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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#521 - 2014-03-20 23:01:58 UTC
Weaselior wrote:

the 200 days [of training] was me, and much of that is highend ores, you can bust out all highsec ores easily by patch day, and that also included ampV because i was inattentive to my skillplan (whoops)

since i am an overman and live in null i may have need of highend refining as well so i'll do that but someone with zero refining skills can become a perfect veldspar refiner in under 30d then its about 5 days max for each additional highsec ore, so the people scrabbling in the dirt in highsec don't have that sort of training time

Weaselior has a point, and I think everryone who claims that this is an enormous buff for null sec should consider the ramifications that he is putting forward. Right now (like just about everyone), I have my refining skills trained only to level 4. This was a real pain to accomplish, because I live in null and I needed to include every single ore type in my training plan.

If I had stayed in high sec (and stuck to just one faction's systems), I would have only needed to do this with just four ore types. If I found myself traveling into other faction's systems, I would have needed to train more of them, but all of them would have far smaller multipliers to training time than the high sec ores.

I stopped at level 4 because there was no advantage to moving up to 5. Now there is an advantage to getting level 5 trained, and -- as Weaselior noted -- it's going to take me more than 200 days to get all of these skills from level 4 to level 5. It's physically impossible to get all of this done before the patch drops this summer.

If I lived in Amarr high sec, those 200 days would shrink to just 20 days or so.

So null pilots are going to take a far bigger hit in training time than those who live in empire space.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#522 - 2014-03-20 23:04:03 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Some basic points I think CCP misses:
- There are two types of isk: server generated and isk made from other players
- Server generated isk adds to mudflation
- isk made from other players drives down mudflation as eventually those sold goods are blown up.
- Players engaging in PvE have choices which effect the ratio of server isk to player isk
- Loot nerf leads to less mission / ratting / anoms being looted

- Increased ratio of speed running missions means:
- Dilution of LP values
- Increase in salvage value
- Increase in server isk to player isk ratio which = mudflation
- Increase entry barrier for new players


Last I heard something like 80% of players reside in high sec. CCP thinks if it keeps buffing null sec income it will get those players to go to null yet somehow keep forgetting the huge entry barrier to null and the fact that if you want null to become as popular has high sec you have to attract all kinds of players to null.

Currently null sec favors only one kind of player and that is the type like to shoot at everything. Null sec mechanics do not favor industrial types. So CCP keeps buffing what large coalitions can make which just further increases the entry barrier to null. No matter how much you boost mining if you have to have 3 combat pilots to protect every miner / hauler / booster then that means less isk per character involved in the mining op.

The bubble proof interceptors while I love them for getting around null make it so the only way to protect a mining op from a hot drop is to move so deep into null that you are out of cyno range or any red territory. This just further increases the entry barrier to null for newer players and newer corps / alliances

If you want null more active you need to increase the amount of newer players and newer / lower population corps and alliances. If you want that you need to increase the tools for Coalitions and Alliance to open their space to other players. The types of things I can think of to do is are:
- An easy way to share standings publicly like allowing anyone to have their local chat display the standing that any person, alliance or corp chooses to make public.
- More tools to earn isk from neutrals like the ability to set rates of tax i.e. bounty sharing rates
- Tools to tax ore removed from system.

Current null sec mechanics encourage large Coalitions to lock down huge sections of space to not get used. If you want to make null more active you need to change that and create mechanics that incentivise sov holders to encourage other players to use their space. This creates a mechanic where as an Alliance leader I want as many friendlies in my space as possible and as few in my competitors space as possible. So if I set my tax rates too high independents will go to my competition. If I keep my space safer it will be more valuable. If I make my competitors space less safe it will drive down the value of their space.

In short you need to make it so that sov holders are actively seeking more people to come use their space in stead of the mechanic which we currently have which is to encourage them to keep as many people as possible out of their space. The more valuable you make null under the current mechanics the more you make profitable to lock down your boarders and keep as many people out of null as possible.

So instead of trying to make everyone fight regardless of their play style why not make it so that those who like to fight can and those that like to produce can and create tools for the producers to be able to pay the combatants.


you keep forgetting one small thing and that indys are mostly treated as second class in null cpp can't fix null only null can fix null by giving up this stupid anti new players and anti indy lifestyle
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#523 - 2014-03-20 23:04:08 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I might have missed it, but do starbase refining arrays now take skills into consideration?


Not for now, …


Someone who is not trained in industry can simply plug in a 4% implant (they have Cybernetics 5 already in order to use their High Grade Slaves), wander up to a POS and refine as efficiently as someone who has focussed on the appropriate skills. This needs to change so that industry-focussed characters have some advantage over combat-focussed characters when it comes to doing industry stuff.

I hope you can turn "not for now" into "it's on the roadmap for summer/winter 201x" soon :)

Why do refineries in EVE smelt a billion tonnes of ore into metal instantly, when it takes days to manufacture that battleship in the first place? In the words of Pauline Hanson, "I just don't like it!" Ideally, there should be limits to throughput in order to provide other avenues for improvement — either by skills or advanced refinery designs — in order for one group of industrialists to gain a edge over another.

Thank you for these changes so far, CCP, it's a good direction to be heading in order to remove the extreme advantages of NPC supported industry in hi sec over industry in low and null.

Yes, agreed completely. Although I don't think you even need a 4% implant as Ytterbium indicated earlier in this thread that the POS module would operate as though the user already had full skills and a +4% implant.

An additional implant would have no further effect.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#524 - 2014-03-20 23:04:16 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
I don't really get the rage over the implant, it's only like 300m, if they were asking people for a cosmos implant or something maybe that would be an issue but the 4% is like nothing, not even the cost of a normal set of +5s

Well, it's 300m now...

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#525 - 2014-03-20 23:04:30 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
In the words of Pauline Hanson, "I just don't like it!"
There's a name I haven't heard in a long time. I'm wondering just how many people have any idea just who Pauline is. She had the best set of foot-in-mouth quotes of any politician, in any country, over the past 20 years.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#526 - 2014-03-20 23:07:55 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Scyllyn wrote:
Ask yourself would you rather play a game where you can be enjoying "end game" content in less than a fortnight or a game where it takes almost 8 months just to be able to melt rocks properly?


1) EVE doesn't have an end-game.

2) If you love WoW so much because of the "end game" (which is simply levelling your gear instead of your character), why don't you go back there?

3) All the games which try to replicate WoW's model fail. Why should EVE try to emulate WoW when it already has a model that has worked for 10 years?

4) EVE doesn't have an end-game, so discussion of "end game content" is meaningless.

he is aiming more at the fact that it is vary hard on new players and with ccp adding longer and longer skill qu's to the game its going to make this game less and less inviting to new people
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#527 - 2014-03-20 23:08:51 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

the 200 days [of training] was me, and much of that is highend ores, you can bust out all highsec ores easily by patch day, and that also included ampV because i was inattentive to my skillplan (whoops)

since i am an overman and live in null i may have need of highend refining as well so i'll do that but someone with zero refining skills can become a perfect veldspar refiner in under 30d then its about 5 days max for each additional highsec ore, so the people scrabbling in the dirt in highsec don't have that sort of training time

Weaselior has a point, …

I stopped at level 4 because there was no advantage to moving up to 5. Now there is an advantage to getting level 5 trained, and -- as Weaselior noted -- it's going to take me more than 200 days to get all of these skills from level 4 to level 5. It's physically impossible to get all of this done before the patch drops this summer.


One option: form a corporation, make friends who are industrialists too. Then each of you can focus on different refining skills. Ultimately you'll get that 4 -> 5 training done much faster by having each corp member specialise until the entire corp is capable of perfect refines. Then you can all "backfill" the other refining skills over the entire 200-day period required.

Weaselior is only complaining because he has no friends and is not a team player. Or maybe he just likes complaining.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#528 - 2014-03-20 23:12:27 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

the 200 days [of training] was me, and much of that is highend ores, you can bust out all highsec ores easily by patch day, and that also included ampV because i was inattentive to my skillplan (whoops)

since i am an overman and live in null i may have need of highend refining as well so i'll do that but someone with zero refining skills can become a perfect veldspar refiner in under 30d then its about 5 days max for each additional highsec ore, so the people scrabbling in the dirt in highsec don't have that sort of training time

Weaselior has a point, and I think everryone who claims that this is an enormous buff for null sec should consider the ramifications that he is putting forward.

Perhaps Weaselior and yourself would be much happier then, if all the high end null sec ores were moved to high sec.

That would satisfactorily solve the issue, and then you would be freed from this arduous problem over which we all feel very much sympathy for your terrible plight.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#529 - 2014-03-20 23:12:56 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Krom Thomson wrote:
Marcia en Welle wrote:
How about giving low sec and npc null sec some much needed love as you suggested in the Blog ytterbium. I assume you are referring the POS changes being the buff to low sec, even though it will still be much easier to use the POS in high sec.

Increase the base reprocessing rate of stations in low sec and npc null sec to 55%.



that is one i wouldn't be opposed to seeing a bit of love for the low bears


Well, they do get access to the intensive refining array, with a higher return on it.

i meant a little station love
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2014-03-20 23:14:35 UTC
Krom Thomson wrote:
you keep forgetting one small thing and that indys are mostly treated as second class in null cpp can't fix null only null can fix null by giving up this stupid anti new players and anti indy lifestyle

This applies to indies, not newbros.

And as soon as indies start contributing to the good of the alliance at the same level as a PvP player, we will stop treating them like second class citizens.

But to contribute on that level would require them either providing supplies at MASSIVE discounts (And I don't mean 5% over Jita), or supplying the alliance with a flat tax of isk, minerals or ore.

If you want to come out and give your alliance a 30% discount in order to keep your value anywhere near that of a PvP player, then alliances will welcome you with open arms.

But if you think nullsec is your personal isk printing ground for mining, and that providing supplies to the alliance at only slightly ABOVE Jita is some sort of valuable contribution worthy of other people protecting you and the space you live in, you have your head in the sand.

And guess what? Most indy guys only want to go to null to make more money. Actually helping their alliance by decreasing their profit margins or spending time to PvP is nowhere on their agenda. They might pretend to agree to do so, but 90% of the time, they get out there and do absolutely nothing of significant benefit to the alliance.

TLDR: You can have mining profit, with effort paid for living there by PvPing, or you mine there and pay the alliance to protect you with a significant chunk of your efforts, or you can sit in highsec and pathetically whine about how nullsec alliances don't like miners. Pick one.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#531 - 2014-03-20 23:15:06 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
I don't really get the rage over the implant, it's only like 300m, if they were asking people for a cosmos implant or something maybe that would be an issue but the 4% is like nothing, not even the cost of a normal set of +5s


the inplant is not what pi sses me off its the fact that you need it for perfect or well the new perfect
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#532 - 2014-03-20 23:17:54 UTC
Krom Thomson wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I don't really get the rage over the implant, it's only like 300m, if they were asking people for a cosmos implant or something maybe that would be an issue but the 4% is like nothing, not even the cost of a normal set of +5s


the inplant is not what pi sses me off its the fact that you need it for perfect or well the new perfect

It is not the new perfect, the new perfect can only be achieved if you are an alliance holder in null sec with a minmatar fully upgraded station. To be honest I have no problem with this, but at least extend some of the benefit to low sec and npc null.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#533 - 2014-03-20 23:18:00 UTC
Krom Thomson wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I don't really get the rage over the implant, it's only like 300m, if they were asking people for a cosmos implant or something maybe that would be an issue but the 4% is like nothing, not even the cost of a normal set of +5s


the inplant is not what pi sses me off its the fact that you need it for perfect or well the new perfect

of course you should need it to be the best highsec refiner you can be, what would the point be otherwise

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#534 - 2014-03-20 23:19:06 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:

the inplant is not what pi sses me off its the fact that you need it for perfect or well the new perfect

It is not the new perfect, the new perfect can only be achieved if you are an alliance holder in null sec with a minmatar fully upgraded station. To be honest I have no problem with this, but at least extend some of the benefit to low sec and npc null.[/quote]
you got benefits, you get free 54% no skill required refines

asking for what we get with stations that can be taken away from us would be unfair as you'd be getting the same reward without any of the risk

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#535 - 2014-03-20 23:19:48 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Krom Thomson wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I don't really get the rage over the implant, it's only like 300m, if they were asking people for a cosmos implant or something maybe that would be an issue but the 4% is like nothing, not even the cost of a normal set of +5s


the inplant is not what pi sses me off its the fact that you need it for perfect or well the new perfect

It is not the new perfect, the new perfect can only be achieved if you are an alliance holder in null sec with a minmatar fully upgraded station. To be honest I have no problem with this, but at least extend some of the benefit to low sec and npc null.

Anchor an intensive refining array, which can only be done in lowsec or nullsec. Poof, you have an advantage over empire.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#536 - 2014-03-20 23:20:08 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Krom Thomson wrote:
you keep forgetting one small thing and that indys are mostly treated as second class in null cpp can't fix null only null can fix null by giving up this stupid anti new players and anti indy lifestyle

This applies to indies, not newbros.

And as soon as indies start contributing to the good of the alliance at the same level as a PvP player, we will stop treating them like second class citizens.

But to contribute on that level would require them either providing supplies at MASSIVE discounts (And I don't mean 5% over Jita), or supplying the alliance with a flat tax of isk, minerals or ore.

If you want to come out and give your alliance a 30% discount in order to keep your value anywhere near that of a PvP player, then alliances will welcome you with open arms.

But if you think nullsec is your personal isk printing ground for mining, and that providing supplies to the alliance at only slightly ABOVE Jita is some sort of valuable contribution worthy of other people protecting you and the space you live in, you have your head in the sand.

And guess what? Most indy guys only want to go to null to make more money. Actually helping their alliance by decreasing their profit margins or spending time to PvP is nowhere on their agenda. They might pretend to agree to do so, but 90% of the time, they get out there and do absolutely nothing of significant benefit to the alliance.

TLDR: You can have mining profit, with effort paid for living there by PvPing, or you mine there and pay the alliance to protect you with a significant chunk of your efforts, or you can sit in highsec and pathetically whine about how nullsec alliances don't like miners. Pick one.


no i keep forgetting only anome runners can make money hell if an indy even though well go's i think i should make some isk from my product well thats just plain and simple unheard of
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#537 - 2014-03-20 23:22:21 UTC
It looks like one thing that is going to have to stop here is this fascination with "perfect" refines. There is no longer the ability to refine perfectly. What remains is a system where you can train game skills to increase yield, and when that hits its cap, use social skills or PvP skills to get access to facilities to further increase your yield. No longer are capsuleers entitled to 100% refine yield in this brave new era.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#538 - 2014-03-20 23:22:36 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
asking for what we get with stations that can be taken away from us would be unfair as you'd be getting the same reward without any of the risk

I'm not asking for what you get, I am simply asking for a modicum of benefit over high sec stations. And conducting industry in the back ends of low sec or npc null is not without risk.

An upcoming industrial overlord needs somewhere to start, and we cannot all jump straight into null sec with a fully upgraded minmatar outpost.

I'm simply suggesting something along the lines of a 55% station for low sec or npc null. That would make something in low sec which is actually worth fighting for.
Minari Inocari
Nebula Rasa Vanguard
Nebula Rasa
#539 - 2014-03-20 23:23:04 UTC
"Keep calm and carry on"

This is not something to be calm about. You're going to ruin Pro Synergy, a salvaging service corp, and they're already hitting harder times because of the MTU. This is going to be a huge hit to new players and mission runners who rely on their services to become established in eve, and your "compensation" does nothing to help them.

This change is not something I can support at all.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#540 - 2014-03-20 23:23:40 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

One option: form a corporation, make friends who are industrialists too. Then each of you can focus on different refining skills. Ultimately you'll get that 4 -> 5 training done much faster by having each corp member specialise until the entire corp is capable of perfect refines. Then you can all "backfill" the other refining skills over the entire 200-day period required.

Weaselior is only complaining because he has no friends and is not a team player. Or maybe he just likes complaining.

i do so love to complain

sadly the thing is only one person I know has a perfect refine guy handy, and since i deal with a lot of our mineral importation i need to be able to do it myself so i'll be training everything (plus, it lets me help out newbies and the like). that said though, i'll just target the same highsec ores everyone in highsec will be because that's the ore I need to refine, and I can be completionist once it's done

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.