These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
mkint
#481 - 2014-03-20 22:05:47 UTC
Querns wrote:
mkint wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
mkint wrote:
There are no changes that can possibly be made to the game to bring industrialists to nullsec, because there will always be an us vs them. A budding industrialist who wants to move to nullsec has no place in an existing alliance there, because what he really wants is power. And power is horded in nullsec. It's what the entire meta game is about. It's what having CSM voting blocs is about. And it's a closed game to anyone who's not already a part of it.


i'd just like to laugh again at the idea that if you want power what you should be is a highsec industrialist

I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about people. I'm talking about what it is they want out of the game, what their ambitions are.

The odd thing is, you in particular, and your alliance in general, are being the noisiest and least clever supporters of this change. No arguments, just noise. Noise does not make you right. You probably see as clearly as I do how this benefits the nullsec alliances.

This change will lead even further to nullsec stagnation. This change is bad for the game.

Man, I really should get into the "Jump to Conclusions" mat business. I'd be raking it in here in this thread.

Also, duh, this benefits nullsec. You're not revealing some great hidden truth here.

Of course this benefits nullsec. But it affects nullsec more than the dev blog directly states. Mineral prices skyrocket while ore prices drop, regardless of what happens in nullsec. But nullbears get to profit on it coming AND going. But arguing with a goon is pointless. You guys are just better at making lots of noise than anyone else, except for maybe the average two-year-old. Good job.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#482 - 2014-03-20 22:08:16 UTC
someone explain to me the gaping [insert logic here] in mkint's thinking on how this increases mineral prices while decreasing ore

does he think the margin for buying ore off 4-4, refining it, and relisting the mins will be huge despite the fact a single guy in jita can handle all of highsec's refining if that gap opens up

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#483 - 2014-03-20 22:09:05 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

So let me get this straight.
Joe high sec mission runner, who is currently getting 100% refine on modules, will now have to have a hugely expensive implant, plus weeks of skills, to achieve a 27.6% nerf in his mission loot income.

So what null sec cartel corp do you have your alt in?

i don't think you grasped how scrapmetal works in the current system, implants don't affect it and you're getting 55% of what you get now at most (only scrapmetal processing, which is now 2% affects scrapmetal, nothing else, so 50% *1.10=55%)


Both Refining and Refinery Efficiency affect modules reprocessing pre-nerf. As well as Implants. You can use an implant and skip Scrapmetal Processing currently, so yes, if you have Scrapmetal Processing and Implant is useless, but only then. You can currently get 100% yield on an item VERY easily with Standings (just need about 3 weeks of training instead of 6)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#484 - 2014-03-20 22:10:54 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Close. It gives null a handy advantage for anything made out of junk (and is sitll far lower than it used to be). For everything else, highsec will still be the source of the minerals.

null has no scrapmetal bonus: everyone refines scrap the same

I stand corrected. I was somehow thinking in terms of “compared to old” instead of “compared to high”. So null doesn't even have that advantage.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#485 - 2014-03-20 22:11:37 UTC
Melek D'Ivri wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

So let me get this straight.
Joe high sec mission runner, who is currently getting 100% refine on modules, will now have to have a hugely expensive implant, plus weeks of skills, to achieve a 27.6% nerf in his mission loot income.

So what null sec cartel corp do you have your alt in?

i don't think you grasped how scrapmetal works in the current system, implants don't affect it and you're getting 55% of what you get now at most (only scrapmetal processing, which is now 2% affects scrapmetal, nothing else, so 50% *1.10=55%)


Both Refining and Refinery Efficiency affect modules reprocessing pre-nerf. As well as Implants. You can use an implant and skip Scrapmetal Processing currently, so yes, if you have Scrapmetal Processing and Implant is useless, but only then. You can currently get 100% yield on an item VERY easily with Standings (just need about 3 weeks of training instead of 6)

i was unclear, i meant in the system in the devblog, which works how I said it does

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
mkint
#486 - 2014-03-20 22:16:47 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
someone explain to me the gaping [insert logic here] in mkint's thinking on how this increases mineral prices while decreasing ore

does he think the margin for buying ore off 4-4, refining it, and relisting the mins will be huge despite the fact a single guy in jita can handle all of highsec's refining if that gap opens up

You really expect all refining to happen by 1 person from now on? Can we all sit down and think about what this goon is saying? From now on, EVE will only have 1 refiner everybody. We can all call it a day. Problem solved. All hail our goon overlords, come with healing in their hearts and joyous news on their tongues.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#487 - 2014-03-20 22:18:54 UTC
mkint wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
someone explain to me the gaping [insert logic here] in mkint's thinking on how this increases mineral prices while decreasing ore

does he think the margin for buying ore off 4-4, refining it, and relisting the mins will be huge despite the fact a single guy in jita can handle all of highsec's refining if that gap opens up

You really expect all refining to happen by 1 person from now on? Can we all sit down and think about what this goon is saying? From now on, EVE will only have 1 refiner everybody. We can all call it a day. Problem solved. All hail our goon overlords, come with healing in their hearts and joyous news on their tongues.

nope, but i'm not surprised with reading comprehension skills and critical thinking skills like this you think this is a bad change

i will give you a few more breadcrumbs: if a single guy can pocket effort-free profits doing this, what's going to happen to the profit margins when guys two through two thousand try to get in on it

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Scyllyn
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#488 - 2014-03-20 22:26:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
Scyllyn wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Do all the people in empire not realize that 78.2% refine after patch will be the same 100% refine they are currently getting? Empire isn't getting nerfed null is getting a slight buff.




Empire is not getting nerfed? True IF You have PERFECT Refining Skills AND PERFECT Standings AND the 4% Refining Implant

So an industry player will have to train Reprocessing to 5, Reprocessing Efficiency to 5 and waste a clone to have the 4% implant (which requires Cybernetics 5 to plug-in BTW) ......... OHHH AND grind missions for XYZ months after training Social to 5 and all the skills required to run missions just to get a 1.2% "buff"

I thought CCP was trying to attract more people to this game.....

How is a maximum refining yield of 72.4% supposed to be attractive to anyone let alone a beginner?
Especially when it will now take months if not years of skill training and mission grinding to be able to get "decent" yield in 1 npc corporations stations.

I also notice the true minimum yield was never stated as the lowest yield quoted was for a character with Reprocessing 5 Reprocessing Efficiency 1 and PERFECT Standings......


"Perfect standings" means 6.67 corporation standings, the minimum required to reduce the "WE TAKE" portion of reprocessing to 0.00%. You can knock that out pretty quick with data center turnins and a cosmos blitz.



Yeah I know standings can be gained quickly with enough isk and enough points in combat orientated skills and Cybernetics 5 but lets face it we ALL live in a world where in the largest MMO on earth (yes World of Warcraft) a brand new player can be max level and have a full set of "epic" gear if not 2 full sets in less than a week.
Ask yourself would you rather play a game where you can be enjoying "end game" content in less than a fortnight or a game where it takes almost 8 months just to be able to melt rocks properly?
While your at it ask yourself if you would rather have a character with "perfect" refining or a character that can hold its own in a Capital ship be it a dreadnought or a carrier.........
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#489 - 2014-03-20 22:28:13 UTC
How about giving low sec and npc null sec some much needed love as you suggested in the Blog ytterbium. I assume you are referring the POS changes being the buff to low sec, even though it will still be much easier to use the POS in high sec.

Increase the base reprocessing rate of stations in low sec and npc null sec to 55%.
Vanguarder
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#490 - 2014-03-20 22:29:17 UTC
This seems like a form of social engineering.

With all the various ancient bugs and broken functions.... spend your time doing this?

It is my opinion, you will please the top 15% of industrial types, and a lot of the remaining 85% will move on to something else.

Again, CCP wants people to join the big alliances or quit playing.

There is an invisible ceiling in the game.

Solo players or small corps simply can not function when everything becomes so specialized. I'll not pay for alts just to make more use of my one character.

Face it, the same old problem, that of 0.4 might as well be on the otherside of the moon. You need to live in low sec or null to learn the skills needed to survive in low sec or null.

So either you join a huge mega-alliance or you only play the small part of the game that is called Empire.

Are you at CCP sure you all arn't forgetting this is a game we play for fun? Its not real.... you know that, right?
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#491 - 2014-03-20 22:30:46 UTC
mkint wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Right, so this announcement is not a net nerf to high sec?
No, it buffs it pretty significantly, bringing faster and better abilities than it ever had before.

You're usually good with the market stuff. Didn't you read the dev blog? It says very very explicitly, that an absolutely maxed out (someone else did the math that it's 200 days worth of skills, i.e., nearly equivalent to a titan parking alt) would STILL have a lower refining yield than now. The dev blog also listed a more normal loss amount as well, at a 30% nerf to all empire refining. Not to mention the unapologetic PVE nerf. This change is yet another wealth redistribution. It gives (yes, gives, because it's a freebie, result of CSM politics) nullsec alliances a 60% or so economic advantage in anything that's made out of minerals (i.e. those super caps they use to hang onto their sov, and oh by the way get even better mineral compression than ever to help build.) That data is right there in the dev blog, and it just takes arithmetic.



hmm titan perfect refining .. titan perfect refining now tell me what would you pick?
mkint
#492 - 2014-03-20 22:30:55 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
mkint wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
someone explain to me the gaping [insert logic here] in mkint's thinking on how this increases mineral prices while decreasing ore

does he think the margin for buying ore off 4-4, refining it, and relisting the mins will be huge despite the fact a single guy in jita can handle all of highsec's refining if that gap opens up

You really expect all refining to happen by 1 person from now on? Can we all sit down and think about what this goon is saying? From now on, EVE will only have 1 refiner everybody. We can all call it a day. Problem solved. All hail our goon overlords, come with healing in their hearts and joyous news on their tongues.

nope, but i'm not surprised with reading comprehension skills and critical thinking skills like this you think this is a bad change

i will give you a few more breadcrumbs: if a single guy can pocket effort-free profits doing this, what's going to happen to the profit margins when guys two through two thousand try to get in on it

And all it'll take is the skillpoints of a titan pilot. Thank goodness that's a normal state of affairs!

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#493 - 2014-03-20 22:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
If there's a decent margin in it, I'd certainly take up refining ore for profit.

Around 30 days from now, I'd have all the highsec ores at 5 for perfect refine. I already have the standing for perfect refine. So that's an implant, at around 300 million or so (ignoring the current markup on it, since the devblog came out)

Any decent corporation would take care of refining for its members. Easy enough to split the ore requirements between multiple characters.

And it's not like anyone in highsec needs all the ore skills. the ABCs aren't available. Lowsec ores are only in sites.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Lucy Riraille
Taxeva
#494 - 2014-03-20 22:34:31 UTC
Dear DEVS,

work on something more useful! This is just another NERF!!! For miners and missionrunners.
It was YOUR skillsystem that gave max refining yield with oreprocessing IV instead of V.
I bet the refining implant needed will have moonprizes and will be a slot 10 imp, so that either one can mine perfectly or refine perfectly.

The rorqual compresseion rate was messed up by YOU DEVS, it is not the players fault that building other modules or ammo will result in better "mineral compression rate". This could have been fixed xears ago.

Why not implementing a refining array for POS that is worth it's name?

Do you really think people will mine in lowsec, if hisec stations were refining yield wise disadvantaged? BS! NO!

If Moon Minerals or its products could be gotten frome refining modules that reuire them in the production line, this would be great.

But as afar as you described it, this is just another income nerf.

When MTUs were released every single missionrunner used them, so the loot rate got a helluva nerf in order to "stabilize" named item prizes.

As there aren't more players around who salvage the wrecks too (in compatison to all those who loot the wrecks), salvage mat prizes remained somewhat stable. Now, I used to get about 30M ISK loot and salvage from a lv4 Scarlet and about as much from a lv4 Damsel, now the rate is more like 16M far under 20M in any case. Interestingly enough, the worth of the salvage remained the same but it now takes a far bigger part in the overall loot/salvage income than before.

Now this is a result of giving players from day one, without skill or effort a "loot collecting autobot". Anyone can do it, anyone does it, inflation or a huge nerf of drop rates are the consequences.

Now, regarding refining, you are going the complete opposite way, which is bad as well!

Most rorquals are deployed in Nullsec, far less in low and very few in wh space. WH space is THE PLACE where better refining or compression methods are bitterly needed. Althoug most ores can be found in w-space, most of the ore sites despwan without being mined. Why? because no one has enough space in a pos to store large volumes and transport logistics are another issue. Refining those ores at a pos is just wasting time and effort. POS owner have asked for a cure for that for years, as well as rational POS access right management, but that would improve the gameplay experience and mean more fun, so noa chance for us players getting that in the near future.

Not long ago, a survey regarding S&I was handed out to us, but I haven't read of any plans to improve the ****** BPO/ARRAY UI!!! EVEMon is capable of showing my all my assets even when stored in containers, "Alt+T" isn't. SHAME!

There is no way to export corporation wallet data other then by API. How can Corporations calculate their POCO TAX income? By hand....

There are so many things the desperately need fixing, ore refining is not one of them

Compression rates and compression bpc as well as building stuff in order to reprocess it instead of compressing minerals or ore needs overhauling!

Oh and ships not warping, but idlin
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#495 - 2014-03-20 22:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
mkint wrote:

And all it'll take is the skillpoints of a titan pilot. Thank goodness that's a normal state of affairs!

yeah uh no, that's not how many skillpoints it would take

a titan is two years of training

the 200 days was me, and much of that is highend ores, you can bust out all highsec ores easily by patch day, and that also included ampV because i was inattentive to my skillplan (whoops)

since i am an overman and live in null i may have need of highend refining as well so i'll do that but someone with zero refining skills can become a perfect veldspar refiner in under 30d then its about 5 days max for each additional highsec ore, so the people scrabbling in the dirt in highsec don't have that sort of training time

but yes, people more skilled than you should get more rewards but it takes like three guys with the skills in jita to drive profits down to minimal levels

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#496 - 2014-03-20 22:37:56 UTC
Lucy Riraille wrote:
Dear DEVS,


I bet the refining implant needed will have moonprizes and will be a slot 10 imp, so that either one can mine perfectly or refine perfectly.


Slot 8 actually. Competes with gas harvesting. The mining ones are slot 10 (competing with mindlinks)


Lucy Riraille wrote:

The rorqual compresseion rate was messed up by YOU DEVS, it is not the players fault that building other modules or ammo will result in better "mineral compression rate". This could have been fixed xears ago.

This is it being fixed?


Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#497 - 2014-03-20 22:38:20 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
If there's a decent margin in it, I'd certainly take up refining ore for profit.

Around 30 days from now, I'd have all the highsec ores at 5 for perfect refine. I already have the standing for perfect refine. So that's an implant, at around 300 million or so (ignoring the current markup on it, since the devblog came out)

Any decent corporation would take care of refining for its members. Easy enough to split the ore requirements between multiple characters.

And it's not like anyone in highsec needs all the ore skills. the ABCs aren't available. Lowsec ores are only in sites.

you may want to reevaluate what perfect is steve
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#498 - 2014-03-20 22:39:14 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
How about giving low sec and npc null sec some much needed love as you suggested in the Blog ytterbium. I assume you are referring the POS changes being the buff to low sec, even though it will still be much easier to use the POS in high sec.

Increase the base reprocessing rate of stations in low sec and npc null sec to 55%.

So conquerable nullsec should have to spend 35b per outpost to get the same refines as a lowsec station?

Nope.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#499 - 2014-03-20 22:39:30 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.


Smelt.

You smelt alumina to make aluminium

You also smelt aluminium scrap to make aluminium.

The process of rendering "stuff containing the metal I'm after" into "the metal I'm after" is smelting.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#500 - 2014-03-20 22:41:21 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.


Smelt.

You smelt alumina to make aluminium

You also smelt aluminium scrap to make aluminium.

The process of rendering "stuff containing the metal I'm after" into "the metal I'm after" is smelting.

Unfortunately this might get confused with "fishing for smelt."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smelt_(fish)

:V

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.