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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

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Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2014-04-01 19:16:13 UTC
and i thought my skillplans were finally coming to an end and i could start training alts :O
The Warfish
Goats Unlimited
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#122 - 2014-04-01 19:16:15 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
The Warfish wrote:
Apparently it is.

Please tell us when "a mix of the two" is superior to the best DPS (Gall) or the best Tracking/Speed (Minn). Thats the question.

Nobody who plays EVE wants "mostly", they want best-at-role. And since Drones do two things and two things only, kill/chase off tacklers (where all that matters is best speed/tracking) and lay down DPS (where Amarr can never catch up to Gall), having "mostly" is a decision that is effectively self-nerfing.

So.....tell us my friend, what situations you want to self-nerf yourself in by having "mostly" instead of "best".


Rather than comparing pure numbers, also consider you're switching damage types. Yes, the Amarr drones are slower than Minmatar, but they'll do a much better job at hitting low EM resist.


Except it won't.

Even if EM damage is the weaker resist, in EVE almost everything PvE and PvP alike that is weak to EM is also weak to Therm. The difference in resist profile is still not enough of a factor to lead a pilot to choose Amarr Drones (and skill up Amarr Spec if they already have Gall spec. which every Droneship Pilot should) over Gallente.

Lets look at Sansha Rats as an example. No one (literally no one) used Amarr Rats against this "EM weak" Rat type. Why? Because Thermal Gall. Drones still do more damage than Amarr against an Amarr-specific damage weak Rat type.

PvP will be even worse, as people will continue to go best-in-class damage or best-in-class speed for Drones. No one is going to say "I'll drone for EM resists in PvP" when ultra-fast Minny Drones will be superior even with resist profiles vs. fast frigs and Gall Drones will still be superior vs. tanky targets even with resist profiles considered.

A poster above is quite right, two stats can't balance four races. Best Damage and Best Speed/Tracking will still be best to use in every scenario.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#123 - 2014-04-01 19:19:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Rather than comparing pure numbers, also consider you're switching damage types. Yes, the Amarr drones are slower than Minmatar, but they'll do a much better job at hitting low EM resist.

If you're making a damage type choice, it's most likely because you're going after rats. If you're going after rats, you don't need the speed, and Gallente drones will do more damage (since all EM-weak rats are also Th-weak).

If you're going after a fast target, which is the better choice: a drone that has a higher chance of catching the target but which might do slightly less damage, or a drone which might not catch the target, but does more damage on the off chance that it does.

PinkKnife wrote:
There is no "best-at" role anymore, so pick your flavor and go with it.
Yes there is, and they're the exact same roles as now since the design pattern is exactly the same as before. If you expect fast targets, you go Minmatar; if you expect tough targets, you go Gallente. Betting that a target should happen to be slightly slower and EM-weak, or just a tiny bit too fast and kinetic-weak is such a long shot that it's just not worth risking.

Smoothing out a differentiation that isn't working because you always pick the drones that are the best at something doesn't suddenly mean you're not going to pick the drones that (still) are the best. It's the same differentiation as we currently have and which is currently not working. It's not going to work any better just because it becomes numerically prettier.


Speak for yourself, I use drones that are going to be the best overall for whatever situations I expect. Amarr or Caldari drones sound perfect for not getting caught in the tracking woes of Hobgoblins and the meager DPS of warriors.
The Warfish
Goats Unlimited
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#124 - 2014-04-01 19:19:57 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
The Warfish wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
The Warfish wrote:
I appreciate the thought CCP, but:

So, I am an RP *** and Aethetics *** who loves Amarr Drones.

Tell me....

...in what circumstances would it be worth it losing speed (vs. Minny Drones) or Damage (vs. Gallente Drones) to utilize the Amarr Drones after the fix?

Cause I'm still not seeing them as all that useful.

Drones have two jobs in EVE and two only: Kill Tackler Frigates (speed/tracking is king, use Minny Drones) and pure DPS (Damage Bonus is king, use Gallente Drones).

Why would I slow my anti-fast-**** drones down? Why would I lower my damage when damage is what counts?

/shrug, outside RP reasons, I don't see many switching to Amarr/Caldari drones tbqh, especially since most drone users and vets probably have Gall and Minn Drone spec to at least 4 if not 5, and Amarr/Caldari Spec not even trained.

A better idea would probably have been to make Gallente and Amarr equal all down the line (big tough slow DPS) and Caldari/Minny Drones equal (fast, accurate).

Then the choice comes down to damge type and purpose, with EM/Therm DPS and Kin/Explo Speed options.


For a mix of the two. It is now easier to decide on the spectrum which is more important, speed or DPS. If you want only dps, go Gallente, if you want only speed go Minmatar, if you want mostly speed go Amarr, and if you want mostly DPS go Caldari.

Not that hard.


Apparently it is.

Please tell us when "a mix of the two" is superior to the best DPS (Gall) or the best Tracking/Speed (Minn). Thats the question.

Nobody who plays EVE wants "mostly", they want best-at-role. And since Drones do two things and two things only, kill/chase off tacklers (where all that matters is best speed/tracking) and lay down DPS (where Amarr can never catch up to Gall), having "mostly" is a decision that is effectively self-nerfing.

So.....tell us my friend, what situations you want to self-nerf yourself in by having "mostly" instead of "best".


I didnt mean mix as in 2 amarr 3 gallente, I meant as a mix of dps/speed. Maybe I find Gallentte drones too slow, but still like having more DPS than minmatar drones. That's when I would go with Caldari. Not a hard decision.

There is no "best-at" role anymore, so pick your flavor and go with it.

Gallente have tracking problems on fast frigates, Minmatar are unideal for slower targets that can be hit by higher damage drones. Use one of the others as a compromise for non perfect scenarios. As I said, not that hard.


The fact you keep ignoring the issue and mumbling "not that hard" shows a clear and unquestionable lack of understanding.

yes, there is still two "best in class" Drones. Gall will outdamge Caldari in every circumstance where speed is not a factor. Minny will out hit (and hence our damage) Amarr in every circumstance where speed is a factor.

Again, and be specific please, detail a circumstance where you, as a pilot, would choose Amarr over Minny and then show us (with the maths) how the Amarr Drones will out-perform Minny in that scenario.

If you can't do that, I guess it IS "that hard", because as I and most have said, best-in-class will still be best in class.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#125 - 2014-04-01 19:20:44 UTC
And you are going to make drone control units a passive module right?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#126 - 2014-04-01 19:21:48 UTC
Probably not the best day to release this blog, at least not if you want people to take it seriously. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#127 - 2014-04-01 19:24:39 UTC
Mortvvs wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Mortvvs wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
The Thanny and the Nyx Should get the standard bonus of 10% to drone damage and hit points after these changes to keep it uniform.


I haven't seen anything about that bonus getting removed.


currently it is only 5% per level to fighters/fighter bombers


Oh right, but 10% would be a tiny bit too OP.

Considering every other super can now out dps and out tank it at the same time it seems only fair, doing damage is literally the only thing the nyx can do that other supers couldnt do better.

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#128 - 2014-04-01 19:25:39 UTC
Besides the sexy look, now there is not a single good reason to fly a Nyx over any other super carrier. :(
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
#129 - 2014-04-01 19:25:40 UTC
I like it.

One question:

You write:

Quote:
This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill


Will that also mean that those two skills are going to have different ranks? Like LDO rank 1 and MDO rank 2 for example?
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-04-01 19:26:37 UTC
the drones should have a secondary damage effect to bring out a diversity, caldari drones do their primary damage, but have the secondary effect of a possible disruption of weapon systems, (ie, they will have a percentage chance to disrupt the next volley of fire so as to cause a miss on the target. ) Amarr with do primary damage, but also a secondary effect of a small percentage of capacitor nullified) no where near the level of the dedicated ecm type, but enough to be a factor in a battle. but with a stacking penalty so if your targeted by 100 caldari drones, you wont miss more than the effect of 5 of them. this will add color and verity to drone warfare and add a new variable to drone fights. similar effects can be available to the other 2 types to round out the playing field.
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2014-04-01 19:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rainus Max
As a drone user and somebody (insane) who has maxed out all drone skill - Hurray!

Do worry though that the Nyx is getting a back handed nerf in the damage v tank debate. I know I am applying backstory and sense (which iirc you should never do with EvE) but surely the the Gallente's only native weapon (Rails being Caldari) should bring them out on top in terms of damage output for their carrier/supercarrier? (still prefer mothership though)
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#132 - 2014-04-01 19:29:03 UTC
As it has been stated - drones have issues with super fast targets. MWD, try to get into orbit, MWD again. I don't see anything that addresses that here.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#133 - 2014-04-01 19:29:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Dev Blog was really quite hazy about the some of the important bit of the Sentry Drone alterations.


With the base increase of T1 Sentries, and the 2% increase per level, will a char with say Racial Drone spec IV and all the other drone skills maxed deal equal or less damage with a set of T2 Sentries (Say Gardes) than they did previously with the same skills?[


You spelled the damage changes out quite clearly for everything else, but left the effects on T2 sentries quite hazy.


This was mainly because the spelling out the details a bit more long winded for sentries since they're not changing by uniform percentages. I decided to pass along the basics and let the spreadsheet at the end provide the specifics.

In practice, damage with T2 Gardes and Bouncers will be going down a bit (but with Bouncers gaining a lot of tracking and Gardes gaining a fair amount of falloff) while damage with T2 Curators and Wardens goes up a bit.


So let me get this straight.
You trash the AI a couple years ago, because you hated anyone who used heavies in missions.
Then you trashed the Omnidirectional, because we "adapted:" (read as do less effective damage than heavies), and started using Sentries.

But , no, that is not enough. Every single person who kills themselves to get the skills to get T2 sentries just got screwed even further since Garde II's just took another huge hit in damage. Because Garde's were used on 3 of the 4 NPC's.

Man, you just can't help yourself, wrecking the PvE game, can you?
My Stratios in low sec Amarr space, or low sec Gallente space just got creamed even more after the Omni wipeout.

BTW , I retired my Proteus mission runner when you wiped out Omni's.
Now, I can retire any of the other PvE drone boats I have.
Aerozzz
Afragoi Ltd
#134 - 2014-04-01 19:29:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerozzz
Regarding the Fighters Fighter bomber changes:

1) The Fighter Bombers are getting their damage output nerfed. Two FB currently do 6k damage, 1 FB after the changes will do 1400 (base damage) * 1.5 (drone interfacing V) * 2 (100% supercarrier bonus) = 4200, 70% down from 6k. Are my calculations correct (assuming no DDAs are fit)?

2) If I read correclty, Drone Navigation, Durability, Sharpshooting now affect Fighters and FBs. Does that mean that Fighters / FBs get a buff to their speed, HP (except the one related to the volume size for the FBs) and tracking (for Fighters)?

Thanks!
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#135 - 2014-04-01 19:30:34 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
the drones should have a secondary damage effect to bring out a diversity, caldari drones do their primary damage, but have the secondary effect of a possible disruption of weapon systems, (ie, they will have a percentage chance to disrupt the next volley of fire so as to cause a miss on the target. ) Amarr with do primary damage, but also a secondary effect of a small percentage of capacitor nullified) no where near the level of the dedicated ecm type, but enough to be a factor in a battle. but with a stacking penalty so if your targeted by 100 caldari drones, you wont miss more than the effect of 5 of them. this will add color and verity to drone warfare and add a new variable to drone fights. similar effects can be available to the other 2 types to round out the playing field.

No.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#136 - 2014-04-01 19:31:54 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Speak for yourself, I use drones that are going to be the best overall for whatever situations I expect. Amarr or Caldari drones sound perfect for not getting caught in the tracking woes of Hobgoblins and the meager DPS of warriors.

But that's just it: for the situations you can expect, EM is still worthless and Kn will be no different than it currently is… and as the stats show, it is pretty much worthless as well.

You go for best in class. “Kind of ok at this, and meh at the other” will never be best in class.

The only way to solve that is to increase the number of classes or to remove them altogether and just make it the role of the die if you picked the right type for what you meet.
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2014-04-01 19:31:54 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
boohoo


Must you consistently whine about everything?
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#138 - 2014-04-01 19:33:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
Speak for yourself, I use drones that are going to be the best overall for whatever situations I expect. Amarr or Caldari drones sound perfect for not getting caught in the tracking woes of Hobgoblins and the meager DPS of warriors.

But that's just it: for the situations you can expect, EM is still worthless and Kn will be no different than it currently is… and as the stats show, it is pretty much worthless as well.

You go for best in class. “Kind of ok at this, and meh at the other” will never be best in class.

The only way to solve that is to increase the number of classes or to remove them altogether and just make it the role of the die if you picked the right type for what you meet.



I've always been surprised that drones don't have different optimal ranges.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#139 - 2014-04-01 19:33:57 UTC
If people don't use Caldari combat drones when they're 2nd best in damage and 2nd best in speed and tracking, why would they start using them when they become 2nd best damage 2nd WORST speed/tracking? What?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#140 - 2014-04-01 19:34:18 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
boohoo


Must you consistently whine about everything?


It is a little strange that in every single game adjustment thread, he just happens to be performing the PvE activity that gets hit the most by the changes.

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