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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1001 - 2014-03-21 20:05:58 UTC
Mylea Chanlin wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mylea Chanlin wrote:
If you want to specifically target 425mm railguns, target them by modifying the minerals you get out of them. A blanket nerf across all salvage is overkill and unnecessary.

I spent three months of Eve as a dedicated salvager in a salvaging corp, Pro Synergy. Made a career out of it. One of the few careers without any direct incentive or oversight from CCP. I know how much gets reprocessed, and it's a lot. And it's thankless. And it's boring. And now it's a lot worse.

My position is the same: if it needs rebalancing, fine, but spot-fix the problem items, and reduce the overall nerf. That's the right thing to do.


as i have posted some 20 pages ago, you could keep the profits of pro synergy healthy by tinkering with the value of salvage (such as refurbishing T1 into T2 salvage).


Saying something to the effect of: "It isn't a nerf to your profession because you can do another profession" isn't a valid rebuttal.

This isn't about Pro Synergy anyway. It's about an severe nerf to an entire profession as an unintentional side-effect of efforts to fix something else entirely. Hell, salvaging is presented as a career option in the tutorial missions. Did CCP forget that?

so wait, you are afraid of a profession disappearing because of low income, i propose a way of keeping the same income and you still complain?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1002 - 2014-03-21 20:06:33 UTC
Mylea Chanlin wrote:

Saying something to the effect of: "It isn't a nerf to your profession because you can do another profession" isn't a valid rebuttal.

This isn't about Pro Synergy anyway. It's about an severe nerf to an entire profession as an unintentional side-effect of efforts to fix something else entirely. Hell, salvaging is presented as a career option in the tutorial missions. Did CCP forget that?

i should think that a change that pushes people pick a different profession when their most fervent champions admit their profession is boring unfun garbage would be exactly the sort of rebuttal that works when discussing making a game better

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1003 - 2014-03-21 20:08:05 UTC
I should also think that someone who thought highsec refined at 30% would bow out of a discussion on reprocessing in shame, rather than claim to be some pro reprocessor who didn't even know highsec had 50% refineries

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Mario Putzo
#1004 - 2014-03-21 20:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Weaselior wrote:
Mylea Chanlin wrote:

Saying something to the effect of: "It isn't a nerf to your profession because you can do another profession" isn't a valid rebuttal.

This isn't about Pro Synergy anyway. It's about an severe nerf to an entire profession as an unintentional side-effect of efforts to fix something else entirely. Hell, salvaging is presented as a career option in the tutorial missions. Did CCP forget that?

i should think that a change that pushes people pick a different profession when their most fervent champions admit their profession is boring unfun garbage would be exactly the sort of rebuttal that works when discussing making a game better


Coming from a guy whose organization laments mining and production because it is inferior isk/hr to passive moongoo and belt ratting. Come on guy go huff some more Mittani sloopge. Gotta keep the RMT empire running eh.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#1005 - 2014-03-21 20:11:05 UTC
Moongoo suddenly became passive? When did that happen?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1006 - 2014-03-21 20:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Mario Putzo wrote:
don't worry this is probably why the goonies think Anoms are inferior to level 4 missions.

indeed it is, unless you include 'extravagant' equipment. your typical anom ratter will not fly anything unreasonably expensive, limiting his isk/hour to slightly under what a dedicated lvl4 runner can make (in hisec). that is why i am entirely comfortable with the module reprocessing nerf (other than the plight of pro synergy, which i empathise with).

I should buy an Ishtar.
Mario Putzo
#1007 - 2014-03-21 20:13:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
admiral root wrote:
Moongoo suddenly became passive? When did that happen?

Always has been with the exception having to push a couple buttons a couple times a week.

Daniel Plain wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
don't worry this is probably why the goonies think Anoms are inferior to level 4 missions.

indeed it is, unless you include 'extravagant' equipment. your typical anom ratter will not fly anything unreasonably expensive, limiting his isk/hour to slightly under what even a dedicated lvl4 runner can make. that is why i am entirely comfortable with the module reprocessing nerf (other than the plight of pro synergy, which i empathise with).



Nerfs for the sake of nerfs are always poor decisions. There is nothing stopping Nullbears from hoovering up anoms and smashing out the cash. Other than cowardice and laziness of course.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#1008 - 2014-03-21 20:14:49 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Moongoo suddenly became passive? When did that happen?

Always has been with the exception having to push a couple buttons a couple times a week.


Ah, you're one of those experts from out of town, who's never actually done the things you talk about?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Mylea Chanlin
Royal Damsels in Distress
#1009 - 2014-03-21 20:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mylea Chanlin
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mylea Chanlin wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mylea Chanlin wrote:
If you want to specifically target 425mm railguns, target them by modifying the minerals you get out of them. A blanket nerf across all salvage is overkill and unnecessary.

I spent three months of Eve as a dedicated salvager in a salvaging corp, Pro Synergy. Made a career out of it. One of the few careers without any direct incentive or oversight from CCP. I know how much gets reprocessed, and it's a lot. And it's thankless. And it's boring. And now it's a lot worse.

My position is the same: if it needs rebalancing, fine, but spot-fix the problem items, and reduce the overall nerf. That's the right thing to do.


as i have posted some 20 pages ago, you could keep the profits of pro synergy healthy by tinkering with the value of salvage (such as refurbishing T1 into T2 salvage).


Saying something to the effect of: "It isn't a nerf to your profession because you can do another profession" isn't a valid rebuttal.

This isn't about Pro Synergy anyway. It's about an severe nerf to an entire profession as an unintentional side-effect of efforts to fix something else entirely. Hell, salvaging is presented as a career option in the tutorial missions. Did CCP forget that?

so wait, you are afraid of a profession disappearing because of low income, i propose a way of keeping the same income and you still complain?


Who's complaining? The dev asked for feedback. I'm offering it. I think the unintended consequences of this nerf are too severe and it needs to be thought out a little more by the dev team.

If I get on the forums and say the same things after it's released, well, that's complaining.

And again, saying that if I spend time not salvaging that salvaging magically didn't get hit with a big-ass 40% nerf is dumb. Of course I can reprocess T2 modules. On my own personal salvage, I sometimes do.

But to state that all I have to do is buy dozens or hundreds BPOs and sink hours and time, training, and ISK into industry to "un-nerf" salvaging, is pretty silly.
Orion Satar
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1010 - 2014-03-21 20:15:16 UTC
One thing that I didn't see getting mentioned regarding the reprocessing arrays. Will we be able to overfill the arrays by reprocesing?

From what I've seen, after the patch, the reprocessing arrays will have 2,000,000m3 of cargo space. Compressed Veldspar, for example, will have a volume of 257m3 and contain 690,500 units of Tritanium (6905 m3). With the intensive array, I'll get ~78% yield on that so 538,590 units or 5385.9m3. This means a full array with 7,782 blocks of compressed veldspar (1,999,974m3) will reprocess to 4,191,307,380 units of trit, or over 40 million m3.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1011 - 2014-03-21 20:15:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

3. you seem to think that blitzing every mission is always better than burning and salvaging it, which is not the case, as i stated some pages ago.


You mean where you told a lie about making 100 mil/hr in the blocade despite the fact that there in not 100 mil isk in that mission?

no, were i told you the truth about making 100m PER HOUR in the blockade.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Mario Putzo
#1012 - 2014-03-21 20:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Orion Satar wrote:
One thing that I didn't see getting mentioned regarding the reprocessing arrays. Will we be able to overfill the arrays by reprocesing?

From what I've seen, after the patch, the reprocessing arrays will have 2,000,000m3 of cargo space. Compressed Veldspar, for example, will have a volume of 257m3 and contain 690,500 units of Tritanium (6905 m3). With the intensive array, I'll get ~78% yield on that so 538,590 units or 5385.9m3. This means a full array with 7,782 blocks of compressed veldspar (1,999,974m3) will reprocess to 4,191,307,380 units of trit, or over 40 million m3.


Nope you will lose the 38M extra.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1013 - 2014-03-21 20:17:34 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
don't worry this is probably why the goonies think Anoms are inferior to level 4 missions.

indeed it is, unless you include 'extravagant' equipment. your typical anom ratter will not fly anything unreasonably expensive, limiting his isk/hour to slightly under what a dedicated lvl4 runner can make (in hisec). that is why i am entirely comfortable with the module reprocessing nerf (other than the plight of pro synergy, which i empathise with).


Actually, we are limited by what can catch us. Battleships are much easier to catch than the ishtar plus the ishtar has no ammo costs and warps faster while having good firepower.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1014 - 2014-03-21 20:19:25 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

3. you seem to think that blitzing every mission is always better than burning and salvaging it, which is not the case, as i stated some pages ago.


You mean where you told a lie about making 100 mil/hr in the blocade despite the fact that there in not 100 mil isk in that mission?

no, were i told you the truth about making 100m PER HOUR in the blockade.


Now quote the part where I told you I can get 100 mil in the time it takes you run a single blockade by blitzing.
Mylea Chanlin
Royal Damsels in Distress
#1015 - 2014-03-21 20:25:44 UTC
Well, I'm out. I don't know if CCP reads 50 pages into these things to see what we think, but at least I've said my piece. I don't salvage much, anymore, but I sympathize with my corpmates who do, and who use this career as a launching pad for other more interesting things.

I strongly believe the dev team needs to revisit the numbers and come up with something more modest. If there are trouble modules, address those separately.

I also, again, voice my support for low/null processing to be better than high, so long as the difference is more modest.

And, finally, I voice my support for ensuring that skills play into salvaging returns regardless of whether the reprocessing is done in an NPC station or outpost.

Fin.
Mario Putzo
#1016 - 2014-03-21 20:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
don't worry this is probably why the goonies think Anoms are inferior to level 4 missions.

indeed it is, unless you include 'extravagant' equipment. your typical anom ratter will not fly anything unreasonably expensive, limiting his isk/hour to slightly under what a dedicated lvl4 runner can make (in hisec). that is why i am entirely comfortable with the module reprocessing nerf (other than the plight of pro synergy, which i empathise with).


Actually, we are limited by what can catch us. Battleships are much easier to catch than the ishtar plus the ishtar has no ammo costs and warps faster while having good firepower.


You are only limited by what you are afraid to lose. My Battleship is just as vulnerable to a gank in HS or LS mission as you are in NS. You can pretend it isn't but we all know if you want to ganl something in HS you can gank it at reasonable cost. But lets keep pretending its about "risk"

You fly weaker ships and absorb less income because you choose to, not because mechanics force you to.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1017 - 2014-03-21 20:26:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

3. you seem to think that blitzing every mission is always better than burning and salvaging it, which is not the case, as i stated some pages ago.


You mean where you told a lie about making 100 mil/hr in the blocade despite the fact that there in not 100 mil isk in that mission?

no, were i told you the truth about making 100m PER HOUR in the blockade.


Now quote the part where I told you I can get 100 mil in the time it takes you run a single blockade by blitzing.

no need to, as you will not.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1018 - 2014-03-21 20:29:01 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
don't worry this is probably why the goonies think Anoms are inferior to level 4 missions.

indeed it is, unless you include 'extravagant' equipment. your typical anom ratter will not fly anything unreasonably expensive, limiting his isk/hour to slightly under what a dedicated lvl4 runner can make (in hisec). that is why i am entirely comfortable with the module reprocessing nerf (other than the plight of pro synergy, which i empathise with).


Actually, we are limited by what can catch us. Battleships are much easier to catch than the ishtar plus the ishtar has no ammo costs and warps faster while having good firepower.


You are only limited by what you are afraid to lose. My Battleship is just as vulnerable to a gank in HS or LS mission as you are in NS. You can pretend it isn't but we all know if you want to ganl something in HS you can gank it at reasonable cost. But lets keep pretending its about "risk"

You fly weaker ships and absorb less income because you choose to, not because mechanics force you to.

let's stick to the facts here. undocking a ratter in 0.0 is much more dangerous as anything that can catch you, will probably kill you and not just for your shiny purple modules.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Mario Putzo
#1019 - 2014-03-21 20:32:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
don't worry this is probably why the goonies think Anoms are inferior to level 4 missions.

indeed it is, unless you include 'extravagant' equipment. your typical anom ratter will not fly anything unreasonably expensive, limiting his isk/hour to slightly under what a dedicated lvl4 runner can make (in hisec). that is why i am entirely comfortable with the module reprocessing nerf (other than the plight of pro synergy, which i empathise with).


Actually, we are limited by what can catch us. Battleships are much easier to catch than the ishtar plus the ishtar has no ammo costs and warps faster while having good firepower.


You are only limited by what you are afraid to lose. My Battleship is just as vulnerable to a gank in HS or LS mission as you are in NS. You can pretend it isn't but we all know if you want to ganl something in HS you can gank it at reasonable cost. But lets keep pretending its about "risk"

You fly weaker ships and absorb less income because you choose to, not because mechanics force you to.

let's stick to the facts here. undocking a ratter in 0.0 is much more dangerous as anything that can catch you, will probably kill you and not just for your shiny purple modules.


Except you can take more precautions in protecting yourself in 0.0. Where as those who mission in HS are limited to knowing that after they die concord will bounce some dudes into their pods. Protecting yourself in 0.0 isn't difficult. Especially when you are talking about playing deep in your own space. All the same tools as HS, plus bubbles, cynos and the ability to shoot first.

You are only limited to what you are willing to lose. Anywhere in EVE. Game mechanics have nothing to do with personal risk aversion.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1020 - 2014-03-21 20:32:07 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


You are only limited by what you are afraid to lose. My Battleship is just as vulnerable to a gank in HS or LS mission as you are in NS. You can pretend it isn't but we all know if you want to ganl something in HS you can gank it at reasonable cost. But lets keep pretending its about "risk"

You fly weaker ships and absorb less income because you choose to, not because mechanics force you to.


I have no fear of using battleships in null. I am not however, going to stupidly throw them away to interceptors scouting for blops. Ishtars are the better option as fast worp times means more isk, the no ammo means more isk and they are easy to use.