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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

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mkint
#521 - 2014-04-02 18:09:53 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Steph Livingston wrote:
Just to ask the question again:

Is the skill requirement for Light/Med drones changing from Scout Drone Operation to Combat Drone operation skills?

Currently you need to train Scout Drone Operation (distance) to get the T2 drones, it sounds like that's getting changed to the new skills that combat drone operation is getting split into.

Did I misunderstand?


You seem to be the only other person who is seeing this weirdness. The skills which will be the new prerequisites for the drones are not in any way related to the skill which currently unlocks them, therefore it will be entirely possible to lose access to T2 (or even T1) light/medium drones after the patch.

EDIT: I should also probably point out the confusing language in the original post -

"This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill."

"The Scout Drone Operation skill is being renamed “Drone Avionics” [...] The effects, prerequisites and unlocks provided by these skills will not be changing."

These statements are directly contradictory. What exactly is happening with these skills, Fozzie?

wtf CCP? Is it getting changed? What % of drone users have this at lvl 5? How many people are going to lose access to the simplest of the T2 drones? And it's a higher rank skill, driving up the SP requirements by 50%. You're just screwing over everyone with the summer expansion, aren't you CCP? One bad announcement after another.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#522 - 2014-04-02 18:13:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Chris Winter wrote:
Except instead of two weapon specialization skills, drones have four...and most drone users (especially sentry users) will use all types...
Actually, most weapons have six: small, medium, large, each in a short-range and a long-range specialisation. The four drone sizes, meanwhile, only get four spec skills. Sure, they're by damage type rather than by size, but it's still fewer skills (and a lot less SP).

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
EDIT: I should also probably point out the confusing language in the original post -

"This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill."

"The Scout Drone Operation skill is being renamed “Drone Avionics” [...] The effects, prerequisites and unlocks provided by these skills will not be changing."

These statements are directly contradictory. What exactly is happening with these skills, Fozzie?

By the sound of it, it's the Combat Drone Ops skill that is being split into light and medium drones, and Scout Drone Ops will shed its odd mixture of both unlocking and support skill. After all, CDO is what currently gives light and medium drones their bonus, much like how Heavy Drones and Sentry Drones give bonuses to their types. So in keeping with how it works for sentry and heavy drones, and indeed for all other weapon systems, it really should have been CDO that unlocked them all along… but some old “drones are different” design philosophy got in the way.

It makes things more consistent and logical, but it does indeed alter which skills unlock what compared to today. It would be nice to know how that switch-over will be handed in terms of keeping old abilities.
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#523 - 2014-04-02 18:15:26 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Plus, WTF is with the nerfed falloff on Curators?


It's ~flavor~. With these changes, Curators are pulse lasers firing Scorch, Gardes are blasters firing something like Null, Bouncers are arty firing Fusion, and Wardens are rail guns firing one of those mid-range ammos. Well, sorta, given that they all do a single damage type; that's the best analogy I can come up with, anyway.
Methonash Qorranto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#524 - 2014-04-02 18:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Methonash Qorranto
Chris Winter wrote:

Except instead of two weapon specialization skills, drones have four...and most drone users (especially sentry users) will use all types...

This is kind of like requiring a different specialization for each damage type of missile. Not really helping perception of drones as a skill-heavy weapon system.

Plus, WTF is with the nerfed falloff on Curators?


Someone else finally saw it!

(I pointed this out like 20 pages ago and have been largely ignored on this issue since.)
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#525 - 2014-04-02 18:15:46 UTC
mkint wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Steph Livingston wrote:
Just to ask the question again:

Is the skill requirement for Light/Med drones changing from Scout Drone Operation to Combat Drone operation skills?

Currently you need to train Scout Drone Operation (distance) to get the T2 drones, it sounds like that's getting changed to the new skills that combat drone operation is getting split into.

Did I misunderstand?


You seem to be the only other person who is seeing this weirdness. The skills which will be the new prerequisites for the drones are not in any way related to the skill which currently unlocks them, therefore it will be entirely possible to lose access to T2 (or even T1) light/medium drones after the patch.

EDIT: I should also probably point out the confusing language in the original post -

"This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill."

"The Scout Drone Operation skill is being renamed “Drone Avionics” [...] The effects, prerequisites and unlocks provided by these skills will not be changing."

These statements are directly contradictory. What exactly is happening with these skills, Fozzie?

wtf CCP? Is it getting changed? What % of drone users have this at lvl 5? How many people are going to lose access to the simplest of the T2 drones? And it's a higher rank skill, driving up the SP requirements by 50%. You're just screwing over everyone with the summer expansion, aren't you CCP? One bad announcement after another.


Either this post was awfully written or Fozzie doesn't actually understand which skill it is that currently unlocks the T2 drones...
stoicfaux
#526 - 2014-04-02 18:22:13 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
mkint wrote:

wtf CCP? Is it getting changed? What % of drone users have this at lvl 5? How many people are going to lose access to the simplest of the T2 drones? And it's a higher rank skill, driving up the SP requirements by 50%. You're just screwing over everyone with the summer expansion, aren't you CCP? One bad announcement after another.

It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#527 - 2014-04-02 18:27:02 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
mkint wrote:

wtf CCP? Is it getting changed? What % of drone users have this at lvl 5? How many people are going to lose access to the simplest of the T2 drones? And it's a higher rank skill, driving up the SP requirements by 50%. You're just screwing over everyone with the summer expansion, aren't you CCP? One bad announcement after another.

It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance.


The racial drone skills being required for T2 sentries is an entirely different matter. Read my post a few comments up about the contradictory language in the post.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#528 - 2014-04-02 18:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One more quick update before I go home. I'll do another more comprehensive pass on the thread tomorrow.

For the racial Drone Specialization skill requirements, we're going to be reducing the requirements for all T2 drones to level 1 of the skill.

That means for example Gallente Drone Spec level 1 will unlock Hobgoblin IIs, Hammerhead IIs, Ogre IIs, and Garde IIs (assuming you have the requisite T1 drone skills at level 5). This brings the drone spec skills more in line with the rest of our T2 weapon specialization skills. Training the skill beyond level 1 will still be advisable in order to get the extra damage boost, of course.


well i certainly hope drone control range will be responded too...

20km base drone control range .... is pitiful
E-war skill = 15km + scout drone op of 25km + base of 20km = 60km ... how are you supposed to use sentries beyond 60km's exactly???????

having to use DLA's that add 24km and use 55cpu + high slot is a hefty penalty compared to using guns or missiles..
a Talos can easily do about 100km's before needing a sebo

Also its not clear without using EVE HQ or eft what your drone control range is.... please add it to attributes tab

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
mkint
#529 - 2014-04-02 18:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
stoicfaux wrote:
mkint wrote:

wtf CCP? Is it getting changed? What % of drone users have this at lvl 5? How many people are going to lose access to the simplest of the T2 drones? And it's a higher rank skill, driving up the SP requirements by 50%. You're just screwing over everyone with the summer expansion, aren't you CCP? One bad announcement after another.

It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance.

Come again? Are you saying it makes sense that it takes 50% extra SP (combat drone operation is a rank 2 skill, scout drone operation is a rank 1 skill) for just one drone size and you get even LESS out of training it? It currently takes 2 ranks of level 5 skills to unlock T2 lights and mediums. It will now take 5 ranks of level 5 skills. For even LESS benefit. And that somehow makes sense to you?

edit: This won't affect me personally... I've got my combat drone skill trained to 5, ever since it was a required skill to unlock T2 DDAs, but how many people are going to lose access to their drones? And what skill are DDA's going to rely on, since there's no "drone upgrades" skill like there is with weapons? Or is everyone going to be forced to train for small drones anyway if they want to be able to field the mods needed to field other drones properly, making the whole damned patch pointless?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
iskflakes
#530 - 2014-04-02 18:33:06 UTC
Destoya wrote:
Biggest issue in my opinion is that this makes the Nyx even worse in comparison to its peers than it is currently. Aeon has the same tank with 3x DDA as a Nyx with a single DDA, which leaves you with the somewhat questionable advantage of being able to shield rep your bombers at range (compared to the far more useful cap range bonus). Hel is still bad compared to wyvern, but I guess that's to be expected.


This is so true. The Nyx now has no unique quality when compared to the aeon. The aeon's extra low slot, far superior tank and better hull bonuses just make it so much more appealing than the Nyx (now that it can match the Nyx damage in the situations where damage is valuable.)

The changes to fighter bomber EHP are needed, because the previous situation was utterly ridiculous. However, the changes to base damage are not needed. Base supercap damage is not excessive, and requiring drone damage amps to return to reasonable levels hurts supers like the Nyx a lot more than the Aeon, which can spare multiple slots and still maintain a superior tank.

To be clear, neither of these supers will be better off after the changes, but the aeon will be substantially better relative to the nyx.

-
Hunter Arngrahm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#531 - 2014-04-02 18:46:22 UTC
Methonash Qorranto wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:

Except instead of two weapon specialization skills, drones have four...and most drone users (especially sentry users) will use all types...

This is kind of like requiring a different specialization for each damage type of missile. Not really helping perception of drones as a skill-heavy weapon system.

Plus, WTF is with the nerfed falloff on Curators?


Someone else finally saw it!

(I pointed this out like 20 pages ago and have been largely ignored on this issue since.)


This really does need fixed since they made Omnidirectional Tracking Links mostly give falloff. It means Curators will barely receive a bonus from them, and will be worse off as a result. Can a dev address this, please?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#532 - 2014-04-02 18:58:53 UTC
mkint wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance.

Come again? Are you saying it makes sense that it takes 50% extra SP (combat drone operation is a rank 2 skill, scout drone operation is a rank 1 skill) for just one drone size and you get even LESS out of training it? It currently takes 2 ranks of level 5 skills to unlock T2 lights and mediums. It will now take 5 ranks of level 5 skills. For even LESS benefit. And that somehow makes sense to you?

I can't remember seeing the ranks for the new skills, so we don't know the specifics yet, but yes, it's entirely possible that you'll need more ranks to unlock all the drones.

Right now (for small + medium) we have:

Drones V (rank 1) + Scout Drone Ops V (rank 1) + 4× Drone Spec II (rank 5) = 540k SP.

If I were to guess (assuming they want a progression through increasingly higher ranks), I'd say that we're going to see something like this after the change:
Drones V (rank 1) + Light Drones V (rank 1?) + Medium Drones V (rank 2?) + 4× Drone Spec I (rank 5) = 1,029k SP.

…but I'm being generous there and only assuming Rank 2 for medium drones, when it would be more natural for it to have Rank 3, which would mean it takes another 256k SP to unlock both sizes.
stoicfaux
#533 - 2014-04-02 19:02:20 UTC
mkint wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
mkint wrote:

wtf CCP? Is it getting changed? What % of drone users have this at lvl 5? How many people are going to lose access to the simplest of the T2 drones? And it's a higher rank skill, driving up the SP requirements by 50%. You're just screwing over everyone with the summer expansion, aren't you CCP? One bad announcement after another.

It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance.

Come again? Are you saying it makes sense that it takes 50% extra SP (combat drone operation is a rank 2 skill, scout drone operation is a rank 1 skill) for just one drone size and you get even LESS out of training it? It currently takes 2 ranks of level 5 skills to unlock T2 lights and mediums. It will now take 5 ranks of level 5 skills. For even LESS benefit. And that somehow makes sense to you?


I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm just saying that the dev blog made a big deal of intentionally closing the performance and skill gap between T1/Faction and T2 drones, and if Fozzie isn't worried about people losing access to their sentries over the racial drone skills, well then I, for one, get the fuzzy impression that CCP won't be handing out free skills.

The only possible reason for this being a bad idea is the people who didn't get the memo, e.g. the mission runner who is scram'd by NPCs only to realize that he can no longer use his T2 drones, or all the folks who rely on T2 drones in PvP.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#534 - 2014-04-02 19:04:47 UTC
Even aside from the weirdness about splitting a skill which doesn't currently unlock the drones, they really need to clarify what each skill will give after the patch, because of the contradictory language within the blog post.
tsiliadora
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#535 - 2014-04-02 19:05:04 UTC
but is funny to see how behind the title "Giving drones an assist" we see a great sc's rebalance
(yea i mean how nyx is gonna be a piece of ****, and wyvern the most powerfull).
And the lol thing is that they say they will hear our opinion,as always did.

lets see how it will ends..................
Nira Meru
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#536 - 2014-04-02 19:14:33 UTC


Why is it that you are making Faction Sentries in every way better than Tech 2 drones, they all have better tracking and more hp/shields/armor.

Methonash Qorranto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#537 - 2014-04-02 19:16:35 UTC
tsiliadora wrote:

lets see how it will ends..................


I'm totally checked-out of this thread and am 99.99% confident that whatever I write about, and whatever I may hope and/or lobby for will never come to pass.

And that's okay--because I'm a Curator fan, I've already [effectively] received anywhere from a +6 to +8 bonus damage implant, depending on my level of Amarrian drone specialization come patch day. At level 4, it's a free +6 bonus damage implant, and at level 5, it's roughly equivalent to a +8 implant.

Meanwhile, in Carrier-land, it's time for DPS-a-holics to train [or improve their skills] for fighter Thannies!~

\o/
stoicfaux
#538 - 2014-04-02 19:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
mkint wrote:

wtf CCP? Is it getting changed? What % of drone users have this at lvl 5? How many people are going to lose access to the simplest of the T2 drones? And it's a higher rank skill, driving up the SP requirements by 50%. You're just screwing over everyone with the summer expansion, aren't you CCP? One bad announcement after another.

It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance.


The racial drone skills being required for T2 sentries is an entirely different matter. Read my post a few comments up about the contradictory language in the post.

So the fix is to change
* "We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation"
to
* "We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation "Scout Drone Operation (to be renamed to Drone Avionics)" skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation"

edit: bleh. still not clear.


1. Combat Drone Operation skill is being removed.
2. Light Drone Operation (LDO) and Medium Drone Operation (MDO) are being added.
3. You will receive LDO and MDO for free with a skill level of your current Combat Drone Operation or Scout Drone Operation, whichever is higher.
4. Scout Drone Operation is being renamed to Drone Avionics.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Nira Meru
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#539 - 2014-04-02 19:26:30 UTC
Methonash Qorranto wrote:
tsiliadora wrote:

lets see how it will ends..................


I'm totally checked-out of this thread and am 99.99% confident that whatever I write about, and whatever I may hope and/or lobby for will never come to pass.

And that's okay--because I'm a Curator fan, I've already [effectively] received anywhere from a +6 to +8 bonus damage implant, depending on my level of Amarrian drone specialization come patch day. At level 4, it's a free +6 bonus damage implant, and at level 5, it's roughly equivalent to a +8 implant.

Meanwhile, in Carrier-land, it's time for DPS-a-holics to train [or improve their skills] for fighter Thannies!~

\o/


except you also lost 50% damage from sentry drone interfacing althought i think the base damage change puts curators ahead of previous damage.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#540 - 2014-04-02 19:26:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We understand the frustrations expressed by some about how these changes do not address the Drone UI, AI and/or Ewar Drones. These are important issues, but they require a different set of resources to solve and we are not going to hold back meaningful positive changes to wait until we can fix everything at once.

Right click delete on EW drones sounds easy to me. P

Seriously; what is the problem with just removing them?