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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Inspiration
#1801 - 2014-04-03 20:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Also, hidden agenda? My agenda is quite clear -- I want compression to be as accessible as possible so there is more compressed ore available for me and mine to import to nullsec. My goals happen to dovetail nicely with other concerns as well.


Hmm, this actually makes perfect sense... Shocked

Requiring a POS for mineral compression would only be a minor speedbump to the established miners, but I can see the argument for making it a station service instead (possibly at a cost in time or ISK).

Even today my merry little gang of miners (when we do wear that hat) use a freighter plus an Orca for our HiSec mining operations. The Orca collects ore from the mining ships, and the freighter picks the ore from the Orca. When the freighter is full, it will travel to a nearby system with a station, where one of us has perfect refine (6.67 standing). Unless the mining fleet is pretty large, then the freighter has ample time to travel several systems over and back before the Orca and the mining ship ore holds are full. Delivering the ore to a POS in a nearby system instead of a station would make nearly zero difference to us. The exception being setting up the POS and keeping it fueled.

So I'm not sure what benefit there is - to us in HiSec - of having compression available as a POS module instead of a station service. In a WH, yes, that is an entirely different matter.

Additionally, I don't buy the conspiracy theory here. Even if we assume for arguments sake that Querns sits on a huge mountain of ore somewhere in HiSec, then he would still have plenty of time before the expansion to refine it to minerals, fabricate smaller molehill worth of railguns, teleport them to NullSec and turn them back into minerals.



The way you describe a mining op is correct for systems not to far out from a base. It evolved as the best way of doing things given current mechanics. But it limits the radius you can realistically go away from the NPC station that gives you perfect refine. If you want to relocate and respond to new prices or go further out, this method hits a hard wall and logistic efforts skyrocket. The POS option gives more freedom and under the new system also can give better refine, which is practical for ores with low mineral volume once refined (Kernite, Jaspet).

Both compression and refining can be done at the same POS and it does not need to be there all of the time, only when you are doing a mining op. Setup and break down time are modest these days. After a good session far away, you can come home with a mix of compressed ores and minerals if you do it with a freighter. And it is unlikely it would need to do more then one trip!

That said, with certain restrictions in place, they orca could also be made a compression platform. Eliminating POS and freighter needs for small to medium mining fleets.

Unfortunately you are not immediately seeing trough "Querns" tricks. On the surface his arguing seems ok, but he leaves elements out that CCP cannot just ignore without thinking hard about it. If he were to mention them (as i did for him), few would support his view. I see this leaving out of essential elements deliberate as he must know there are more types of players affected in the market then just the null buyer and beginning miner that sells ore.

I am serious!

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1802 - 2014-04-03 21:00:40 UTC
Inspiration wrote:

Why i am even responding to tour continued misrepresentation is beyond even my imagination. You leave out all important details and justify that with a quote taken out of context.

Educate yourself by creating a new corporation using a new character and go straight for anchoring a POS. Anyone that ever anchored a POS can tell you it is NOT easy to get to that point and it involves quite some effort. Yet you say as if its a 30 minute training and 1.6m ISK

You must be the most naive player in EVE and we all would become more intelligent if they just gave you a forum ban...instantly!


The context of this whole thing was an existing, built-up corporation, not a new player. You were insinuating that players that had taken the time to train Anchoring, were willing to pay the POS fuel cost, and have the standings necessary to anchor a POS in highsec were somehow vulnerable to that POS being removed from them via wardec. This is patently false, as long as you retain a standings guy who can create new corporations.

Quote:

Querns wrote:
They added a compression facility with high access requirements (standings, corporation, pos fuel, anchoring) and took away low-effort reprocessing. Yes, I call it a stick.


Oh, now it is suddenly an effort to get into compression. A minute ago it was..essentially instant and virtually cost-less. New players never had anything resembling compression. Then you bring up reprocessing nerf...reprocessing of what? The 5 modules they get from killing a belt rat? What does that have to do with POS based ORE compresson bing a lure or a stick?

Exactly nothing!

Uh, my whole point, the entire time, was that compression, as proposed in the changes in the OP, was too much effort for how important it is.

Right now, as TQ stands, refining your minerals acts as a reduction in volume over the raw ore. Doing this requires you to take a rank 1 and rank 3 skill to 5.

After the proposed changes take effect, refining your minerals will take three skills to 5 (reprocessing, reprocessing efficiency, cybernetics,) along with every single ore skill for each ore type you wish to refine. You'll also need a one-time cost of an implant. The barrier for entry is going up, AND it's become a losing proposition to even do it in the first place due to facilities out of their reach being able to take the same ore and get more from it.

My proposal is that instead of forcing individualist miners to decide between increasing their workload 66-fold, accepting a tacit 17% markdown on their ores, or forcing them into Eve's disgusting, awful mission running to grind standings for a POS that they don't need for anything else, allow them to render the ore more movable. That's all.

As an aside, I guess I don't get why you're so apoplectic about this point. What do you have to LOSE from compression being universally available? It can't be that you had some designs on being a PROFESSIONAL COMPRESSOR; I've already illustrated how that "industry" will be strangled by macro haulers. I'm at a loss.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1803 - 2014-04-03 21:01:36 UTC
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:

If someone is daft enough to dec us due to the POS, then we will use the 24 hour ramp up to build a Goonswarm Federation approved D!ckstar(TM): Large Caldari POS, 13(?) appropriate hardeners to achieve nearly even 70% shield resists across all damage types, plus even number of racial ECM modules, as many as will fit (4x4 = 16, I believe).

Hey, somebody knows their history. Nicely done.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1804 - 2014-04-03 21:07:14 UTC
Inspiration wrote:

You are not reading, just a mere few posts ago i demonstrated using current game mechanics it is not safe. It can be taken out, you cannot simply retract it and get away with it if the enemy party is prepared for that. Disputing that is just a hollow claim, repeating lies does not make it truth.

i addressed that

the idea anyone, ever, would reinforce a small compression pos and that having one is a risk in highsec is so stupid we can dismiss your arguments outright for the reasons i stated

i am a being of virtually pure spite and i wouldn't bother

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1805 - 2014-04-03 21:20:30 UTC
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
So I'm not sure what benefit there is - to us in HiSec - of having compression available as a POS module instead of a station service. In a WH, yes, that is an entirely different matter.


The benefit is you can roam free and independent of stations with your Orca. With appropriate standings, you can plop the POS down in any system with an open moon, and then proceed to perform all your mining tasks in system with far less risk. No need for dozens of trips from station to POS, or the long slog to the nearest 50% refinery station in a freighter.

Heck, if you don't want to compress, you can refine at the POS and get better mineral yield doing it.

The compressed ore will require much less volume. Tbh, you won't even need a freighter unless you fancy taking the risk of transporting 35B isk in Pyro, 37B isk of Plag, 14B of Scordite, or 9B of Veldspar. A Miasmos will attract a lot less attention and can transport 63k m3 of compressed ore. It's also a ****-tonne faster and can fit a pretty decent tank. All the while, your linked Orca can sit safe and sound in the POS shields giving out mining bonuses. When you're done, stick your ships back in the Orca, pull up the POS and go where you will.

Don't forget to set up a courier contract to move your compressed ore or minerals to Jita.

The catch is that in order to have all these perks, one needs to join a corp. I think that is a good way to get new players more involved in the game universe.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Inspiration
#1806 - 2014-04-03 21:31:15 UTC
Querns wrote:
The context of this whole thing was an existing, built-up corporation, not a new player. You were insinuating that players that had taken the time to train Anchoring, were willing to pay the POS fuel cost, and have the standings necessary to anchor a POS in highsec were somehow vulnerable to that POS being removed from them via wardec. This is patently false, as long as you retain a standings guy who can create new corporations.


This was the prelude:

Querns wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Querns wrote:
You can work around all of this by making your standings alt be the first one to join the new corporation. When the old pos is being removed, the standings alt hangs out on grid in a blockade runner and instantly anchors a new pos for the new corp. With no more 24 hour timer for roles WRT quitting a corp, this is all incredibly trivial to do.


And they can suicide your ass and you cannot go back to said corp for another 7 days. You will be caught up unless you have an unlimited supply of corporations with proper standings ready.

Your counter argument is a fairy tale at best, an excuse to get whatever YOU want!


Ah, yes, the vaunted barrier to entry for creating new corporations. Let us list the requirements:

* Corporation Management to 1
* 1,599,800 ISK

Truly, a backbreaking labor. Hercules wept.


Why list the skill then, if the standing alt has to move from an existing corp?

This is what EVE says about the player that just created a new corporation, with respect to the faction standings of a corporation :

Quote:
NPC standings towards a player corporation are calculated from the average of all members' individual standings. Only members that are in the player corporation for more than seven days straight count toward the standing average.


This certainly reads like leaving corporation, then creating a new one with the same character will not instantly give access to the required standing to anchor a POS in any safe system. Any deviation from this is almost certainly unintended and thus a bug.

I am serious!

Vhelnik Cojoin
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#1807 - 2014-04-03 21:39:18 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
The benefit is you can roam free and independent of stations with your Orca. With appropriate standings, you can plop the POS down in any system with an open moon, and then proceed to perform all your mining tasks in system with far less risk. No need for dozens of trips from station to POS, or the long slog to the nearest 50% refinery station in a freighter.


Then how about having both, possibly with a penalty to station compression? New and solo players can use the stations and thus increasing the potential compressed ore supply for Querns & Co. as much as possible, while organized groups have a choice and there is still an economic incentive to join a player corp.

I didn't so far consider what should happen to the compressed ore, once it is at the POS. The reason I mentioned a freighter to haul ore *to* the POS is that a freighter is what we currently use. Anything smaller is, well, just too small and tedious to use for the job.

Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EvE-oconomy and o-kay for you.
Inspiration
#1808 - 2014-04-03 21:40:20 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

You are not reading, just a mere few posts ago i demonstrated using current game mechanics it is not safe. It can be taken out, you cannot simply retract it and get away with it if the enemy party is prepared for that. Disputing that is just a hollow claim, repeating lies does not make it truth.

i addressed that

the idea anyone, ever, would reinforce a small compression pos and that having one is a risk in highsec is so stupid we can dismiss your arguments outright for the reasons i stated

i am a being of virtually pure spite and i wouldn't bother


The reason to bring up POS / corporation was to have the user of compression facilities have exposure to PvP. Only corporation members can use the facility and being in a war, pretty much excludes use...if they reinforce it or not! For all we know, they are just interested in the moon, then it becomes a conflict driver.

There is more to EVE then thousand man alliances vs thousand man alliance. You seem to have forgotten this and are not doing anyone a favor with it.

I am serious!

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1809 - 2014-04-03 21:47:32 UTC
Inspiration wrote:

The reason to bring up POS / corporation was to have the user of compression facilities have exposure to PvP. Only corporation members can use the facility and being in a war, pretty much excludes use...if they reinforce it or not! For all we know, they are just interested in the moon, then it becomes a conflict driver.

There is more to EVE then thousand man alliances vs thousand man alliance. You seem to have forgotten this and are not doing anyone a favor with it.

the user of the compression facilities has absolutely no exposure to pvp whatsoever

they use the pos while they have no wardecs, then if wardecced they empty it out and dock up and the attacker gets the joy of shooting a pos twice for absolutely no gain: something they would do only if the owner had pissed them off so much they were willing to waste an inordinate amount of time

that is if the pos owner is too lazy to scoop the pos before the dec goes live

basically there is no exposure to pvp whatsoever, no pvp content is created, and you continue to be unable to grasp how the game works

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Inspiration
#1810 - 2014-04-03 21:50:58 UTC
Querns wrote:
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:

If someone is daft enough to dec us due to the POS, then we will use the 24 hour ramp up to build a Goonswarm Federation approved D!ckstar(TM): Large Caldari POS, 13(?) appropriate hardeners to achieve nearly even 70% shield resists across all damage types, plus even number of racial ECM modules, as many as will fit (4x4 = 16, I believe).

Hey, somebody knows their history. Nicely done.


Unless you also care to defend it, it is just more valuable target. Counter party deploys 20 Dominix, with sentries (which do not get targeted by the pos) and go watch a movie for a couple of hours. They don't need locks to hit your POS and hit it well.

Regardless, you are missing the point that if you use the POS for mining support, then it can be taken out. You can be forced into action or loose an asset if you do not respond. It is valid PvP, regardless if it is your thing.

Not liking it and making fun of others for being part of a "smaller" group, does nothing to validate any of your points (if they are even points to begin with).

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1811 - 2014-04-03 21:53:18 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

The reason to bring up POS / corporation was to have the user of compression facilities have exposure to PvP. Only corporation members can use the facility and being in a war, pretty much excludes use...if they reinforce it or not! For all we know, they are just interested in the moon, then it becomes a conflict driver.

There is more to EVE then thousand man alliances vs thousand man alliance. You seem to have forgotten this and are not doing anyone a favor with it.

the user of the compression facilities has absolutely no exposure to pvp whatsoever

they use the pos while they have no wardecs, then if wardecced they empty it out and dock up and the attacker gets the joy of shooting a pos twice for absolutely no gain: something they would do only if the owner had pissed them off so much they were willing to waste an inordinate amount of time

that is if the pos owner is too lazy to scoop the pos before the dec goes live

basically there is no exposure to pvp whatsoever, no pvp content is created, and you continue to be unable to grasp how the game works


No PvP content, are you mad?

The mining stopped, it has been denied, this has effects.
The moon becomes available for who knows what.

Are you even playing EVE?

I am serious!

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1812 - 2014-04-03 21:55:49 UTC
EXCITING PVP CONTENT:

freighter warps from docking ring (effectively invulnerable) to inside pos (invulnerable)

dumps ore into compressor, hits compress, takes ore back, warps to docking ring (effectively invulnerable)

repeat a million times

OH NO A WARDEC

well the pos is completely empty: just unanchor the compression module and empty out the pos and put it in the station. depending on how frisky you want to be, dickstar the tower, pull it, or just leave it as a bare stick

whoever wardecced you gets nothing interesting out of this whatsoever and you have been incredibly minorly inconvinenced. you can just hop to your backup corp or just wait out the wardec.

THIS HAS BEEN EXCITING PVP CONTENT, BROUGHT TO YOU BY INSPIRATION

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1813 - 2014-04-03 21:57:54 UTC
the mining is not affected one bit, that is another one of inspiration's nutjob ideas that have no relationship to reality

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1814 - 2014-04-03 21:58:45 UTC
a moon in highsec, an incredibly common thing that anyone can get with much greater ease than bothering a mining corporation, has become available

EXCITING PVP CONTENT

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1815 - 2014-04-03 22:00:16 UTC
Inspiration wrote:

Unless you also care to defend it, it is just more valuable target. Counter party deploys 20 Dominix, with sentries (which do not get targeted by the pos) and go watch a movie for a couple of hours. They don't need locks to hit your POS and hit it well.


going afk in 4b worth of ships to shoot a pos afk for hours and hours because the target has become "more valuble" thanks to the addition of 30m in mods

BRILLIANT ECONOMIC THINKING AND EXCITING PVP CONTENT BROUGHT TO YOU BY INSPIRATION

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#1816 - 2014-04-03 22:01:57 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Unless you also care to defend it, it is just more valuable target. Counter party deploys 20 Dominix, with sentries (which do not get targeted by the pos) and go watch a movie for a couple of hours. They don't need locks to hit your POS and hit it well.


I was planning on defending it by continuously onlining the extra ECM modules I had anchored ahead of time, as the 16 originals are incapped.

Also, unless my memory is playing tricks with me, then the tower *will* target drones eventually, thus jamming them and negating the drone dps, even if it does admittedly take 2 and three quarter eternities before it does so.

Inspiration wrote:
Regardless, you are missing the point that if you use the POS for mining support, then it can be taken out. You can be forced into action or loose an asset if you do not respond. It is valid PvP, regardless if it is your thing.

Not liking it and making fun of others for being part of a "smaller" group, does nothing to validate any of your points (if they are even points to begin with).


Wait, what? Are you sure this was intended for me?

Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EvE-oconomy and o-kay for you.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1817 - 2014-04-03 22:03:47 UTC
part of the genius of a dickstar is ecm mods are hilariously high hp so if you start shooting them boy are you going to be there a long time

and if you bother to be at the dickstar you'd just online a few guns and start blasting dominixes out of the sky, or make a smartbomb run at them to kill off all the drones, warp out, then gun them all down personally (afk dominixes can't tackle)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1818 - 2014-04-03 23:53:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Harah Noud
Inspiration wrote:
Querns wrote:
The context of this whole thing was an existing, built-up corporation, not a new player. You were insinuating that players that had taken the time to train Anchoring, were willing to pay the POS fuel cost, and have the standings necessary to anchor a POS in highsec were somehow vulnerable to that POS being removed from them via wardec. This is patently false, as long as you retain a standings guy who can create new corporations.




Ah, yes, the vaunted barrier to entry for creating new corporations. Let us list the requirements:

* Corporation Management to 1
* 1,599,800 ISK

Truly, a backbreaking labor. Hercules wept.




Quote:
NPC standings towards a player corporation are calculated from the average of all members' individual standings. Only members that are in the player corporation for more than seven days straight count toward the standing average.




U guys r forgetting that u can buy a corp with high standings, put a fresh alt with no standings at its head, ( so the corp high standings remain ) and added to ur alliance.
Thus u can benefit from the POS and it's arrays with no efforts and no risk of losing standings , as ur main char are in another corp in the same alliance.

Total cost 100 mil for the high standing cop
Another 100 for the pos and a 200 for modules

400 or so and ur set , it s even cheaper than an orca
Caiyuga Onishi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1819 - 2014-04-04 03:52:56 UTC
Raquel Smith wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Quote:
Any item not part of the two categories mentioned earlier (like ships and modules) will only be affected by the Scrapmetal Processing skil


so please disconnect the scrapmetal skill from the other dependencies. New players should not have to waste SP on ore reprocessing skills to be able rise efficiency of module reprocessing.


I did this many, many years ago to get access to Scrapmetal Processing. What a kick in the teeth.


Yeah. I'd rather distribute those SP into something else then. Free up those skill points!
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1820 - 2014-04-04 04:38:16 UTC
Querns wrote:
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:

If someone is daft enough to dec us due to the POS, then we will use the 24 hour ramp up to build a Goonswarm Federation approved D!ckstar(TM): Large Caldari POS, 13(?) appropriate hardeners to achieve nearly even 70% shield resists across all damage types, plus even number of racial ECM modules, as many as will fit (4x4 = 16, I believe).

Hey, somebody knows their history. Nicely done.

And quite obviously has more isk than sense.
Your customers may not be happy with having to pay for your dickstar.
Which btw is not really all that hard to put out of action if you are serious about it.
With the isk it would cost you to build a dickstar you would be far better off just pulling the pos down for a week and wait the wardec out.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.