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Dev Blog: CSM8 - Second Summit Minutes

First post First post
Author
Flamespar
WarRavens
#101 - 2014-04-06 11:05:44 UTC
With all these small steps CCP is taking, I begin to doubt that we will reach ideas outlined in CCP Seagulls vision.

My fear is that the first player built stargate will lead to what will come to be known as 'meh'-space (m-space).
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#102 - 2014-04-06 11:59:17 UTC
After having read the CSM minutes, my opinion is that this is the best Collaboration between the CSM and CCP so far Cool

The expectation management has reached a new high, and it also confirms that the casual solo-playing pve loving capsuleer will become redundant.

The whole paper reads as a confirmation that the larger issues that are know about eve since more than half a decade, will probable be addressed in the next half a decade or more.

I hope CCP and the CSM understand that so far Eve Online (not dust or valkyrie) has hold it's own in a niche market place,
HOWEVER new eden will very soon have competitors; Limit Theory, Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen that so far have seen game development
that will overtake CCP's development, even when they are obviously currently behind, because
"In the beginning, someone decided to write a spaceship game in Stackless Python."

When the current CEO of CCP will show a new iteration of Incarna at fanfest, with no tangible solutions to the problems low sec and null sec instigators want, plus another round of nerfing of hisec income, you can certainly expect another summer of Rage.

Kind regards, a Freelancer

PS: the brain in the box has to show results very very soon, else it might add fuel to that rage.

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#103 - 2014-04-06 12:14:36 UTC
Quote:
Why aren't you one grumpy person! Ship skins are the first step in customisation, and a very welcome one.


I've become one. It gets worse and worse with an age. Point is its not customisation, you just buy premade skins. Now you have 2 BS hulls with same stats only different names. I can't fly Rokh painted by me because game is build that way. I want to paint my SNI in green and brown camo, thats customisation.

Quote:
Everything should be made cheap for guys who prefer grinding imaginary space kredits?


No, but spending PLEX on irrelevant skins is good thing? It affected market already.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#104 - 2014-04-06 13:26:01 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Quote:
Why aren't you one grumpy person! Ship skins are the first step in customisation, and a very welcome one.


I've become one. It gets worse and worse with an age. Point is its not customisation, you just buy premade skins. Now you have 2 BS hulls with same stats only different names. I can't fly Rokh painted by me because game is build that way. I want to paint my SNI in green and brown camo, thats customisation.

Quote:
Everything should be made cheap for guys who prefer grinding imaginary space kredits?


No, but spending PLEX on irrelevant skins is good thing? It affected market already.


So you still don't understand that this is just a pilot project?

The ship skins in the store at release are going to be a pilot program for skip skins in the future.
This will use a different functionality than if it was fully developed. The purpose of the initial rollout is to test out price points, see how skinned ships are treated by players, and learn other things.

...

Ship customization is one of the biggest things coming up soon. With a rework coming soon to
how art handles customization, it will open up options in the future of adding more custom ship
skins. The exact mechanics of how this will work are still to be determined.


Art team also discussed alliance logos on ships.

You don't have to spend plex on anything. I bought my skinned ships from the market. Also, if they are irrelevant to you this probably doesn't concern you much.


Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#105 - 2014-04-06 13:52:02 UTC
Quote:
You don't have to spend plex on anything. I bought my skinned ships from the market.


And how did you do that? You bought them by ISK, or Aurum tokens that comes from PLEX?

Quote:
With a rework coming soon to
how art handles customization, it will open up options in the future of adding more custom ship
skins.


What do they mean by that? More pre-made ship skins?

This pre-made skin is actually whole different ship model. So you buying another ship not just skin for existing one?

Quote:
Also, if they are irrelevant to you this probably doesn't concern you much.


They are irrelevant thus they should not be bought by PLEX thats affect market as whole.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#106 - 2014-04-06 14:01:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Low-sec mentioned twice, and not once to admit it's **** space. Good to see not even the CSM gives a ****!


Yeah well lo-sec decided to sulk out the CSM8 election, so you got the representation you deserved.


So basically, if a certain group like low sec, or high sec, can't manage to vote any of their lobbyists onto the CSM, then they deserve to get screwed over by whomever is on the CSM, because the CSM members have no moral compunction to actually represent fair gameplay across the entire subscription base, and CCP is quite all right with this.

Good to know.

That explains this:

"Ytterbium opened the session by going over general changes CCP intends to make in the
summer. These include refining skill changes so you need less of the specialized refining skills "....

which was precisely the opposite of what we got, once the null sec cartels / CSM (same thing really) got done with it.
Those that think the CSM, and by extension, the cartels, don't dictate game design, should just read that excerpt.
mkint
#107 - 2014-04-06 21:18:39 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Quote:
You don't have to spend plex on anything. I bought my skinned ships from the market.


And how did you do that? You bought them by ISK, or Aurum tokens that comes from PLEX?

Quote:
With a rework coming soon to
how art handles customization, it will open up options in the future of adding more custom ship
skins.


What do they mean by that? More pre-made ship skins?

This pre-made skin is actually whole different ship model. So you buying another ship not just skin for existing one?

Quote:
Also, if they are irrelevant to you this probably doesn't concern you much.


They are irrelevant thus they should not be bought by PLEX thats affect market as whole.

Go read the thread about ship skins. I think there was a devblog about it as well. Then at least when you whine, you won't also sound like everyone's most senile relative. Or at the very least, actually READ the part of the CSM minutes you're whining about, because the exact stuff you are whining about was covered in the minutes.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2014-04-07 00:38:28 UTC
Why does it take 3 months to post minutes?

Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2014-04-07 05:15:30 UTC
Please post the Veteran discussion....
Bear
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#110 - 2014-04-07 06:00:45 UTC
Quote:
Go read the thread about ship skins. I think there was a devblog about it as well. Then at least when you whine, you won't also sound like everyone's most senile relative. Or at the very least, actually READ the part of the CSM minutes you're whining about, because the exact stuff you are whining about was covered in the minutes.


My mistake, i've completly misread whole painting idea from previous devblog. OMG i've become forum troll...

Any chance to see:

Quote:
A concept of the stargate with increased traffic was shown, and the CSM notably “ooooo’d”. An
example of a high market activity system, with decals, and an enhanced station interior were all
also positively received.


even if its just concept we may ooooo'd too.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2014-04-07 12:54:56 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


So basically, if a certain group like low sec, or high sec, can't manage to vote any of their lobbyists onto the CSM, then they deserve to get screwed over by whomever is on the CSM, because the CSM members have no moral compunction to actually represent fair gameplay across the entire subscription base, and CCP is quite all right with this.


If CCP isn't all right with this, they should be. In what twisted world should people have a "moral compunction" to represent your interests when YOU (high sec in the form of voting, and you personally in the form of running for the CSM) can't even be bothered enough to do so?

Although it's not like High Sec needs any representation, look at all the tings you get without it : "pirate ships' available in a high sec LP store, safeties, exhumer buffs, crime watch buffing and CCP's light speed nerfbatting of anything that even halfway looks like interesting or emergent gameplay lol (being able to tank faction police was the best part of faction warfare, and it didn't take 2 days for ccp to nerf it after we did it to the Caldari Mililtia).
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
The Birdhouse
#112 - 2014-04-08 16:34:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


So basically, if a certain group like low sec, or high sec, can't manage to vote any of their lobbyists onto the CSM, then they deserve to get screwed over by whomever is on the CSM, because the CSM members have no moral compunction to actually represent fair gameplay across the entire subscription base, and CCP is quite all right with this.


If CCP isn't all right with this, they should be. In what twisted world should people have a "moral compunction" to represent your interests when YOU (high sec in the form of voting, and you personally in the form of running for the CSM) can't even be bothered enough to do so?

Although it's not like High Sec needs any representation, look at all the tings you get without it : "pirate ships' available in a high sec LP store, safeties, exhumer buffs, crime watch buffing and CCP's light speed nerfbatting of anything that even halfway looks like interesting or emergent gameplay lol (being able to tank faction police was the best part of faction warfare, and it didn't take 2 days for ccp to nerf it after we did it to the Caldari Mililtia).


So according to you, niche groups deserve no representation because they cannot muster the votes required for a CSM seat?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2014-04-08 17:00:50 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


So basically, if a certain group like low sec, or high sec, can't manage to vote any of their lobbyists onto the CSM, then they deserve to get screwed over by whomever is on the CSM, because the CSM members have no moral compunction to actually represent fair gameplay across the entire subscription base, and CCP is quite all right with this.


If CCP isn't all right with this, they should be. In what twisted world should people have a "moral compunction" to represent your interests when YOU (high sec in the form of voting, and you personally in the form of running for the CSM) can't even be bothered enough to do so?

Although it's not like High Sec needs any representation, look at all the tings you get without it : "pirate ships' available in a high sec LP store, safeties, exhumer buffs, crime watch buffing and CCP's light speed nerfbatting of anything that even halfway looks like interesting or emergent gameplay lol (being able to tank faction police was the best part of faction warfare, and it didn't take 2 days for ccp to nerf it after we did it to the Caldari Mililtia).


So according to you, niche groups deserve no representation because they cannot muster the votes required for a CSM seat?


Exactly. That's democracy. If that niche group wants representation they should hook up with a group that can get representation and make a deal.
SeneschaI
Ordo Arcana
#114 - 2014-04-09 19:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: SeneschaI
CCP Xhagen wrote:
SeneschaI wrote:
finally! yay!
"Session 16" wrote:
Xhagen threw out a question to the CSM regarding the differences between corporation mechanics and the social aspect of corporations.
Not as much 'differences' as 'handicaps' (mechanics that are beta programming dinosaurs) crippling the social aspects of corporations to the point where the CSM blindly agreed there's a "difference" between npc and player corps.

Really? The comparison shouldn't by all rights even be in the same ballpark as an NPC corp. Makes you wonder how much reflection bitter vets have for the blinkered view they acquire.

The fact the question elicited comments about NPC corps being comparable is proof positive people aren't looking at solutions beyond bandaids. The system is horrible. the fact that Xhagen's question provoked tepid response is horrifying to me and everyone who's been a CEO who at least tries to give power to the people (not just greedily hoard them for the directors/ceo as is the wont of the current overly complex, full of loopholes, paranoiac surrealistic nightmare mechanics)

The actual response to Xhagen's question should have been a resounded "There's a vast gulf!"

Good to know.

My line of thinking can also be described as "is the reason for forming a corp a social one or a game mechanic one?" and then the second thought is "would there be any benefit of having a social group, more than just a chat channel, without the baggage that corps are (i.e. the assets, wars, etc.)?"

TL;DR version = Why would players, who are labeled "anti-social", want to join a social group in eve that allows fratricide as a default, let alone wardecs costing a pittance (50m isk a week? really?!?! that's a score of full ventures mining basic veldspar)
Vivi Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#115 - 2014-04-10 15:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vivi Udan
Quote:
traditionally people have never had guidance from the game that you SHOULD do this (as
opposed to you CAN do this).
Session 16: New Player Experience p35


I admit I haven't looked at EVE's tutorial in years, but I remember it being linear (go here, shoot this, train this skill)

I LOVE THIS CHART because it SHOWS the player SOME of the possibilities. As far as I know, THERE IS NO CHART LIKE THIS IN GAME. And when new players start EVE THEY HAVE NO IDEA what the possibilities are.

AKA I am proposing that CCP, with the help of the CSM, create a chart in game using the same setup as ISIS (Interbus Ship Identification System) AND ALLOW PLAYERS TO CHOOSE the tutorial they want to do using that interface.

idk, it seems like a no brainer to me...Roll



I keep seeing CSM minutes that 'come to the conclusion' of head scratching when it comes to the new player experience and it's rather depressing.

The Mittani of House GoonWaffe, First of His name, King of the Goons and VFK, Master of griefing, Lord of the CFC, Warden of the West, and Protector of Deklein.

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#116 - 2014-04-11 18:11:02 UTC
Ship balancing section got added today.

nothing on T3's but a lot about the drone balance change and a nerf to bombers possibly needed..

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Vivi Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2014-04-11 23:55:59 UTC
It might just be me but the title (when you open the PDF) says January 2013 instead of 2014...

The Mittani of House GoonWaffe, First of His name, King of the Goons and VFK, Master of griefing, Lord of the CFC, Warden of the West, and Protector of Deklein.

Ziri Azura
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2014-04-12 18:49:54 UTC
CCP if you wanted to bring the rorqual back to life aswell as draw people out of highsec to lowsec, nullsec and WH-space why not simply make the rorqual a viable fleetsupport for mining operations? make it the prefered choise over the orca. That will boost the industry in the lower security regions and make people wanna go there for their industry instead of highsec also it would make the rorqual valuable again.

on befalf of the refining changes i dont mind at all that people would need to invest skilltraining into getting the best refining rates but that u NEED the implant for 100% just doesen't cut it for me.. since most people will have the specific ore refining skills at lvl 4 anyway to be able to use the Tech 2 mining crystals you could make it so that with those skills at lvl 4+implant will give you 100% refining and if they dont wanna use the implant then they have to spend 10days training that last lvl 5 in every ore they wanna refine. that sounds fair to me atleast. also why would you make it so that u dont need any skills to refine at a pos but maxed out+implant in an npc station this doesen't make any sense to me..

keep up the good work tho!
Adunh Slavy
#119 - 2014-04-13 23:52:36 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Exactly. That's democracy. If that niche group wants representation they should hook up with a group that can get representation and make a deal.


"Democracy, two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for lunch." - Franklin

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#120 - 2014-04-14 08:23:29 UTC
Quote:
PGL brought up the idea of actually starting new players in a PvP ship and throw them straight into a fight, so that people can get a chance to experience combat. Ali and Mangala then brought up a thread on Assembly hall about how you could get a new player on a battlefield where scripted NPCs are fighting each other so they can see combat.


Maybe Rookie Faction Warfare of some sort? Pre-made frigs. New players have no experience in fitting ships. PvP systems for
rookies only, LPs<1mil?

My way to hook-up with EvE was in 3 attempts:

1 - few years ago. Harsh UI and weird ship steering (i thought it would be with up, down, left, right system) also i was overwhelmed
with ships and modules amount (especially modules). Uninstall.
2 - WiS. Cool, some progress, i can see my avatar. However i can't do anything with it. Uninstall.
3- About a year ago. Just a month before Odyssey. Bored. About half year after i've stopped WoW. I had two weeks to spend.
Done all rookie missions in about week (almost uninstall...). Then start to read about what i can do in EvE. Joined E-UNI (best move
so far, there are always some ppl to help you). I've done missions from lvl1 do lvl4, mined ores, mined gas in WHs, done some anoms, explored data/relics sites and combat sites, hauled for distribution missions (rep), no-PvP so far but it's not my kind of interes (never was). I was thinking of another uninstall until i found my place in EvE universe.

I think new players are misinformed what Eve really is. Nobody will tell you what to do here. You must find it by yourself. Maybe a definition of sandbox?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville