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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#621 - 2014-03-21 02:58:47 UTC
I haven't read the entire thread yet, so I will likely add additional responses later.

Changing the refining in NPC stations to lowest yield = good change
So I read these changes as being best yield to lowest as being:
Minmatar Station > Other Player built Stations > POSs > NPC Stations
The above is good :)

Not fixing the POSs to use player skill to refine is an abomination, this needs to be fixed ASAP.

I disagree with the changes to where you can get perfect refine though.

Perfect refine should be possible with all skills at 5 and the highest implant(may wish to introduce higher implants) in the lowest NPC station. However this should be exactly 100% when the math is worked, so that missing any one of the appropriate skills or implant you will not get perfect refine.
You should also get perfect refine in the best player built station without the implant and all skills at 4. That should provide enough differentiation.

Module based mineral compression has always been an abomination and glad to see that go/get nerf'd.

Removing the random constant from the formula is good :)

Quote:
Also, all refining skills and implants will now only affect ore and ices

^^^ This is an over nerf

Changing the pre-req for Refining Efficiency of Refining from V to IV is wack, unless you are also planning on doing the same thing for Advanced Laboratory Operation and Advanced Mass Production and a heap of other skills around the place.

Changing the batch amounts to the same number of units will make sense, thankyou.

Introduction of the Ore Compression Array is awesome, however I would've preferred to see it as a new manufacturing array and use the normal Ore Compression Blueprints.

Removal of the Ore Compression BPOs, NOOOOOOO!!!!! I just finished researching 4 complete sets to PE 20(Perfect PE), that was a waste of research time that I could have used on different BPOs :(

New reprocessing UI looks Large, Ugly and missing information. Where does it tell me how much I am loosing to tax? Loosing to my lack of ability to refine? Without seeing this information, the new player will not know that they are wasting potentially more available stuff, making them go looking for how to reduce the waste.

Where is my refine button to tell it to go?

Why are you putting in a warning marker? This might prevent the tears of reprocessing a ship that you didn't mean to :( we need tears of this kind in Eve :)

The changes to the module refining will be interesting, for the people that look at items, and if the mineral price is higher than the market price they buy the module and then reprocess them, to sell the minerals, they will have additional loss in the refine now.
Kiere Padecain
Doomheim
#622 - 2014-03-21 03:02:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kiere Padecain wrote:
You're making a big change so that people should spend the 6+ months training their refinery skills up, giving two tiers of max refinery, one in NPC stations and one in nullsec outposts.

Then you take all that and throw it away saying that PoS refinery will be better than NPC stations without any skills or implants needed.

So that means people can launch a PoS in highsec using standing boosters, and by that get refinery without any skilltime spent at all.

Guess we'll see that rise of hundreds of refinery corps, only there to hold a highsec PoS to refine in.

Skills should affect the PoS refinery just like anywhere else, making PoS refineries still useful, even though STILL requiring the training time to do so.


POS cost more to run than the free NPC station and can be destroyed.


Holding corp, online to refine, offline after.
Unanchor in case of wardec and put it back up after.

The initial investment is higher yes, but the running costs are low, esp because you can pretty much keep it up an hour or two, then pull it back offline again
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#623 - 2014-03-21 03:03:37 UTC
Took some time to understand the blog, due to the wording. I still fail to see the logic behind half the numbers they have proposed.

Overall thumbs down. Swing and miss. Try again.Lol

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Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#624 - 2014-03-21 03:11:56 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:
So building capitals is now the domain of sov holders as well as supers. How can anyone else compete in the market losing 27.6% when everyone in null is losing only 13.2% .

I honestly can't see how there will be any margin>

Look at the Moros
Current Cost: 1930m
New Sov Cost: 2185m
New NPC Cost: 2463m

Difference: 278m

How can anyone compete with the sov holders when they will have a 280m margin?


You aren't meant to compete with them.

This whole change is precisely tailored at bringing in the long time request of large null sec alliances (expecially one) to have everything made the best for them "because we fought to hold sov".

Therefore you are meant to either suck up and join them or close shop.


You'd think someone so astute at following trends would have seen this coming.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#625 - 2014-03-21 03:14:17 UTC
what i think about the refining array is: either they can't get the refining array to use your skills (bc programming limitation), or like other new things in EVE they make it OP at first so that people will want to use it/make it a thing. I know of quite a few people who will be happy about this change.

anyway. refining, mining, all PVE sources of isk should be the worst in highsec. make it a sample of game mechanics, but nothing more.

if the refining array is your new best option, go with it.

instead of worrying about mega allies, find a way to join one.

Help, I can't download EVE

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PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#626 - 2014-03-21 03:14:26 UTC
Here is a thought. Kill the "re" in the reprocessing and just call it processing. We process the ore/ice for minerals. We process the other stuff back to minerals.

There isn't any real "re"processing going on. The only time I reprocess anything is when I process double quarter pounders. Chew chew chew. :D

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#627 - 2014-03-21 03:16:58 UTC
Grendell wrote:
Took some time to understand the blog, due to the wording. I still fail to see the logic behind half the numbers they have proposed.

Overall thumbs down. Swing and miss. Try again.Lol

thats some fine number-reasoning there lou don't strain a muscle thinkin that hard, let alone all that writin

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#628 - 2014-03-21 03:17:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rukoro Okagima wrote:


And your one of those I live in null sec so everyone else go.......... so are you not worth my time. No I understand its not free and I will always go for what's most profitable and knowing me I will buy minerals with mineral profits but it seem just a little like screwing some to unscrew others why not try to fix the issue. Tbh I feel null sec should because of the risks have a buff eg like 120% efficiency however I don't think that a player with perfect standings with an npc corp (and perfect refining skills) should have less then 99% efficiency.


You can only have 100% efficiency.

In order to make null rewarding the perfect refining of high sec must go.


Okay, so you aren't allowed to have perfect reprocessing in high sec anymore. Not an issue. You reduce High Sec effectiveness by 5%. Or by 10%. Not FORTY FRIGGIN FIVE percent. Make Wormholes refining and nulsec equally rewarding to each other, or very closely approximate, make lowsec a little bit worse, and make high sec yield less. Not half. Less. The salvaging and missions community wouldn't be up in arms about the subject if it wasn't a huge part of our way of life, and we sure as heck don't have CSMs in our back pocket to stand up for us.

I do agree with the idea that a 100% high sec yield is maybe not a sensible thing anymore, but you guys are trying to out right kill it off! At worst 90% yield with perfect skills is still a kick to the teeth, but at least we can adapt and learn to live with it. You guys are ridiculous and blow my mind sometimes. Jita gets locked out for 2 days a week with dozens or hundreds of ships stranded on a gate as sitting ducks and THIS is what our money is getting spent on.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#629 - 2014-03-21 03:18:08 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:
So building capitals is now the domain of sov holders as well as supers. How can anyone else compete in the market losing 27.6% when everyone in null is losing only 13.2% .

I honestly can't see how there will be any margin>

Look at the Moros
Current Cost: 1930m
New Sov Cost: 2185m
New NPC Cost: 2463m

Difference: 278m

How can anyone compete with the sov holders when they will have a 280m margin?


You aren't meant to compete with them.

This whole change is precisely tailored at bringing in the long time request of large null sec alliances (expecially one) to have everything made the best for them "because we fought to hold sov".

Therefore you are meant to either suck up and join them or close shop.

sounds like you're complaining that you can't compete with us in any respect

that sounds like a personal problem, when you can't compete don't come begging for handouts

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#630 - 2014-03-21 03:19:23 UTC
oh dear me in order to compete economically with nullsec i might have to put in a fraction of the effort they do?

heavens to betsy this can't be happening what kind of monster would put in a change that would do that

mommmyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#631 - 2014-03-21 03:23:52 UTC
what i don't get is ... if you see how much better entity A's margins will be over entity B, why not ... join entity A? the only reasons I can come up with are RP.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Teshania
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#632 - 2014-03-21 03:25:13 UTC
Love the changes!!!

2 things caught my eye and made me sigh,
1) Refining Arrays Just doing max regardless of skills. (Why train, just drop and pos and move on with life, It breaks the system you are trying to implement)
2) Compression, the Roq is back to being useless, you had it shining again for 30secs, then said don't worry you can us a POS module.

I love it cause it prevents Modules as the primary means of transporting minerals for mass production. But you went and nerfed ships that need to the heart and soul of operations!

My suggestions

1) Move the Refining Arrays out of the POS and make them Deployable Objects, and have then refine based on the user of the object!

2) MAKE THE Roqual Worth something! It needs to have its nitch that is not being shared with a POS or deployable object.

We need a Bounty Button on the Forums
Mario Putzo
#633 - 2014-03-21 03:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Directly nerfing the output of Scrap metal thanks, guess i don't need Mobile tractors anymore.
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#634 - 2014-03-21 03:27:18 UTC
Querns wrote:
Qalix wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
In order to make null rewarding the perfect refining of high sec must go.

It would be nice to see you answer something without spin once in a while. Clearly, nosec is totally unrewarding and no one wants to go there. Only by stripping hisec of everything will nosec be rewarding.

You do realize it's not a zero sum game, right?

Adding things to nullsec does not take away from highsec, necessarily. You will continue to enjoy the same reproc rates as you did pre-patch in stations, and will receive a 4% bonus for refining at a pos.


This is not even remotely close to the same reproc rate.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#635 - 2014-03-21 03:28:59 UTC
I think on page 8 (or maybe it was 15, i dunno: look) CCP Yterrrbbiibbubium (sp?) indirectly admitted the scrapmetal nerf was an unintentional oversight and will be looked at. I could be wrong. if it's important you should definitely read posts by CCP on the topic

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Mario Putzo
#636 - 2014-03-21 03:31:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Rain6637 wrote:
I think on page 8 (or maybe it was 15, i dunno: look) CCP Yterrrbbiibbubium (sp?) indirectly admitted the scrapmetal nerf was an unintentional oversight and will be looked at. I could be wrong. if it's important you should definitely read posts by CCP on the topic


I have only hint at it was in regards to alchemy processing. I use the reprocessed minerals to manufacture ships from BPO's I buy with LP. I now see a some 30% reduction in my ability to do this.

With no return on my investment, unlike miners who get an overall bump if they put in the effort, I get left holding the bag so to speak.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#637 - 2014-03-21 03:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4365984#post4365984

i just think if it means moving, joining someone else, maybe it should be considered. if you're capable of building ships and making it happen on your own, I imagine there are people who will have you.

basically, go where things suck the least

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#638 - 2014-03-21 03:35:22 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Do all the people in empire not realize that 78.2% refine after patch will be the same 100% refine they are currently getting? Empire isn't getting nerfed null is getting a slight buff.


That's funny. Where I learned math 78.2% in fact does not equal 100.0%. But 78.2% does equal 100% of 78.2%. And that "new 100%" they are letting people keep is only on ores. With perfect skills. Buffing ores NOW just gives them leverage to remove that buff later. Because after all. 78.2% of buffed ores will equal 100% then, so removing 5-10% of the yield really won't hurt the miners too much, since there will be too many minerals. Then CCP can knock another small yield off, or raise the skills needed just a little bit, or the standings needed. It's a slippery slope and they didn't even try to hide it. They made a bold & definitive statement that player needs are no longer a first priority. Or... priority at all perhaps.

Increase the skill needs, increase the standings needs - plausible. What they are doing? - Outrageous.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#639 - 2014-03-21 03:36:44 UTC
Melek D'Ivri wrote:
Querns wrote:
Qalix wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
In order to make null rewarding the perfect refining of high sec must go.

It would be nice to see you answer something without spin once in a while. Clearly, nosec is totally unrewarding and no one wants to go there. Only by stripping hisec of everything will nosec be rewarding.

You do realize it's not a zero sum game, right?

Adding things to nullsec does not take away from highsec, necessarily. You will continue to enjoy the same reproc rates as you did pre-patch in stations, and will receive a 4% bonus for refining at a pos.


This is not even remotely close to the same reproc rate.

Not for scrap metal, no.

If you were basing your livelihood solely on scooping completed mission sites, well, I'm afraid you will have to play with the big boys now.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Mario Putzo
#640 - 2014-03-21 03:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Rain6637 wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4365984#post4365984

i just think if it means moving, joining someone else, maybe it should be considered. if you're capable of building ships and making it happen on your own, I imagine there are people who will have you.


I don't want to move and join other people. I am happy where I am. If null sec people are having a hard time finding warm bodies to do things for them, perhaps they should change their politics and not whine to CCP to change the game.