second iteration on April 11th, thanks for the feedback so far:

The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, but gain an extra low slot (bringing their fitted yield up to the same level as the Retriever and Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense.


PROCURER

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 4M, 2L;
Fittings: 45 PWG, 255(+5) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000 / 5000 / 5500
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 800 / 187.5s / 4.27
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 160(+70) / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 440(-220) / 5(+1)
Sensor strength: 10
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 12000m3



I've looked and looked and I don't see the extra low slot? The slot layout is the same as the current Procurer



They changed that back. Fozzie just hasn't updated the text. (if you flip through the dev posts, you'll find it. click the blue bar on their portraits for the next post)


Yeah I just read that so never mind...bad lazy Fozzie Lol

Nerfing Hisec has never fixed Losec or Nullsec
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#445 - 2014-04-13 19:28:50 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Kellaen wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
With cycle reduction bonuses instead of yield bonuses, you MUST give capacitor amount increases / recharge time reductions!

The Hulk is already marginal with Arkonor II crystals +50% capacitor need penalty. [Mercoxit II are equivalent.]

The Covetor is hopeless in this regard.

Mining Foreman Link - Harvester Capacitor Efficiency II

Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization II

Reduces cycle time, leaves you in the same situation where you cap yourself out running lasers.

but you pretty much don't cap yourself out running lasers. if you do, spend 2-3 days training some basic capacitor skills.

The links are currently capacitor neutral: the cycle reduction link is countered by the capacitor reduction link. [All links work this way.]

At max skill, the Hulk has:
625 * (1 + Capacitor Management 5 * 5%) = 781.25 GJ of capacitor.

To activate strips it takes:
3 * 120 GJ * (1 + 50% Arkonor II Mining Crystal) = 540 GJ of capacitor used

So in other words to activate strips:
540 GJ / 781 GJ = 69.1% of capacitor
Or in other words you have:
1 - 540 GJ / 781 GJ = 30.9% capacitor remaining, and less when operating a shield booster and hardeners.
The only thing that made this workable was the long recharge period between activations.

The proposed role bonuses reduce the recharge time by:
1 - (1 - Mining Barge 5 * 5%) * (1 - Exhumers 5 * 3%) = 36.25%

The Hulk will probably not have enough capacitor for the next activation cycle.
Vaellend
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#446 - 2014-04-13 20:19:57 UTC
pls dont forget the SURVEY Scanner!!!

pls give the Survey Scanner some adapted range to nowdays barges strip miner range

thanks!!
Darkblad
Doomheim
#447 - 2014-04-13 20:39:43 UTC
Vaellend wrote:
pls dont forget the SURVEY Scanner!!!

pls give the Survey Scanner some adapted range to nowdays barges strip miner range

thanks!!

You did notice that?
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Updated to the second iteration on April 11th, thanks for the feedback so far:
[...]
We are implementing the following updates to the plan thanks to your feedback and dicusssion:

To ensure that the Covetor and Hulk can make use of their extra mining range in group situations, we are changing the Mining Laser Field Enhancement gang link to apply its range bonus to Survey Scanners in addition to its current function.
[...]

NPE – ISD – RIP
Darkblad
Doomheim
#448 - 2014-04-13 21:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
Tau Cabalander wrote:
The proposed role bonuses reduce the recharge time by:
1 - (1 - Mining Barge 5 * 5%) * (1 - Exhumers 5 * 3%) = 36.25%

The Hulk will probably not have enough capacitor for the next activation cycle.
It's actually 4 % reduction per Mining Barge level for the Hulk, so the (recharge time) reduction is 32%. But other than that I agree that this might have some impact on capacitor. 540GJ every 122,4seconds.

But:

Today, a Hulk with maximum boost from an Orca (except Capacitor Ganglink) has a Cycle Time of 121.78seconds, close enough for comparison.
I've taken this fitting

Not permanently cycling the Survey Scanner and deactivating the CCC Rig drains that Hulk's after approx. 3minutes, today
CCC Rig active and you're stable at 39%.
So you should be fine once the Fleet boost gets Harvester Capacitor Efficiency I/II added (as you wold today already).

Edit: great Idea from me to add a storyline invulnerability field -.-
This fitting changes the numbers a bit, to currently:


  • Nearly 4 minutes until capacitor is empty without the CCC Rig and stable @ 44% with the CCC Rig
  • Add a Harvester Capacitor Efficiency II link and you're stable at 35% without and 52% with CCC

NPE – ISD – RIP
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#449 - 2014-04-13 21:07:56 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Not permanently cycling the Survey Scanner and deactivating the CCC Rig drains that Hulk's after approx. 3minutes, today CCC Rig active and you're stable at 39%.

Except in the case of veld (and maybe scord), why would you be constantly running your SS anyways? It's not as if the rocks melt *that* fast. Snapshots every 4-5 cycles have always been sufficient for me on low-ends, and maybe every 10 on higher.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#450 - 2014-04-13 21:13:16 UTC
Atum wrote:
Darkblad wrote:
Not permanently cycling the Survey Scanner and deactivating the CCC Rig drains that Hulk's after approx. 3minutes, today CCC Rig active and you're stable at 39%.

Except in the case of veld (and maybe scord), why would you be constantly running your SS anyways? It's not as if the rocks melt *that* fast. Snapshots every 4-5 cycles have always been sufficient for me on low-ends, and maybe every 10 on higher.
I just stated that to make clear why there's a red x-mark in the screenshot, in case someone wonders. No one should keep that one permanently active with the scanner's current mechanics (<- trigger for links to threads about survey scanner changes to appear) Cool

NPE – ISD – RIP
Dave Stark
#451 - 2014-04-14 06:50:22 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Kellaen wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
With cycle reduction bonuses instead of yield bonuses, you MUST give capacitor amount increases / recharge time reductions!

The Hulk is already marginal with Arkonor II crystals +50% capacitor need penalty. [Mercoxit II are equivalent.]

The Covetor is hopeless in this regard.

Mining Foreman Link - Harvester Capacitor Efficiency II

Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization II

Reduces cycle time, leaves you in the same situation where you cap yourself out running lasers.

but you pretty much don't cap yourself out running lasers. if you do, spend 2-3 days training some basic capacitor skills.

The links are currently capacitor neutral: the cycle reduction link is countered by the capacitor reduction link. [All links work this way.]

At max skill, the Hulk has:
625 * (1 + Capacitor Management 5 * 5%) = 781.25 GJ of capacitor.

To activate strips it takes:
3 * 120 GJ * (1 + 50% Arkonor II Mining Crystal) = 540 GJ of capacitor used

So in other words to activate strips:
540 GJ / 781 GJ = 69.1% of capacitor
Or in other words you have:
1 - 540 GJ / 781 GJ = 30.9% capacitor remaining, and less when operating a shield booster and hardeners.
The only thing that made this workable was the long recharge period between activations.

The proposed role bonuses reduce the recharge time by:
1 - (1 - Mining Barge 5 * 5%) * (1 - Exhumers 5 * 3%) = 36.25%

The Hulk will probably not have enough capacitor for the next activation cycle.


then do what a smart person does; stagger your strips.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#452 - 2014-04-14 07:48:46 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:

The links are currently capacitor neutral: the cycle reduction link is countered by the capacitor reduction link. [All links work this way.]

At max skill, the Hulk has:
625 * (1 + Capacitor Management 5 * 5%) = 781.25 GJ of capacitor.

To activate strips it takes:
3 * 120 GJ * (1 + 50% Arkonor II Mining Crystal) = 540 GJ of capacitor used

So in other words to activate strips:
540 GJ / 781 GJ = 69.1% of capacitor
Or in other words you have:
1 - 540 GJ / 781 GJ = 30.9% capacitor remaining, and less when operating a shield booster and hardeners.
The only thing that made this workable was the long recharge period between activations.

The proposed role bonuses reduce the recharge time by:
1 - (1 - Mining Barge 5 * 5%) * (1 - Exhumers 5 * 3%) = 36.25%

The Hulk will probably not have enough capacitor for the next activation cycle.


then do what a smart person does; stagger your strips.

Really, the only point I was trying to make was the point Tau Cabalander made. The point that the one guy pointed out the capacitor efficency link, but that the link is nothing but cap neutral because everybody's also running the cycle time link. I don't personally have any issues with cap stability on my barges, and I'm far more concerned about crystal damage (though the volume change allows me to carry more, the cost over time is going up because of this) than the capacitor use. I just wanted to point out that in mentioning one link, you have to mention the other that directly counters any benefit gained from that one. You can't just assume links... but only the one that helps your argument.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#453 - 2014-04-14 07:56:48 UTC
Overall I'm happy with the changes. Always good to see some love for the mining ships, and I think the distinctions between the ships is nice. I particularly think the range bonus on the hulk gives it space to excel in.

I would still like to have mining sentries and a user for having deep core mining 3+ though.
Linna Baresi
#454 - 2014-04-14 07:58:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Updated to the second iteration on April 11th, thanks for the feedback so far:


The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, but gain an extra low slot (bringing their fitted yield up to the same level as the Retriever and Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense.

[...]

The scan resolution on the Retriever and Mackinaw is being reduced by 17%, and the Procurer and Skiff reduced by 33%. This is partially to provide a small lock speed advantage to the Covetor/Hulk, and partially to ensure that the Procurer and Skiff avoid becoming too powerful in combat. The scan resolution on all barges remains exceptionally good, comparable to destroyers and frigates.


Personally, as a highsec Skiff pilot, I'd rather keep the scan resolution as is, and do without the extra drone bay space. I don't really see a change to mindnumbing boredom - rather the opposite - from making targeting on a skiff take longer... in other words making drones on agressive the preferred option for defense over actively targetting.

Member of since 2003 fated.europefreeforum.com
Sintiar Loffwagea
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#455 - 2014-04-14 19:31:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie . did u forget something like mining crystals . u that about rebalance skill with reduction cycle time that make mining crystals crack faster and it's will make miner that flying Covetor and Hulk tearing with this problem . anyways it's should make crystal more life cycle .

Covetor and Hulk should have more ore cargo that will make it's popular .
Darkblad
Doomheim
#456 - 2014-04-14 19:40:49 UTC
Sintiar Loffwagea wrote:
CCP Fozzie . did u forget something like mining crystals . u that about rebalance skill with reduction cycle time that make mining crystals crack faster and it's will make miner that flying Covetor and Hulk tearing with this problem . anyways it's should make crystal more life cycle .

Covetor and Hulk should have more ore cargo that will make it's popular .
Agreed on the durability issue, but the reduction of the crystal's volume by 60% (resulting in 10m3 for T2) will enable you to load 35 crystals into those ships' cargo, 11 sets of three plus 20m3 for lossmail decoration.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#457 - 2014-04-14 22:13:50 UTC
Sintiar Loffwagea wrote:
CCP Fozzie . did u forget something like mining crystals . u that about rebalance skill with reduction cycle time that make mining crystals crack faster and it's will make miner that flying Covetor and Hulk tearing with this problem . anyways it's should make crystal more life cycle .

It'd be nice for a durability boost, but we're not actually (near as I can tell, anyways) losing any potential m3 from the change... the beams (and thus, crystals) will cycle faster, yes, but we'll be bringing more ore at a faster rate, so it's probably a wash.

Sintiar Loffwagea wrote:
Covetor and Hulk should have more ore cargo that will make it's popular .

No. We've already got two cycles worth of ore hold, that's good enough for these ships. They're supposed to depend on something else (my buffed Orca, maybe? Blink) to get the ore to the processing point.
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#458 - 2014-04-14 23:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerie Evingod
Atum wrote:
Sintiar Loffwagea wrote:
CCP Fozzie . did u forget something like mining crystals . u that about rebalance skill with reduction cycle time that make mining crystals crack faster and it's will make miner that flying Covetor and Hulk tearing with this problem . anyways it's should make crystal more life cycle .

It'd be nice for a durability boost, but we're not actually (near as I can tell, anyways) losing any potential m3 from the change... the beams (and thus, crystals) will cycle faster, yes, but we'll be bringing more ore at a faster rate, so it's probably a wash.

Sintiar Loffwagea wrote:
Covetor and Hulk should have more ore cargo that will make it's popular .

No. We've already got two cycles worth of ore hold, that's good enough for these ships. They're supposed to depend on something else (my buffed Orca, maybe? Blink) to get the ore to the processing point.


Lower yield but faster cycle time means that yield per unit of time is the same, but yield per crystal is down.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#459 - 2014-04-14 23:54:43 UTC
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Atum wrote:
Sintiar Loffwagea wrote:
CCP Fozzie . did u forget something like mining crystals . u that about rebalance skill with reduction cycle time that make mining crystals crack faster and it's will make miner that flying Covetor and Hulk tearing with this problem . anyways it's should make crystal more life cycle .

It'd be nice for a durability boost, but we're not actually (near as I can tell, anyways) losing any potential m3 from the change... the beams (and thus, crystals) will cycle faster, yes, but we'll be bringing more ore at a faster rate, so it's probably a wash.


Lower yield but faster cycle time means that yield per unit of time is the same, but yield per crystal is down.

Good point... not sure I've ever burned out a crystal except when doing marathon sessions or actually trying to. More often I would end up with a bunch of 75-90% lenses and just melt them rather than fussing with carrying them around long enough to crack. Of course, that was post-balance, when carrying around extras was extra painful. With this size reduction, I may start using them to death again. It'd be nice to know exactly how the volatility equation actually works... I've had "cheap import" glass that didn't last a day, and "can't break it with a sledgehammer" glass that seemed to last a week.
Angeleh
Silverflames
#460 - 2014-04-15 01:44:59 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

and you'll still have a 'gimped' orca. if by 'gimped' you mean "using one of your mid slots for a module it has a bonus for".


I assume that means you have tractor beams in the hi slots on your Orca?