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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1121 - 2014-03-21 22:30:56 UTC
So 3 days ago when we went on a roam and just missed countless mining fleets, they were not mining my D-Scan was messed up. Got it thanks for clarifying.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1122 - 2014-03-21 22:32:53 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Then you need to get a system in place that collects the minerals/ores and tax them according to their value. Shouldn't be too hard for an entity with your capacities.
I, however, was more referring to that corps pay taxes (sort of membership fees) to the alliance. It's not unheard of, has been used in the past already and it is up to the corps to organize the taxation of things that you named. For miners the minerals/ores are collected by the corp and taxed as described, for ratters and plexers their bounty tax should be enough to pay their chunk.

We have this system in place; it's called "renting."

As far as manually taxing things, it's untenable in a 12,577 member alliance. We prefer automatable taxing schemes.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Mario Putzo
#1123 - 2014-03-21 22:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Querns wrote:
The point here is even if you take out any real or alleged nullsec bias in regards to killing scrap metal refines, there are still plenty of good reasons to do it.


No there aren't.

What this accomplishes.

Reduces module based mineral transport.
- This was already minimally used by anyone with Rorqual access.
Eliminates need to have a Rorqual
- POS is easier to get in any security, and requires way less training
Reduces HS/LS/NS Mineral procurement from missioning by 30%
- unneeded change as the volume has never competed with mining in HS/LS/NS

Gives NS a ~20% boost over HS refinement
- Irrelevant for the most part as minerals flow between HS and NS already and this doesn't impact HS transfers.
Reduces need for LS transport
- Cuts out LS by offering HS pos crushing and JF jumping straight to 0.0


*CCP can add some form of bonus or another skill down the line to enhance base mining rate.

Ultimately you get nothing of overall worth from this. A marginal increase to mining yield that makes up for the market loss of reprocessing yield. There is also not much overall loss. Unless you are a scrap junkie who goes around hoovering up mission blitzers wrecks and producing products without requiring a miner.

It eliminates the scavenger profession and replaces it with nothing, for what amounts to a reallocation of mineral compression from using modules (which need BPO/BPC) and putting it onto a pos mod.

Did I miss anything about how this change offers marginal benefits at cost of eliminating a ship, and a profession? I wonder how long until we see a Rorqual Balance pass since it is useless. Glad I stopped training before I wasted months to get it.

All predicated on the absurdity that NS feels they are inferior, despite currently not even using a quarter of the space they have to any effective value.
TJ Grimes
Doomheim
#1124 - 2014-03-21 22:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: TJ Grimes
I'm a fresh player to Eve and I would like to set up my own business where I mine, reprocess and then use the minerals to make products to sell.

I wanted to do it in the safety of high security space until I have a better understanding of low security space.

So from what I can see, high security miners will lose minerals (and in turn ISK) from a lower reprocessing yield but to balance the ISK loss they are given easy methods to compress ore.

Low/Null security space miners get the better yield, but lose out on the "425mm cannon transporting method" allowing the high security space miners to monopolize and make up for their lower reprocessing yield and generally keeping the same average income of ISK.

But what about people like me who want to keep their minerals to make products, the cost to make a product is higher for me in a sense as some of my minerals are going waste, is my only option to move to low/null security space?

I feel like these changes will force me to charge slightly more for a ship or module I make from high security space as it's cost me slightly more minerals/ore to make it in the first place.

Am I being ignorant and missing something here?

Edit: Are these changes taking into account high security space players who want to use ore/minerals to make ships and modules, or is it being assumed that everyone mines to sell minerals/ore.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1125 - 2014-03-21 22:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
In your world, is it somehow not allowed or impossible to use jump freighters to move 425mm railgun Is to lowsec, where the minerals can be melted and used to build in the same station?

Hint: this is how we do it in nullsec currently, minus the whole "melt and build in the same station" bit (since that is not possible.)

Mining profitability is not negatively impacted; miners just need to sell compressed ore instead of minerals.

The scavenger profession is hardly a profession; it is a pittance of minerals and a marginal number of people are doing it, at best.

In the new situation, we get a world where location and skills actually matter for refining, the end to tying up tens of thousands of empire slothours building railguns just to melt them down, and increased profitability for miners when the very ore they're mining now is worth 20% more due to the increased refinery efficiency.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1126 - 2014-03-21 22:55:51 UTC
Additionally, kneecapping scrap metal refines allows CCP the liberty to actually mess with the build cost of items without fearing a REPROCALYPSE from smart minded folks like myself who would otherwise build on either side of the patch line in order to generate minerals or isk from thin air. Having the 50% cut gives them an enormous amount of freedom.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Mario Putzo
#1127 - 2014-03-21 22:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Querns wrote:
In your world, is it somehow not allowed or impossible to use jump freighters to move 425mm railgun Is to lowsec, where the minerals can be melted and used to build in the same station?

Hint: this is how we do it in nullsec currently, minus the whole "melt and build in the same station" bit (since that is not possible.)

Mining profitability is unchanged; miners just need to sell compressed ore instead of minerals.

The scavenger profession is hardly a profession; it is a pittance of minerals and a marginal number of people are doing it, at best.


No there is nothing stopping you from doing that, and no there isn't anything wrong with that. If you want to produce components and break them apart later that is your choice, and it should be a valid way of transporting materials as it doesn't have any negative impact on the economy, nor the mining or production processes.

In order to sell compressed ore mining groups now REQUIRE a POS or Rorqual access. Where as mining groups could produce popular consumed components to make better income than just minerals. This directly impacts groups which do not have the capacity to get a POS, or a Rorqual. It also puts them into Direct conflict with other groups that they may or may not be able to compete with, and ultimately drives them from the profession, or forces them to kiss a ring to make profits.

Hardly a profession in your opinion, but a profession none the less.

CCP has just said unless you are party to a big group of players EVE Online probably isn't the game for you. Sucks to you. And all to appease a portion of players who currently refuse to use the very space they claim is inferior despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Mario Putzo
#1128 - 2014-03-21 22:59:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
double
Fish Hunter
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1129 - 2014-03-21 23:55:24 UTC
Please make it so that alliance members can use POS to the full extent! Especially with this new compression/better refinery this would be soo nice. Plus slot rental !
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#1130 - 2014-03-22 00:02:28 UTC
*sighs* just had to read through 3 pages of mario vs goons drivel.... Can you guys create your own thread, GD would be more appropriate.
Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1131 - 2014-03-22 00:12:11 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


That's ok, I'm apparently very good at confusing people.

NPC station base reprocessing rate can either be 35% or 50%. After the change, with max skills and the implant you will get 72.4% from a 50% base NPC station.

However, we wanted base Reprocessing Array rates to be higher than NPC stations, thus at 52 and 54%. However, since skills are not taken into account for those, we set them up to artificially count as if you have max skills + implant, thus giving them 75.3% and 78.1%.

Outposts will still be on top of those, with a base rate of 60% when fulling upgraded. As such, with max skills and the implant you'll get a maximum reprocessing rate of 86.8% there.

Is that less confusing now? P




Less confusing but still confusing. EVE industry is something I've wanted to try for a while now but frankly so many of these processes are either broken or nonsensical. Hardly anything is properly explained or documented, and in the end I just walked away. I am but a humble combat pilot, understanding traversal is as complicated as I get.


...If these changes are any indication though that should soon change. I remain hopeful.
Mario Putzo
#1132 - 2014-03-22 00:15:39 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
*sighs* just had to read through 3 pages of mario vs goons drivel.... Can you guys create your own thread, GD would be more appropriate.


It was all relative to the discussion. CSM candidates lobbying for changes in Nullsec that benefits space they don't even use currently while Lowsec and Highsec get the shaft.

Although I guess WH guys should be happy too, they have Rorquals now to use for hole collapsing..
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#1133 - 2014-03-22 00:49:14 UTC
DEFANDER wrote:
So, i take the 10-15 min to write a reply and when i press post it only posts the Quote.


CCP code pays off again and again... too bad it's not repeatable or they would fix it... oh wait..
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1134 - 2014-03-22 00:53:57 UTC
We are freeing you from the shackles of collecting space trash

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#1135 - 2014-03-22 01:03:17 UTC
Kel hound wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


That's ok, I'm apparently very good at confusing people.

NPC station base reprocessing rate can either be 35% or 50%. After the change, with max skills and the implant you will get 72.4% from a 50% base NPC station.

However, we wanted base Reprocessing Array rates to be higher than NPC stations, thus at 52 and 54%. However, since skills are not taken into account for those, we set them up to artificially count as if you have max skills + implant, thus giving them 75.3% and 78.1%.

Outposts will still be on top of those, with a base rate of 60% when fulling upgraded. As such, with max skills and the implant you'll get a maximum reprocessing rate of 86.8% there.

Is that less confusing now? P




Less confusing but still confusing. EVE industry is something I've wanted to try for a while now but frankly so many of these processes are either broken or nonsensical. Hardly anything is properly explained or documented, and in the end I just walked away. I am but a humble combat pilot, understanding traversal is as complicated as I get.


...If these changes are any indication though that should soon change. I remain hopeful.




Industry is not hard. There are now programs that will automatically input prices and spit out what to build. THIS IS NOT HARD.
Doctor Beldrulf
Phoenix Investments
#1136 - 2014-03-22 01:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Beldrulf
So basically,

For those of us who went through the long process of training scrapmetal processing, and all of its prerequisites, and having gone through the standing grind for an npc corp to get some benefit out of reprocessing crappy loot, you are telling us that we wasted our time and that we should have trained something else. Thanks.

I like to know that no matter what I train, it is going to get nerfed somehow. That really motivates me to renew my subscription.

Does it ever occur to you that by making these arbitrary changes to balance something else, that you might take a niche of trading out of the game? Oh, gee, what was that called? Oh yeah--arbitrage. Refining stuff when it goes below base value and making a profit off of it. Well, that will be gone. And what does this accomplish? Oh, you want to motivate more mining. Many of us hate that crap anyway.

How about this: since you are going to make a drastic change to reprocessing and call refining something that its not, why not make npcs super hard to kill while you are at it? For that matter, why not make it pointless to trade by arbitrarily removing the trade skills? How about increasing the amount of training for stuff that matters by a million times? Or better yet, why not make a mechanic that for every new ship you train, on its maiden voyage it blows up for no reason?

I think the worst part about this proposal is that for a summer expansion, instead of giving something, you are taking something away.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#1137 - 2014-03-22 01:09:08 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mylea Chanlin wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mylea Chanlin wrote:
CCP MAKES BIG ANNOUNCEMENT FOR THE SUMMER, CONTAINING:


  • No new ships
  • No new play styles
  • No new content
  • No new reason to play the game


BUT THE INNOVATION DOESN'T STOP THERE!

Oh no. We get to take salvaging and reprocessing--a boring and thankless necessity--and make it 40% more thankless.

Not your brightest move, CCP!

surprisingly enough, not everyone is simple-minded enough to get distracted with new shiny toys features.


Simple-minded enough to make a dumb rebuttal, I suppose.

I want development energies spent on enhancing the game, not endless and stupid frobnicating with the mechanics.

because improving outdated mechanics cannot ever make the game as a whole better...?


Because it shows how little innovation CCP has left in the tank.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1138 - 2014-03-22 01:09:10 UTC
Doctor Beldrulf wrote:
Or better yet, why not make a mechanic that for every new ship you train, on its maiden voyage it blows up for no reason?


This is already a feature of GoonFleet

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Doctor Beldrulf
Phoenix Investments
#1139 - 2014-03-22 01:14:32 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Doctor Beldrulf wrote:
Or better yet, why not make a mechanic that for every new ship you train, on its maiden voyage it blows up for no reason?


This is already a feature of GoonFleet


Indeed,

And Goons have created many laughs with the stories of their shenanigans. Keep it up.
stoicfaux
#1140 - 2014-03-22 01:33:14 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Can we get the pre-reqs for training the Scrapmetal Processing skill reduced?

Refinery Efficiency V and Metallurgy V as pre-reqs seems a bit excessive now that "all refining skills and implants will now only affect ore and ices" i.e. scrapmetal is a now a "lesser" value skill that shouldn't require two ore-centric Vs to train.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.