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Deadspace Mining/Industry pockets
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#21 - 2014-03-24 15:16:34 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
This doesn't answer the problem of creating large amounts (in volume or value) of resource that oinly large corps/alliances will be able to farm.. I thought people already disliked ares of null for this reason? These deadspace areas would just be mini versions.to create more combat you need to draw people in to combat oriented regions and reward them for coming in (if they succeed at whatever task they are trying to accomplish).

These areas will be locked down to anyone other than larger corps/alliances.

My baseline for an idea such as this is whether everybody has access (albeit at more risk). With this idea I can't see that being the case.



I am not sure I understand your base for concern. The effect of defensive fleets locking down areas of space already exists, as you point out. On that level all this does is provide a focal point that isnt a gate or station to fight in. The larger the group, the less important any given individual source of income becomes, and the less locked down a given site will be in favor of defending the open space it is found in.

In that scenario, the only thing keeping you out of the valuable area of the pocket is the fleet left to defend it. Kill it, the gate unlocks and you are free to move on and inflict damage, steal resources or even set up your own defense of the pocket for the incoming response as you choose. For a large alliance this would actually be harder to defend than open space as they would have to bridge in system and still get their fleet to and through the gate you already crashed, unless it was important enough for them to leave more than a token defense inside as a defensive fleet in the first place.... Which means that they are not elsewhere ready to bridge out on a moments notice and can be pinned and fought in place or delayed while action is taken elsewhere by bubbling the exit.


My point is that in any area of resource an individual in a correctly fitted ship can gather resources if they use their head...hopping WH's in a venture into null and refitting through a mobile depot for mining, cloaking up if anyone happens by for instance. With this idea anyone wishing to exploit the area must defeat the fleet defending it. There is no way to slip by and ninja gather the resources. In a sense you may as well grab an area of losec, set up your pos's and defend that with your fleet. At least then everyone has a chance to gather the resources, but with increasing risk the fewer of you there are.

Also if such complexes are in systems where bubbles (interdiction spheres I assume this is?) can be used doesn't this mean the defending fleet can cyno in reserves as needed?

My understanding of losec/null fleet and combat mechanics is limited so please feel free to correct me :)



Assuming its in null and huge alliance sized defense is available... Sure they can cyno in reserves, which you can delay with bubbles. The only thing keeping you out are the defensive forces present in the pocket. Once those forces are driven out or destroyed the fleet must re-link with the gate to lock it again, so you are free to move foward.

The resources could be ninjad in that fashion. You crash the gate and get cloaked ventures (or whatever) inside, and once the fighting is over and your combat vessels have been cleared yiu can wait for a time when no one is looking to do as you like with the cloaked ships.

If we are talking about smaller groups, the gates are only locked when defense is present. If its afk, pop it and go in. If they have logged take it for yourself, or risk going in and taking what you can while you can.

The core of the idea is that active defense works. Bigger groups will almost always win a direct confrontation and need to be out manuvered. This means that they will have to mount a constant defense of active individuals... Smaller groups become limited by manpower, bigger groups become vunerable to metagaming factors like bribery and awoxing... And the fact that scale is limited larger groups cannot bring all of their force to protect a single valuable asset without leaving something else exposed.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#22 - 2014-03-24 15:23:26 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Lock others out with what?

Active defense. A pilot in a ship guarding that space that must be dealt with.

No... You probably cannot do it all by your self. Neither are the people exploiting the pocket.

In high sec they get the 24 hour notice to break down and move out, assuming you dont suicide their defense. Again, probably not on your own... But how much defense does this theoretical indy corp have available? Its someone you are trying to hunt solo, so it cant be much. And if they fire in their own defense when it becomes clear you will come back over and over again? Now we have a fight.

Or you set up at the exit, and pop anything with a cargohold big enough to carry more than ammo.

Nope, you dont get to roll prepared defenders and organized groups of bears because you logged in and entered the system... They will be worth more, be losing more, and require more effort and risk on your part to hunt than just forming a cheap gank squad and popping a lone sleeping bear in a belt somewhere.


OK, These complexes would be analogous with combat sites I guess? The gate does not allow you to pass until the defending fleet is dead. So I have an interceptor with nanos, MWD etc etc assigned as defender and nobody can catch it...gate remains locked and the 'owning' miners are at nil risk.

The locked gate thing only works on combat anoms since anyone can go into a given room once the gate is unlocked, therefore competition remains...with this proposal an attacking fleet gets tied at the gate for however long whilst the miners eat the extra valuable ore inside. If it is high volume lower isk goods in the complex this makes it more likely to be blockaded by large corps, if low volume hi value then this means you don't need to blockade the gate for very long to reap massive rewards.

Personally I prefer the Dinsdale Phenomena idea or the comet/ring mining ideas. With those everybody gets a shot at them at all times.


So you bring your own interceptor to catch it, or something with silly range on scrams and webs to slow it down and pop it. It cant leave the grid or the gate unlocks. If all they have is one interceptor defending it wont be hard to get in.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#23 - 2014-03-24 15:23:58 UTC
so i have my belt. and i want to mine it. me and my friends get max yield covetors and hulks, put an alt in an orca booster/hauler, and an alt in a maller to guard the gate.

we are not at war and can happily can mine our belt without having to worry about gankers who would have to first waste themselves on the maller, and no other miners can reach our belt because the maller is locking them out obviously. we have the entire belt to our selves every day until we are war decced, at which point we evacuate the area for seven days, then erect it again the moment the war is over.

u dnt see any problem with this? the problem of locking all the competition and risk of day to day mining out with a single ship?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#24 - 2014-03-24 15:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Daichi Yamato wrote:
so i have my belt. and i want to mine it. me and my friends get max yield covetors and hulks, put an alt in an orca booster/hauler, and an alt in a maller to guard the gate.

we are not at war and can happily can mine our belt without having to worry about gankers who would have to first waste themselves on the maller, and no other miners can reach our belt because the maller is locking them out obviously. we have the entire belt to our selves every day until we are war decced, at which point we evacuate the area for seven days, then erect it again the moment the war is over.

u dnt see any problem with this? the problem of locking all the competition and risk of day to day mining out with a single ship?



Are you saying its impossible to suicide a Maller? They are tough, but I didnt realize they were effectively immortal.

If the inner pocket is in different space so that local does not provide warning, then the gates have to pass an orca, which means they pass other large ships too.... That Maller wont stop much. And they have an Orca sitting in a vunerable position where it cannot just warp out of. Significant risk, significant reward. If they are willing to properly defend it why should it be easy to destroy? If they are not properly defending it, then blow that crap up right after you roflstomp their token Maller at the gate.

Additionally, if the inner pocket is in different space, then I see no reason why CONCORD would defend that. The outer defended pocket is in whatever space the gate is in and follows that ruleset, but the nature of the inner pocket is up for debate, making sneaking in covert ships to exploit or disrupt those who control the gate more valued.

But to answer the question... No, I see no reason why active defense of assets should be worthless. Their safety is only as assured as the defense they mount. They risk more in being able to mount that defense, you gain more in defeating it.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#25 - 2014-03-24 15:42:15 UTC
in regards to suicide ganking, a maller is a mountainous obstacle. Like a troll guarding a gate to a £2 coin. the effort and inevitable damage u will receive for trying makes the reward meaningless.

Quote:
Additionally, if the inner pocket is in different space, then I is no reason why CONCORD would defend that. The outer defended pocket is in whatever space the gate is in and follows that ruleset, but the nature of the inner pocket is up for debate, making sneaking in covert ships to exploit or disrupt those who control the gate more valued.


so as ive been saying all along, make everything inside shootable. and shootable if it tries to come out.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
bartos100
Living Ghost
#26 - 2014-03-24 15:53:01 UTC
as i understand it it will take significant investment to get a pocket in high sec to become rather profitable

investment both in capital and in time so if you war dec the owning corp they will defend or risk losing everything they had in invested in that pocket possebly taking several weeks time to rebuild when it is destroyed or taken

do you think a corp that spend that mutch is going to just let it go to waste to avoid a few ship losses worth a lot less then the pocket ?

and if it is not worth defending it propably isn't worth having anyway

at least that is my take on it :)
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#27 - 2014-03-24 15:58:37 UTC
bartos100 wrote:

do you think a corp that spend that mutch is going to just let it go to waste to avoid a few ship losses worth a lot less then the pocket ?


naturally they will let it goto waste. POS's also take significant investment and effort to put up. they will use the 24h grace period to evacuate anything that isn't bolted down, including the ore that was ridiculously easy to acquire. just like a POS, it will be torn down and then re-erected after the dec.

and thats assuming they are decced at all. until they are they get rights to a belt no one has, and cannot be ganked.

this is the equivalent to being able to mine a belt within a POS shield. and then when u get decced, u just evacuate.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
bartos100
Living Ghost
#28 - 2014-03-24 16:23:33 UTC
a fully fitted POS costs what like 1 bil ? and you can take it appart compleatly

what if a profitable pocket in high sec costs double that and you can not take it appart unless you blow it up

and defending a POS against a large group is rather hard

with the limitations to the gates you can level the field you can force both party's to fly similar sized ships
no more pimped out BS's with massive logi support to fight

but only T1 cruisers and below making the fact that a defender can start at whatever range they prefere a big advantage over the attackers

and for the attackers they know they will get a fight and if not they won't have to sit 2 hours shooting a tower
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-03-24 16:29:01 UTC
bartos100 wrote:
a fully fitted POS costs what like 1 bil ? and you can take it appart compleatly

what if a profitable pocket in high sec costs double that and you can not take it appart unless you blow it up

and defending a POS against a large group is rather hard

with the limitations to the gates you can level the field you can force both party's to fly similar sized ships
no more pimped out BS's with massive logi support to fight

but only T1 cruisers and below making the fact that a defender can start at whatever range they prefere a big advantage over the attackers

and for the attackers they know they will get a fight and if not they won't have to sit 2 hours shooting a tower


For such a site to be worth investing 2 bil into the complex the rewards would naturally have to be high, this would lead to such sites being pinned down and locked up by large corps without exception. Getting through a defence of such a corp would be impossible pretty much. Expanding on my earlier point you would simply need a few of the fastest inty's fitted for max speed orbiting at the maximum distance on grid registered as defenders. How would you catch the fastest inty to scram it? You could only match the speed in an equally fast inty, never catch.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#30 - 2014-03-24 16:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
bartos100 wrote:
a fully fitted POS costs what like 1 bil ? and you can take it appart compleatly

what if a profitable pocket in high sec costs double that and you can not take it appart unless you blow it up


a pittance when u can spend months mining without the risk of a gank in max yield hulks. seeing as u can extract all but the site itself, why not just blow it up when u get decced. ur corp will have made much more than a the few bil needed to make it. and this is before u factor in the 'extra rewards' this site is supposed to yield. no, it would require more than a few bil to set-up and maintain, to the point we are just throwing costs at it in the hope to balance it.

and that didnt work for titans or T3's did it? no, adding a cost to it will not fix the underlying issue. and that is its just a way to get risk free mining.

bartos100 wrote:

with the limitations to the gates you can level the field you can force both party's to fly similar sized ships
no more pimped out BS's with massive logi support to fight

but only T1 cruisers and below making the fact that a defender can start at whatever range they prefere a big advantage over the attackers


and u cant defend with pimped BS's with logi support. no, instead the fight is reduced to purely who can out blob who. its neither a pro or a con for the idea, the playing field is already level when everyone can bring what they want. and constantly making mechanics that favour the defender constantly depreciates war decs. if u need the game to hold ur hand while u PvP, then u are playing the wrong game or u are playing it wrong. if u find urself out numbered and outgunned by every dec u face, stop joining corps lead by complete anti-social idiots, and join an established corp who give a **** about their members and protect u.

i know u want to think this idea will be used as intended during a dec, but it more than likely wont. instead it gives miners a risk free belt with no competition that is completely overpowered and does the complete opposite of driving conflict when the owners are not at war. instead they try to stay as far away from each other and try not to get noticed. and for it they are rewarded with lots of money, or so the idea goes.

unless ur planning of having ppl shootable in such space and have these magic sites appear on the map so anyone can find them. its still just a way to get gank free mining.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#31 - 2014-03-24 16:58:00 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
bartos100 wrote:
a fully fitted POS costs what like 1 bil ? and you can take it appart compleatly

what if a profitable pocket in high sec costs double that and you can not take it appart unless you blow it up

and defending a POS against a large group is rather hard

with the limitations to the gates you can level the field you can force both party's to fly similar sized ships
no more pimped out BS's with massive logi support to fight

but only T1 cruisers and below making the fact that a defender can start at whatever range they prefere a big advantage over the attackers

and for the attackers they know they will get a fight and if not they won't have to sit 2 hours shooting a tower


For such a site to be worth investing 2 bil into the complex the rewards would naturally have to be high, this would lead to such sites being pinned down and locked up by large corps without exception. Getting through a defence of such a corp would be impossible pretty much. Expanding on my earlier point you would simply need a few of the fastest inty's fitted for max speed orbiting at the maximum distance on grid registered as defenders. How would you catch the fastest inty to scram it? You could only match the speed in an equally fast inty, never catch.


Arazu can use a scram at significant range. If your inty is orbiting using MWD you get inside its orbit and point it to kill the MWD, then its simple to catch. If its using AB, you can catch it with a MWD. Your biggest worry there is an actively piloted Inty, which can be cornered using a few ships or snjped when it starts changing course.

Interceptors are fast, but like that Maller are not invincable.

As far as the gankers are concerned... If a single Maller is too much, then you need more effort or easier prey. These people have risked much countering your solo ganker. Bring friends to reap the greater rewards, or camp their exit. If you wardec them you can suicide them as they flee. Why should active effort and high value risk be easily ganked? They will need to suicide you off their exit or make other group effort to get away safely if you are actively hunting them. Assuming they take proper precautions with scouts and such, why should gankers be immune to such efforts? Significant Risk balances Significant Reward.

A large group is going to lock one down for a while, but becomes vunerable to other large groups and complacency. How long will a large active defence fleet stay on station unchallenged before they go afk or run off to do something else? As I pointed out earlier, the larger the group is the less a single site is worth to them, and it becomes better for them to leave a token force and focus on securing the open space... Which leaves them vunerable to sudden strikes. If such a group can manage to keep a strong defense on station and alert, why should that level of effort not be effective? This is an entirely different tactical situation from being miles inside secure space with a defensive titan fleet only a few minutes away. You cant cyno directly into this fight, nor can you simply jump out.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-03-24 17:10:19 UTC
I stand by my view that this would be too easy for larger groups to exploit. A few inty's on different orbits whilst a whole group of hulks and an orca munch the goodies would be all you need. If an inty gets locked it warps out, warps back to another inty then establishes a new unhindered warp path. Two or three working this way would keep a grid locked up.

It would still in my opinion be pretty much unavailable to lower skilled/new players or those who prefer solo play. You say they would have access when the site is undefended but when can you honestly see such a avluable resource location being undefended? Maybe for the first few minutes of it's existence.

Better players than I would no doubt come up with much more effective ways to pin such a site down.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#33 - 2014-03-24 17:15:09 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
bartos100 wrote:
a fully fitted POS costs what like 1 bil ? and you can take it appart compleatly

what if a profitable pocket in high sec costs double that and you can not take it appart unless you blow it up


a pittance when u can spend months mining without the risk of a gank in max yield hulks. seeing as u can extract all but the site itself, why not just blow it up when u get decced. ur corp will have made much more than a the few bil needed to make it. and this is before u factor in the 'extra rewards' this site is supposed to yield. no, it would require more than a few bil to set-up and maintain, to the point we are just throwing costs at it in the hope to balance it.

and that didnt work for titans or T3's did it? no, adding a cost to it will not fix the underlying issue. and that is its just a way to get risk free mining.

bartos100 wrote:

with the limitations to the gates you can level the field you can force both party's to fly similar sized ships
no more pimped out BS's with massive logi support to fight

but only T1 cruisers and below making the fact that a defender can start at whatever range they prefere a big advantage over the attackers


and u cant defend with pimped BS's with logi support. no, instead the fight is reduced to purely who can out blob who. its neither a pro or a con for the idea, the playing field is already level when everyone can bring what they want. and constantly making mechanics that favour the defender constantly depreciates war decs. if u need the game to hold ur hand while u PvP, then u are playing the wrong game or u are playing it wrong. if u find urself out numbered and outgunned by every dec u face, stop joining corps lead by complete anti-social idiots, and join an established corp who give a **** about their members and protect u.

i know u want to think this idea will be used as intended during a dec, but it more than likely wont. instead it gives miners a risk free belt with no competition that is completely overpowered and does the complete opposite of driving conflict when the owners are not at war. instead they try to stay as far away from each other and try not to get noticed. and for it they are rewarded with lots of money, or so the idea goes.

unless ur planning of having ppl shootable in such space and have these magic sites appear on the map so anyone can find them. its still just a way to get gank free mining.


I will say it again, even slower. Maybe you will understand.

It. Is. Not. About. Hunting. Miners.

It is about getting combat ships to face combat ships. You want to kill miners, htfu and fight for it, or hunt smaller fish without the resources to set one of these up and defend it.

I am not suggesting balancing it with cost. This would take time, cost and effort to develop. You dont just take it down, reform and stick it back up like a POS in open space.

The value of the site will be in its development, which is non portable. The value will be significant enough to risk defending even in a last ditch effort to evacuate, giving you opportunity to gank them on the way out.

Will they realize profit? Yes. Profit isnt a dirty word, and they deserve as much chance to succed in making it as you do in taking or stopping it.

It does not stop ganking or griefing, it exposes them to greater risk to limit it. You will have to put forth greater effort to overcome it. It might even be too much for a solo ganker to negate the coorfinated defensive efforts of several people. Thats not a bad thing. Thats reaping a benefit from cooperative group play becuse this is, you know.... An mmo.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#34 - 2014-03-24 17:20:11 UTC
i really dnt understand what risk there is in setting it up, or what risk there is in using it. there is less risk in this site than there is using a regular belt, but ur telling me they get more money. i see added rewards, but the only added risk only applies to war decs, and they get 24h notice on that. not unless ur telling me everyone inside can be attacked CONCORD free

there is no reward for the gankers. they are locked out by arbitrary mechanics, forced to kill a goliath that is as replacable as their own ships before they can attack any miners. the issue is not that the ganking needs to be profitable, but miners DO need to be unsafe in space like everyone else. if the only possible threat is going to be camping an exit path and ganking the Orca or freighter that comes out, it is insufficient risk to balance the rewards and safety this site seems to offer.

perhaps u can elaborate what risks are taken by the owners. especially with regards to hi-sec and outside of war decs. as if the only deterrent to using the site is a war dec, why dnt they just find somewhere quiet, wait till they are not at war and then farm risk free?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#35 - 2014-03-24 17:24:06 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I stand by my view that this would be too easy for larger groups to exploit. A few inty's on different orbits whilst a whole group of hulks and an orca munch the goodies would be all you need. If an inty gets locked it warps out, warps back to another inty then establishes a new unhindered warp path. Two or three working this way would keep a grid locked up.

It would still in my opinion be pretty much unavailable to lower skilled/new players or those who prefer solo play. You say they would have access when the site is undefended but when can you honestly see such a avluable resource location being undefended? Maybe for the first few minutes of it's existence.

Better players than I would no doubt come up with much more effective ways to pin such a site down.



You can only leave through the exit. Your inty would not be able to just skip out. A couple of Rohks could just sit in the center of the grid while the Inties are either caught or they lose transversal in their manuvering to avoid capture, and then snipe them. That tactic is hardly foolproof.

Its not an idea meant to be profitable for soloists on either defense or attack. At its base level it takes at least one to defend and one to exploit to be of benefit at all beyond just mining in a belt. Smaller sites could develop faster for less value, and therefore be more accessable to smaller groups.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-03-24 17:26:14 UTC
another point...the only real risk to the orca coming out is being ganked...since the group mining the site know when this will be they can just warp a fleet to the exit point to break up any camp at least enough for the orca to blow through. I really can't help but think this would be too easy for organized groups to exploit.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#37 - 2014-03-24 17:26:30 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


I will say it again, even slower. Maybe you will understand.

It. Is. Not. About. Hunting. Miners.

It is about getting combat ships to face combat ships. You want to kill miners, htfu and fight for it, or hunt smaller fish without the resources to set one of these up and defend it.

I am not suggesting balancing it with cost. This would take time, cost and effort to develop. You dont just take it down, reform and stick it back up like a POS in open space.

The value of the site will be in its development, which is non portable. The value will be significant enough to risk defending even in a last ditch effort to evacuate, giving you opportunity to gank them on the way out.

Will they realize profit? Yes. Profit isnt a dirty word, and they deserve as much chance to succed in making it as you do in taking or stopping it.

It does not stop ganking or griefing, it exposes them to greater risk to limit it. You will have to put forth greater effort to overcome it. It might even be too much for a solo ganker to negate the coorfinated defensive efforts of several people. Thats not a bad thing. Thats reaping a benefit from cooperative group play becuse this is, you know.... An mmo.


its u that is not understanding.

it doesnt matter what u think ur idea will be used for, no one cares that its meant to be used during war decs. im telling u, it will be used for risk free no-competition mining. a resource that is very much portable.

like i said, if the idea is ship contructions, research or a place to call home, then yeah we are talking about something much less portable. but u arent. ur talking about gank free mining. yes thats an issue whether u like it or not. there is nothing in ur idea that poses a risk for anyone using this site outside of a dec.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Dominic karin
Versatility Production Corporation' LLC
#38 - 2014-03-24 17:49:24 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Does it bother you that badly that you might have to actually engage in combat rather than just engaging ships that cannot mount guns?


No what bothers me is that you can gather resources with no risk. Where is the risk/reward? Or even the work/reward? Where is the competition?

Spell it out for me; where is the risk these miners are taking to get such a reward? What work are they putting into it, in detail, that affords them such safety?

Why cant I just put a maller or two on the gate to prevent other miners coming in, and suicide gankers coming in so that, if I am not war decced, I can happily mine in complete safety with max yield hulks and pull ore out with a stabbed-miasmos or freighter? And even if i am war decced, I get such an advanced warning that the new changes to interceptors is meaningless to me. You say the exit may be camped, but how? How do you find the exit? And what's stopping people from using neutral alts to haul ore out during a dec? What's stopping using neutral alts from being the guardians protecting the gate so they cannot be attacked during a dec?

Why do you think it's ok to make an area of ore for yourself that no one else can have access to? Why do you think first come first serve is ok? Why shouldn't other miners come in and start mining the rocks as well, or muscle you out in some way? That's the competition and conflict.


Begin claims about OP's agenda and assumptions about his idea that were never stated as such:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


You have this agenda to make hi-sec so safe that people don't have to watch their backs in case of gankers. To make this area of space yours without having to work for it, all you need to do is be the first one there. You keep saying the way to drive conflict is to make something worth while defending, but you're wrong. If you dec the miners that own these areas, they will dock up all the same. The defending fleets will not be formed up of guardians protecting the miners, they will be alts in big fat tanks designed to delay intruders for as long as possible so that people can safely log off or bail out.

This idea will not go down the way you think it will.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

Currently no one stays to defend much except in null because there is no point to it. One rat is just like another, one rock is just like the others... Etc. Even with a POS when someone arrives with overwhelming force you just run and hide because there is no point in delaying tactics because time buys nothing of value. Thus everyone requires hard tackle to win a fight because no one has any reason to stay, and the only sensible fight is the overwhelming ambush where defeat is never risked.

EVE PvP needs something worth dying over to give it a point.



Fine, make everyone inside a suspect, or at the very least, shooting people inside it incurs only a suspect flag. Assets are fought over whether there's a dec or not. Drop the restrictions to gates so it doesnt become yet another 'who brings the most T3's wins' meta. People who really want it can try to defend it. This way you get what you want and no one enjoys effortless 100% risk free mining.



You ask a lot of questions and throw out a lot of combative claims using improper grammar about OPs idea that he has never stated to be a part of his idea, and yet offer no original solutions to these problems. I don't think anyone is taking you seriously.

I bolded and fixed as many grammar errors I could find but I probably missed a few due to the sheer volume in your post. My prognosis would be to make better use of the shift button and the 'y' and 'o; buttons.

This has been a Grammar lesson courtesy of Dominic Karin. For further lessons please call the principal of your local elementary school regarding registration for class.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#39 - 2014-03-24 17:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


I will say it again, even slower. Maybe you will understand.

It. Is. Not. About. Hunting. Miners.

It is about getting combat ships to face combat ships. You want to kill miners, htfu and fight for it, or hunt smaller fish without the resources to set one of these up and defend it.

I am not suggesting balancing it with cost. This would take time, cost and effort to develop. You dont just take it down, reform and stick it back up like a POS in open space.

The value of the site will be in its development, which is non portable. The value will be significant enough to risk defending even in a last ditch effort to evacuate, giving you opportunity to gank them on the way out.

Will they realize profit? Yes. Profit isnt a dirty word, and they deserve as much chance to succed in making it as you do in taking or stopping it.

It does not stop ganking or griefing, it exposes them to greater risk to limit it. You will have to put forth greater effort to overcome it. It might even be too much for a solo ganker to negate the coorfinated defensive efforts of several people. Thats not a bad thing. Thats reaping a benefit from cooperative group play becuse this is, you know.... An mmo.


its u that is not understanding.

it doesnt matter what u think ur idea will be used for, no one cares that its meant to be used during war decs. im telling u, it will be used for risk free no-competition mining. a resource that is very much portable.

like i said, if the idea is ship contructions, research or a place to call home, then yeah we are talking about something much less portable. but u arent. ur talking about gank free mining. yes thats an issue whether u like it or not. there is nothing in ur idea that poses a risk for anyone using this site outside of a dec.


Except that there is more space than just high sec, this wasnt really intended to be of that much benefit in high sec anyway as that space already is secure, though there is no reason to not have it there or change its rules to make ganking easier. Even in high sec you could still gank one ran by a small group, just not by yourself unless they are as lazy about their defense as they are their mining op. If you dec them and they are too weak to defend, then you know they are moving goods in the next 24 hours. If they can defend and dont move then they were too much for you anyway.

An organized group using scouts and defense fleets to clear a path for their hauling are going to be profitable in any area they decide to operate in. This is meant to provide incintive for exactly that behavior... Give PvP combat ships an active role in PvE and a focal point for combat to take place. Your gank squad needs to stay on station to catch the goodies, your escorts want to fight them and protect the goodies. Right now there is no point on either end of that equation except for the largest of groups because they just avoid more hostile areas entirely unless the whole region is secure. More effort in hauling grants greater reward, more loss is risked in developing the site and hualing the higher value, more aggression is attracted by the greater rewards of a successful catch. Exploitable and profitable... Yes. And all the good and bad that comes with that.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-03-24 18:10:22 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Except that there is more space than just high sec, this wasnt really intended to be of that much benefit in high sec anyway as that space already is secure


So mainly limited to losec/null/WH's to be of any value? That simply places greater resource areas into the hands of the bigger controlling groups. No smaller group will be able to compete.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
Give PvP combat ships an active role in PvE and a focal point for combat to take place.


Can't you just do this now in losec/null/WH by protecting your mining fleet with a combat vessel fleet?

Mike Voidstar wrote:
Exploitable and profitable... Yes. And all the good and bad that comes with that.


More bad than good for me still. I don't mind the idea of player acceleration gates to deadspace pockets as such, these were proposed a while ago as deeeeeep space locations I think? I would say that player controlled acceleration gates would have the access tower type structures, blow them up and locks drop. Force a player to have ships nearby to defend the gate if they wish. I am against being able to secure up mining/farmable resources though. That would just be like having mini-sov area, scattering the blue doughnut holes across the other areas of space
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