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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#801 - 2014-03-21 15:37:45 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Querns wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Querns wrote:
[quote=GreasyCarl Semah]You are adorable. Please keep posting this weird tangent.

Hint: no one should be mining highsec belts either. They also have terrible isk/hr. We in nullsec, however, are not responsible for the poor choices of those who live in fear of loss.


Oh dear, a member of the Turdswarm "economic cabal" can't refute what I have to say so we get a cutesy post.

Obviously they set the bar quite low for that particular brain trust.


Read back half a dozen pages or so; I've laid out why your posts are terrible and wrong.


Oh thanks for the primer on rock size and spawn rates. That completely explains why you can't seem to get in a mining ship and mine.

Because even if we did, there would not be enough lowend minerals to make anything of worth. This is by design; highsec is supposed to supply the lowends; nullsec, the highends. The whole "rock size and spawn rates" was supposed to speak to this, but apparently I needed to break it down even more for the eve-o crowd.

Using the whip and enslaving all of our members to mine a pittance of ore at terrible isk/hr would not even begin to provide the minerals we need.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#802 - 2014-03-21 15:43:01 UTC
Melek D'Ivri wrote:
Querns wrote:
Qalix wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
In order to make null rewarding the perfect refining of high sec must go.

It would be nice to see you answer something without spin once in a while. Clearly, nosec is totally unrewarding and no one wants to go there. Only by stripping hisec of everything will nosec be rewarding.

You do realize it's not a zero sum game, right?

Adding things to nullsec does not take away from highsec, necessarily. You will continue to enjoy the same reproc rates as you did pre-patch in stations, and will receive a 4% bonus for refining at a pos.


This is not even remotely close to the same reproc rate.


Math is hard after the change if you have max skills you will get the same yield out of a block of veld as you would pre patch. People in null will get slightly more yield out of the same block of veld if they have upgraded their station.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#803 - 2014-03-21 15:47:40 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:

Math is hard after the change if you have max skills you will get the same yield out of a block of veld as you would pre patch. People in null will get slightly more yield out of the same block of veld if they have upgraded their station.

He's referring to the scrap metal refine rate, which is getting kneecapped.

Don't feel bad if you didn't catch it immediately -- the poster you're quoting didn't even mention which type of reprocessing he was talking about. I had to infer it from the general candor of apoplexy he used in his post.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Matalino
#804 - 2014-03-21 15:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Matalino
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Basil Vulpine wrote:
A convenience request which CCP will hopefully consider.

Currently if I'm doing industry I can place a small number of buy orders for the minerals I need.
After this change I will need a much larger range of buy orders to get my compressed ores.

Can we have it so that :
100 Veldspar is compressed -> 100 compressed Veld
100 Concentrated Veld is compressed -> 105 compressed Veld
100 Dense Veld is compressed -> 110 compressed Veld

And so on for each ore type? Sure this reduces your theoretical maximum compression but it's likely a decent enough quality of life trade off. Or maybe retain the current BPOs for normal ores as an optional and using them simplifies the ore down as above.

Sure we'll still need more buy orders than now but not quite as many. It also makes life a bit easier for the little guy who wants just the right amount of minerals and easier for the budding industrialist who doesn't have to remember all of the ore variations. Leave the nitty gritty details of ore types as something for miners.

I'm still digesting the devblog and I may have missed it, will current ore cargo holds also be able to move compressed ore after the patch? I'm assuming they do currently but I've never actually tried.

And for all those complaining about losing their income stream, spare a thought for the poor scammers who currently try to sell overpriced rare compressed ores. I do hope they come up with something new and creative though, Jita local has been missing new scam types for a while.



So you want to lose the extra 5% and 10% compression you get from the ore variants? I suspects a great many people would argue with that.


Ore holds currently allow for compressed Ore. I see no reason for that to change.

I have mixed feelings on this.

I agree with Basil Vulpine that it would be much simpler if we did not need to deal with so many commodities. Instead of down grading the compression for Dense Veld, they could just as easily up grade the compression for regular Veld. Final compression ratios can be balanced so that the end result is that everything has the same compression as the denser ore varieties, making Steve's argument irrelevant. It is all part of the compression ratio balancing process.

On the other hand, having different qualities of compressed ore provides variety that can drive price differences and enhance game play. This difference could result in a price premium for the dense veld making it more valuable than just the minerals it contains. This would then add depth to the mining process by providing increased intensive to favor denser ores. Further variation could be added by increasing the difference in compression ratios by varying the volume between compress ores of different qualities. For example if the volume of compressed dense veld were reduced by 9% while leaving compressed veld alone, it would have a compression ratio that is 20% better, making it even more of a premium product. Such a change could be make incrementally: wait and see how this change goes, and if there is a need for improved mineral compression, then change the volumes of higher quality compressed ore variations.

(Note: I am not suggesting any changes to the volume of the raw ore variants which would affect mining yields, only the volume of compressed ore variants which would affect compression ratios.)
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#805 - 2014-03-21 15:58:44 UTC  |  Edited by: GreasyCarl Semah
Querns wrote:
Because even if we did, there would not be enough lowend minerals to make anything of worth. This is by design; highsec is supposed to supply the lowends; nullsec, the highends. The whole "rock size and spawn rates" was supposed to speak to this, but apparently I needed to break it down even more for the eve-o crowd.

Using the whip and enslaving all of our members to mine a pittance of ore at terrible isk/hr would not even begin to provide the minerals we need.


Obviously an across the board 14.4% advantage in refining changes this situation of "no low end minerals" dramatically.

Of course by "dramatically" I mean not at all and I can't figure out why you are so dense that you just tried to offer that as a point.

At some point, you or your members are going to have to get in a ship and mine if you want to build things. You know...."HTFU!" and play the game if you want the shiny toys. Even after this patch goes live you will have to do that.

Furthermore, if you would take your own advice and "read back a few pages" you will plainly see that I pointed out that I have lived in null sec and know how the asteroids work just fine. It might just save you some typing next time. Apparently I also did the impossible while I was out there... since I ran a mining and manufacturing operation. All of my trit and pyerite came right off the market at less than Jita prices thanks to those annoying hauler spawns in neighboring NPC null.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#806 - 2014-03-21 16:07:30 UTC
This was something that should have been done about 4 years ago.

The issue people are having is.. Why the hell now....

The Universe was a bit more diverse back then, now its under control by a few super entities, and changes to stuff like this empowers them, making it more difficult for other entities to "move in". The conspiracy thinkers believe that the nullsec entities wanted to build more supers, and needed a way for their space/roids to be more valuable. It is a viable issue. The changes are fantastic (should have been so LOOOONG ago), the timing is Terrible (CCP is feeding the trolls when the trolls ask to be fed).

As far as I can see, this makes nullsec stations and space more valuable. Now will the PVP coalitions care. No, but their renters will. This is potentially a massive buff to them. It was something that should have happened years ago though.

Changes are fine, timing is.. borderline idiotic (these changes occuring right now project implied favoritism for certain groups vs shared equality throughout new-eden). Does it need to happen. Yes with little doubt.

Yaay!!!!
Avalokitusvara
Doomheim
#807 - 2014-03-21 16:09:08 UTC
Just another example of CCP giving more advantages to the huge nul sec alliances...Is CCP ran by Goons? It certainly looks like it...
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#808 - 2014-03-21 16:10:01 UTC
Commander Bjorn Gisch wrote:
Death of the casual player. Join a 0.0 alliance, pay tribute, force yourself to login for CTAs, activity minimums. Screw having a real life. We have gone from sandbox to WoW style level regions.

maybe not all of us want to be a null b itch
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#809 - 2014-03-21 16:10:10 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Querns wrote:
Because even if we did, there would not be enough lowend minerals to make anything of worth. This is by design; highsec is supposed to supply the lowends; nullsec, the highends. The whole "rock size and spawn rates" was supposed to speak to this, but apparently I needed to break it down even more for the eve-o crowd.

Using the whip and enslaving all of our members to mine a pittance of ore at terrible isk/hr would not even begin to provide the minerals we need.


Obviously an across the board 14.4% advantage in refining changes this situation of "no low end minerals" dramatically.

Of course by "dramatically" I mean not at all and I can't figure out why you are so dense that you just tried to offer that as a point.

At some point, you or your members are going to have to get in a ship and mine if you want to build things. You know...."HTFU!" and play the game if you want the shiny toys. Even after this patch goes live you will have to do that.

Furthermore, if you would take your own advice and "read back a few pages" you will plainly see that I pointed out that I have lived in null sec and know how the asteroids work just fine. It might just save you some typing next time. Apparently I also did the impossible while I was out there... since I ran a mining and manufacturing operation. All of my trit and pyerite came right off the market at less than Jita prices thanks to those annoying hauler spawns in neighboring NPC null.

I'm happy that you were purportedly able to run a pissant manufacturing operation in nullsec. Good for you. Meanwhile, the big boys are talking about manufacturing supercapital ships.

Even if there were enough minerals to make these ships completely in nullsec, and even if we cracked the whip and posted MINING CTAs (and we both know both of these things are not the case today, but we can pretend that they are,) it would STILL be inferior to shipping minerals in from Empire due to the inefficiencies of nullsec stations and the dearth of safe courier services.

It is hilarious that you think that hauler spawns can somehow provide all the lowends that supercapital ships need.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#810 - 2014-03-21 16:11:31 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:
So building capitals is now the domain of sov holders as well as supers. How can anyone else compete in the market losing 27.6% when everyone in null is losing only 13.2% .

I honestly can't see how there will be any margin>

Look at the Moros
Current Cost: 1930m
New Sov Cost: 2185m
New NPC Cost: 2463m

Difference: 278m

How can anyone compete with the sov holders when they will have a 280m margin?


You aren't meant to compete with them.

This whole change is precisely tailored at bringing in the long time request of large null sec alliances (expecially one) to have everything made the best for them "because we fought to hold sov".

Therefore you are meant to either suck up and join them or close shop.

you guys alrdy get the best of everything eale's
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#811 - 2014-03-21 16:14:22 UTC
Jason Station wrote:
My drink is empty.

If I read this all correctly I'm going to get hit with a very large nerf bat.

The timing is such that I should stock up like hell before the patch.

Once it is over I should hope that bounties alone will pay my way for the next 18 months until the economy recovers (yes I am looking at you battleship BPO)

Oh wait. I really don't give a flying squirrel and will just adapt.

Bartender!

to late the prices have alrdy skyrocked
Crappeshotte
Sehmosh Industrial Security Inc
#812 - 2014-03-21 16:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Crappeshotte
TLDR, but I have a question for the Devs...

I own junk - ships and modules - across four hisec regions which I have bought specifically for the purposes of reprocessing. If I were to reprocess them all today - which isn't practical - they would convert into perhaps 20 billion ISK worth of minerals.

If I understand correctly - and I accept that I may not - after this change is introduced, the quantity of minerals I'd get back - and hence their value - would be dramatically less, even if I skilled up to the max (I'm currently at Scrapmetal Processing 4, Refining 5 and Refinery Efficiency 5) and despite having 8.0+ standing with two NPC Corps.

Am I missing something here, or is a lot of time and financial investment about to be wiped out?
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#813 - 2014-03-21 16:16:31 UTC
Cor'len wrote:
Really, CCP? What a f*cked way to start off announcing summer features.


So in short you're nerfing hisec. Woohoo, sure makes me look forward to this summer then. Sure, the refining bit needed work, but you really didn't have to completely destroy mineral compression and reprocessing loot, as well as drop ore yields down the shitter.


No, I'd rather have it the way it currently is than what you're planning, even if some parts make sense. Stop f*cking up the game, you've done enough already.

don't worry if ccp keeps on this path old hi sec players will quit and new once will go f uck this i'm not playing a game i can't do anything on for 6 months
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#814 - 2014-03-21 16:19:49 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium, if the Minmatar Outpost once fully upgraded is the new "100%" could the numbers not be adjusted to reflect this? Some players may (and probably will) get extremely cranky to invest so much time and isk into getting there refining to perfect skills and implants only to see they refine at 86.8%


We want to leave a waste margin if and when future changes are needed.

Regarding the Minmatar Outpost providing no advantage over the other racial ones when it's not upgraded, that's a good point, will look into that one.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#815 - 2014-03-21 16:21:31 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
High sec should provide a taste of what's available in EVE, and cause players to seek out where they can get more of it/do it better, and those places should be not-highsec. strip highsec down to the frame and leave it on cinder blocks.
edit: and shrink it too.

We'd have to buff null (again) to compensate Goons for all their lost income… Roll

only way to make a goon happy is if you gave them full control over the game oh wait........... CCP already did that when they gave mittani back his account after telling players at fan fest to go tell a player to commit suicide.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#816 - 2014-03-21 16:23:24 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Regarding the Minmatar Outpost providing no advantage over the other racial ones when it's not upgraded, that's a good point, will look into that one.

Thanks a lot; attention to this will be appreciated.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#817 - 2014-03-21 16:24:48 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:

Furthermore, if you would take your own advice and "read back a few pages" you will plainly see that I pointed out that I have lived in null sec and know how the asteroids work just fine. It might just save you some typing next time. Apparently I also did the impossible while I was out there... since I ran a mining and manufacturing operation. All of my trit and pyerite came right off the market at less than Jita prices thanks to those annoying hauler spawns in neighboring NPC null.

i and one other person at one point were using an api parser to alert us to hauler spawns that people in our corporation had killed, back in the belt ratting days, and would then go take them in a rorqual (because nobody ever did because no ratter spends his day hauling trit back in an iteron). we basically collected all of the hauler spawn in the region, so I have a very good idea how many minerals that is.

the flow of minerals from hauler spawns was infintesimal compared to the needs of any alliance living in that space, and that was back when belt ratting was a thing (it no longer is thanks to the chaining nerf). i basically did it solely because it was hilarious and provided enough minerals for the alliance project i was working on, but it doesn't support any amount of industry and that is in the most heavily ratted nullsec region in the game

so you clearly don't actually know anything about nullsec industry and hauler spawns are a hilariously dumb suggestion here

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#818 - 2014-03-21 16:25:26 UTC
Crappeshotte wrote:
TLDR, but I have a question for the Devs...

I own junk - ships and modules - across four hisec regions which I have bought specifically for the purposes of reprocessing. If I were to reprocess them all today - which isn't practical - they would convert into perhaps 20 billion ISK worth of minerals.

If I understand correctly - and I accept that I may not - after this change is introduced, the quantity of minerals I'd get back - and hence their value - would be dramatically less, even if I skilled up to the max (I'm currently at Scrapmetal Processing 4, Refining 5 and Refinery Efficiency 5) and despite having 8.0+ standing with two NPC Corps.

Am I missing something here, or is a lot of time and financial investment about to be wiped out?


Your investment is about to be cut in half, or only 45% if you invest in weeks of training and an implant that is skyrocketing in value. Welcome to Null Sec Cartels Online.

I too have a lot of reprocessing and hauling to do very soon.
Of course, knowing CCP, and how much they hate the bulk of their sub base, I would not be surprised they implement this tomorrow as a surprise "improvement in game mechanics".
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#819 - 2014-03-21 16:29:23 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
what i think about the refining array is: either they can't get the refining array to use your skills (bc programming limitation), or like other new things in EVE they make it OP at first so that people will want to use it/make it a thing. I know of quite a few people who will be happy about this change.

anyway. refining, mining, all PVE sources of isk should be the worst in highsec. make it a sample of game mechanics, but nothing more.

if the refining array is your new best option, go with it.

instead of worrying about mega allies, find a way to join one.


you are right and wrong all at the same time yes a lot of stuff should be worse like the rock types/amounts in the rocks but refining shouldn't be worse since a company is more likly to invest money to refine stuff in a safer place such as hi sec station apose to low/null........ you guys get the better rats better ded sites better asteroid belts/ anom's.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#820 - 2014-03-21 16:29:58 UTC
Crappeshotte wrote:
TLDR, but I have a question for the Devs...

I own junk - ships and modules - across four hisec regions which I have bought specifically for the purposes of reprocessing. If I were to reprocess them all today - which isn't practical - they would convert into perhaps 20 billion ISK worth of minerals.

If I understand correctly - and I accept that I may not - after this change is introduced, the quantity of minerals I'd get back - and hence their value - would be dramatically less, even if I skilled up to the max (I'm currently at Scrapmetal Processing 4, Refining 5 and Refinery Efficiency 5) and despite having 8.0+ standing with two NPC Corps.

Am I missing something here, or is a lot of time and financial investment about to be wiped out?

fortunately for you, they've announced this change months in advance

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.