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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Christopher AET
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2014-03-24 03:16:02 UTC
Keep it simples. We have the k162 open only when the first ship passes through and breaks invuln or a period of many minutes passes. That way the rollers get some small amount of time and can be well in system before their side is located. Adds a little extra element of danger without shaking things up too much.

It gives the first ship in a precious few seconds to get the edge regards dscan and getting the lay of the land but once you begin activity the k162 reveals itself. That way the defenders have to be more vigilant but it does not change the balance overly.

I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#202 - 2014-03-24 03:18:25 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:
Tyrant Scorn wrote:
I really think people need to open their eyes and consider that the way it is right is fair. When you're on the ball and you pay attention, nothing can catch you, that's how it should be. The same goes for the hunter, if you know what you're doing you will catch people who don't.

It doesn't get more fair then that. Giving any sort of delay to K162's is unfair because it gives any hunter a head start which they should not have.


But the defender already has an advantage in the sig showing up when warp is initiated. They have how long it takes me to align, warp, land, power to the wh, jump, load system and dscan to warp away.

If you want fair, then don't show the K162 until someone jumps the WH, or failing that due to a technical issue or some such, add a delay to when it's shown K162 side that's vaguely based off an average of how long all of what I listed above takes, kind of like whats being proposed by CCP Fozzie...


It doesn't take you multiple minutes to get to the wormhole unless you're in the habit of probing down your static with a capital.

I do think that a good compromise would be holding off on the K162 until someone jumped, along with the removal of the new scanning system, forcing use of actual scan probes and paying attention.
Zainegardner
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#203 - 2014-03-24 03:19:13 UTC
I haven't read everything, but I have to say delaying the information for just the residents of the WH would make it too hard to be safe.

Maybe have some type of scanner that take awhile to return, but scans only WH sigs. I know it's a bit taxing on the development of such a feature, but it would both delay the WH sigs from appearing as well as allowing proactive residents have some way to detection.

How these "special" scanners work, how they're fit, and things of that nature will still need to be determined.

I can't think of a negative of such scanners, maybe having the scanning ship be unable to move. Or not be able to fire weapons during the scan and shortly after using the device/probes/whatever is used to scann for WH sigs.

I currently live in a C4 with my corp and I know we make sure to be as safe as we can before we run sigs. While it is super easy to just watch the overlay for a new sig, I also agree that it makes it almost impossible to be ganked, even with the current "delay"(I believe that's what Odyssey introduced.)

I honestly don't think a simple delay with delay-reduction timers is a proper fix when dealing with information retrieval of two differing parties.

Feel free to bash. I'm not a professional game designer, just throwing an alternate idea someone may have suggested.
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#204 - 2014-03-24 03:21:58 UTC
So, big boost to chain-rolling, which is fine. Makes site-running riskier. Combat probes and Dscan are now your only early warning, which is also basically fine, the primary difference from pre-odyssey is that you have to use combat probes instead of cores and have to manage ignoring friendlies as they log on and such...which strikes me as annoying but does require actual vigilance. For the extra trouble you might as well take it off the scan overlay but leave people who have the good sense to keep sigwatch with probes their tools.

The thing is that it ONLY really benefits people that chainroll for PvP. Like, that's a subset. A small subset. There's no way around that fact. It also only matters when you roll into people who are running sites or are otherwise outside of their POS shields, and again, no way around it. Either you end up making the delay so absurdly long that someone can form up a fleet or your prey can start doing stuff, which seems dumb, or it's short enough that you can only take advantage of it if you have your fleet on tap, which really benefits maybe two dozen organizations, tops?

I'm in one of those organizations so that doesn't really strike me as an issue (and we've had a lot of fun when people have dropped on us while we're running sites...), but it seems like a better change would be one that enhanced PvP opportunities more broadly and in a larger set of scenarios. What that change would be I don't know offhand, but i'm not a game designer.

Also has zippo impact on K-space unless you make it so we don't appear in local for a while either. If that gets packaged in, I'm totally on board.
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#205 - 2014-03-24 03:26:21 UTC
I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.

The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.

The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either.
Geiri Tyr
The Suicide Express
#206 - 2014-03-24 03:27:36 UTC
So you want the first warning that someone has rolled into you to be a dread, carrier, and 20+ man T3 fleet on d scan? How about no.
John Dean
State War Academy
Caldari State
#207 - 2014-03-24 03:32:32 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
I'm sure this came about from 'leet' pvpers whining about not having enough targets that won't/can't fight back.

W-space has no local. This is it's inherent danger. Don't punish players for being efficient at game mechanics such as scanning down signatures quickly and keeping d-scan up. Stop rewarding whiny pvpers who only have the balls to attack soft targets with easier and easier mechanics.

If a w-space corp is lazy then they will be punished appropriately by losing many many assets.

If you want to fight go to low or nullsec you pussies. Or just live with the perfectly fine scanning mechanics as is. You will find all the pvp you want... Problem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve.




^ This
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#208 - 2014-03-24 03:32:47 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:
I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.

The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.

The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either.


Again, I will repeat it for the folks who have been living under a rock for the past few years. EvE is not meant to be safe, W-Space even more so.
Pseudo Ucksth
Camellia Void Cartographics
#209 - 2014-03-24 03:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Pseudo Ucksth
Marlona Sky wrote:

What do you mean even more people moving out of wormholes? I was unaware of some mass exodus out of one of the most profitable parts of the game.

And what do you mean by wormhole coalitions? How does this change even remotely promote coalitions? How would a coalition member not already in the same wormhole system respond to aid someone under attack in that system? Ugh


You have not been paying much attention, then. C6s are a ghost town now. Very few people live in them anymore when previously they were sort of regarded as the hard mode of wspace.

By wormhole coalitions I mean imagine a scenario where you're going to see more previously unalinged corps joining alliances, and alliances start to absorb smaller alliances. Staging wormholes will develop, moonlocked with deathstars, and day tripping will become the norm for constant income while others use alts with throwaway expo holes that they run until they get ganked or run the sites dry and extract the capitals to kspace for the next expo, leaving the towers behind.

It will become like nullsec without stargates. These huge wspace entities will rage roll with impunity until they come upon some unlucky small corp that doesn't want to play with the big boys and get ganked, turned into renters, or evicted, because that's simply the way of things.

This sort of thing has been happening to a small extent as wormholes have been ~iterated~ on over the years, but a change like this could accelerate it out of control to the point where it may never be able to be undone. See: lowsec incursion culture, which rose organically and had only just started to flourish when ccp ~iterated~ it with the intention of making HS less profitable and "increasing risk" in LS/NS incursions but ended up simply crushing all the fun that was there by making it not worth the huge logistics involved to run them.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#210 - 2014-03-24 03:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Wander Prian
I agree on delaying the K162 from showing on the overlay, but I don't like the idea of it being delayed for probes too. The primary idea for eve is that you have to work to get your prize. It's not supposed to fall into your lap from the sky.
If you work actively towards something, you should have the benefits that come from it. If you use probes, you should see the new sig as soon as it spawns.

You should be punished for your mistakes, not get your hands tied behind your back by game mechanics.

Wormholer for life.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#211 - 2014-03-24 03:36:24 UTC
This concept puts too much power to the aggressor. And honestly we are not talking about pvp, we're talking about ganking pve targets. It's not like this is going to cause more good fights, it's just going to cause more pure one sided ganks. Sorry ganks aren't pvp (there fun when your ganking and its a small gang and you get stuff, but hardly pvp once you surpass a certain amount of people and your going up against pve targets.

We need this to promote small gang fights, not random ganks from invisible undetectable wormholes. You have to get this to function more as a combat method for smaller groups and gangs.

Yaay!!!!
MadbaM
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#212 - 2014-03-24 03:42:35 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
This concept puts too much power to the aggressor. And honestly we are not talking about pvp, we're talking about ganking pve targets. It's not like this is going to cause more good fights, it's just going to cause more pure one sided ganks. Sorry ganks aren't pvp (there fun when your ganking and its a small gang and you get stuff, but hardly pvp once you surpass a certain amount of people and your going up against pve targets.

We need this to promote small gang fights, not random ganks from invisible undetectable wormholes. You have to get this to function more as a combat method for smaller groups and gangs.


This isn't about GOOD ******* FIGHTS, this is about risk reward!
Rater Chanlin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2014-03-24 03:43:04 UTC
Two step wrote:
Also, there seem to be a lot of people who think even the largest groups can just form up a blob in less than 5 minutes. If you aren't already rolling holes with the intent to gank site runners, it takes time to get folks formed up. It takes time to identify which anomoly or signature people are at. All this change would do is at a minimum (if the discovery scanner was delayed) require people to put in a small amount of effort (mash scan button) to detect incoming K162s. If you want to make the big bucks, you need to be at big risk, and that simply isn't true right now in C5 space and most of C6 space.



It doesn't take that long. In an active hole you will probably have less than five anomalies(a couple probably being ore sites) and less than five sigs. More than likely people running escalations are already scrammed so they are going to need to kill NPCs before they have a chance to get off field. I am using escalations as the example because it seems to be what everyone is using.

One problem I see is signatures showing up when warp is initiated, it makes no sense logically. I believe the signature needs to become scannable when someone jumps through. You should also need to probe the signatures instead of seeing them automatically pop up. Also wouldn't mind seeing ore sites going back to signatures also.
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#214 - 2014-03-24 03:49:25 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Joan Greywind wrote:
I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.

The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.

The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either.


Again, I will repeat it for the folks who have been living under a rock for the past few years. EvE is not meant to be safe, W-Space even more so.


Yes nice deduction from what I have said, apparently if my view is a little different from yours then I must have "been living under a rock".

If you have any good reading comprehension I clearly stated that it is too safe now, but making impossible to see the gank coming is a too easy for the gankers and not too good of game mechanics in my opinion. What I was saying make the relative safety (not total as you can still get ganked) come at a price of your loot. You want to run, fine but you will lose part of your loot.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#215 - 2014-03-24 03:53:07 UTC
An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out.
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#216 - 2014-03-24 03:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Joan Greywind
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out.


Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay, and I am sure with a little creativity this issue can be circumvented.

Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left for the devs to figure out.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2014-03-24 03:55:45 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:
I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.

The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.

The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either.


I said it earlier in the thread, but make blue loot bounties first and MAYBE we can talk.

Until the isk generation in WH space is so fundamentally different from the rest of EVE that the concept of an ESS is BS.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#218 - 2014-03-24 03:58:31 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out.


Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay, and I am sure with a little creativity this issue can be circumvented.

Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out.


In order to make any kind of ESS style module work you'd either have to put blue loot into it directly, which would basically make it a fueled module which could be implemented in a totally different way, or you'd have to make wormholes pay out exactly like any other site, which makes zero sense with the way that wormholes work - who's going to be paying you for shooting sleepers? More to the point, it's removing the logistical challenges that are deliberately there to make living in wormholes less comfortable.
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#219 - 2014-03-24 04:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Joan Greywind
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Joan Greywind wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out.


Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay, and I am sure with a little creativity this issue can be circumvented.

Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out.


In order to make any kind of ESS style module work you'd either have to put blue loot into it directly, which would basically make it a fueled module which could be implemented in a totally different way, or you'd have to make wormholes pay out exactly like any other site, which makes zero sense with the way that wormholes work - who's going to be paying you for shooting sleepers? More to the point, it's removing the logistical challenges that are deliberately there to make living in wormholes less comfortable.


The empires have decided that the sleepers can be a significant threat to the empires and they have many technologies to offer, and would like to start studying the effects of the sleepers in the wh themselves, so if you put the blueprints for them to study in a module they offer you in wh space, they will give you the ability to scan k162's immediately. Took me 2 minutes to solve the "lore" problem for you mr rper, I am sure many more capable people could do a better job.

As I said, as a subscriber it is not my job to offer programming solutions to the devs. All I do is offer my opinion of what I want from a gameplay perspective and it is their role to come with the programming solutions. We first have to agree what is best from a gameplay point of view and then come up with the programming solutions required to implement such a change.

Just a note: Moving blue loot is not in any way a "logistical challenge", would like it to be, but sadly isn't. At best it is a minor inconvenience.
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
#220 - 2014-03-24 04:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gustava Risalo
There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.




Where is your risk?

You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.

Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage.