These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#421 - 2014-03-20 21:23:46 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Sany Saccante wrote:
Any chance to add mineral compression?

It could solve problem with moving minerals to null.


I get a feeling part of this change is to encourage local industry in null sec blocs. What is happening right now is that there are insanely huge power blocks that have 90% of their production in high sec or are relying on imported minerals to build stuff locally. Entire Titan fleets being built with minerals that were mined in a 1.0 system while the rock fields in the systems the Titans are being built are untouched. Does that make sense? No it doesn't. As such, mineral compression as a mechanic is probably being left out very much on purpose. Just like loot reprocessing is being nerfed to **** for the same reason.


This is indeed the problem. So why can't the null sec power blocks HTFU and provide security for a mining operation in their systems? Or is it easier just to elect one of your ranks to the CSM and have that person fly to Iceland to cry all over the conference room table until you get what you want?


CCP has always been a goonz bi tch they have always bent over backwards for them
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#422 - 2014-03-20 21:24:40 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I've been reading through this thread and what I'm not seeing a lot of people comment on is loot reprocs.

I'm sure CCP has access to the amount of minerals that are currently being added to the market through this sort of mining, but I without knowing how much are coming from this method, its going to be pretty hard to fathom just how badly this is going to affect the market. If people were to stop refining all modules for mins that are dropped as loot, this could have a huge affect on the mineral market and having prices going up a good bit.

As another poster said, this is also going to drastically decrease the price for some meta modules (ex: smartbombs that are otherwise valueless). I think people are worried about the wrong thing here (ie minerals from ore) as what CCP has shown is that despite these changes that profession is going to basically stay the same.

I'm just not sure what the point of introducing something like the MTU was if they were going to make looting not profitable, or not worth the time...

Also, with people compressing ore now as a viable profession, I wonder how much minerals that will take off the market since the ore won't be refined and thus also drive the price up. I expect to see all mineral prices rise by 10-20% if not 30% depending on how all this shakes out.


For heavy module reprocessors like myself I can give you a pretty fair estimate that at LEAST 40% of a large batch of mission loot (specifically) is turned into minerals. Sometimes this is higher, and 45%-50% is probably more accuracte, but I can guarantee 40% of the value being from minerals.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#423 - 2014-03-20 21:24:57 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Krom Thomson wrote:

you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks


Refining is 100% and most rocks can be found in high sec in large quantities where they can be mined in near perfect safety.

Null has nothing to offer in terms of mining or processing those minerals.


More lies. Anomalies in high sec are mined out very quickly. There is system after system of belts in null sec with great ore that you guys can't seem to figure out how to take safely. Either that or you are too lazy to take it.


We gain nothing over mining the same stuff in high sec. Why would we not mine it in high sec?
PsychoBitch
Playboy Enterprises
Dark Taboo
#424 - 2014-03-20 21:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: PsychoBitch
YOU PEOPLE ARE OUT OF YOUR ****ING MINDS.

High sec should have the highest reprocessing, it is the most civiled and technologically supreme area which has the benefits of high sec empires making things better.

Null sec has outpost which are the equal to an outhouse to modern worldsindoor toilets. You get garbage refine because it is grindfest and they don't have access to they high sec tech.

I don't mind a change to make perfect refine skills in high sec with standing 100%

I do mind making something that is a temp structure better then high sec.

Making everything null sec based will remove the new player leg up and confirmed high sec player.

Making these changs to ice refine will again remove the new player leg up and confirmed high sec player.

Will we be refunded the time used improve the compression BPO's?

GET YOU HEAD OUT OF YOUR ***!
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#425 - 2014-03-20 21:25:34 UTC
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant

Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition.


A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium.

An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity.


You never get more than 100% refine that is the cap. (theoretically yes... in game no)


The question is 100% of what? A percent alone does not tell the story. For example the new cap for efficiency is 86.9%.

Lets go through the steps:

1) CCP magically adds 38.1% more minerals to all ores.
2) Your old efficiency in high sec was 100% of the minerals in the ore, but now the ore has more minerals.
3) Your new efficiency in high sec is 72.4%* of the minerals in the ore, but no one can get more than 86.9%. Your new efficiency gives you the same number of minerals.
4) OH MY THERE ARE MINERALS LEFT IN THE ORE!!!! - Those minerals were not there before. So if you compare the number of minerals received from old method vs new method then you could have a percentage above 100%. This means CCP is buffing the minerals obtained from ore, but we already know that because in step one CCP magically added more minerals.
* The caveat is that you need to have maxed skills. If you skimped because you were "good enough," well times change and you aren't.
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#426 - 2014-03-20 21:26:04 UTC
Kiere Padecain wrote:
You're making a big change so that people should spend the 6+ months training their refinery skills up, giving two tiers of max refinery, one in NPC stations and one in nullsec outposts.

Then you take all that and throw it away saying that PoS refinery will be better than NPC stations without any skills or implants needed.

Exactly this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#427 - 2014-03-20 21:26:15 UTC
Krom Thomson wrote:


CCP has always been a goonz bi tch they have always bent over backwards for them


Yep, that's why the nerfed tech moons which we mostly controlled.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#428 - 2014-03-20 21:27:18 UTC
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:
So like I was getting at the problem isn't that there isn't a mountain Veld, or Trit if you prefer, in null. It's just that people don't feel like actually taking it.

That is not the case. Lowends continue to be difficult to source in 0.0.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#429 - 2014-03-20 21:27:50 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Kiere Padecain wrote:
You're making a big change so that people should spend the 6+ months training their refinery skills up, giving two tiers of max refinery, one in NPC stations and one in nullsec outposts.

Then you take all that and throw it away saying that PoS refinery will be better than NPC stations without any skills or implants needed.

Exactly this.


POS cost a lot more isk to run and can be blown up.
Jeremy Soikutsu
Kite Co. Space Trucking
#430 - 2014-03-20 21:28:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:

So like I was getting at the problem isn't that there isn't a mountain Veld, or Trit if you prefer, in null. It's just that people don't feel like actually taking it.


Why would we?

High sec offers the exact same but with all the benefits of high sec safety. Why would we take the extra risk for no reward?

I never said you should. I only care about people pushing this "no veld in null" bullshit.

As an aside there's not no benefit, decreased logistics load would be the benefit under a proper set up. If you think that's not worth it that's fine, but it's not nothing.

"Of course you would choose the fun, but you don't lead a relevant entity which has allies." - Colonel Xaven
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#431 - 2014-03-20 21:29:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
We gain nothing over mining the same stuff in high sec. Why would we not mine it in high sec?


Obviously you have a problem with math and I am not going to educate you.

Someone please get ballic1 a third grade math primer.
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#432 - 2014-03-20 21:30:09 UTC
Nice overhaul, now let the rorqual compress minerals and carry those in ihts ore bay too to make it shine as a specialized ship
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#433 - 2014-03-20 21:31:45 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
So why can't the null sec power blocks HTFU and provide security for a mining operation in their systems? Or is it easier just to elect one of your ranks to the CSM and have that person fly to Iceland to cry all over the conference room table until you get what you want?
Yeah I think we get that you are super-jelly of nullsec. That's cool. (Not really.) I spend my time hanging out in hi-sec as well, so I can kinda see where you are coming from. (Again, not really.) But you gotta remember that industrialist in null have ALOT more risks than empire-dwellers. Let's just ignore the fact that being an industrialist in null is currently rather pointless (other than supercap production obviously). It's stupid, but they are still there. And even with all their scout info channels and other nullsec silliness they still have a huge risk - the fact that at anytime somebody can come along and take their POSes, their stations, and their space. All their stuff? Locked away. Never to be seen again. So yeah, they do deserve a few benefits for that risk.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#434 - 2014-03-20 21:31:52 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We gain nothing over mining the same stuff in high sec. Why would we not mine it in high sec?


Obviously you have a problem with math and I am not going to educate you.

Someone please get ballic1 a third grade math primer.


near endless Veld, perfect refining and concord.

What has null got to beat that?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#435 - 2014-03-20 21:32:04 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Krom Thomson wrote:

you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks


Refining is 100% and most rocks can be found in high sec in large quantities where they can be mined in near perfect safety.

Null has nothing to offer in terms of mining or processing those minerals.


More lies. Anomalies in high sec are mined out very quickly. There is system after system of belts in null sec with great ore that you guys can't seem to figure out how to take safely. Either that or you are too lazy to take it.

The problem is that what you see as "system after system of belts in null sec" is actually a pittance of ore compared to what the fires of industry require. We work on different scales; the miner sees boundless fields of plenty, while the supercap producer sees a bare pipe rising out of the ground in a desert ghost town, dripping a little bit of trit onto the ground once every few minutes.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#436 - 2014-03-20 21:32:41 UTC
Kadl wrote:
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant

Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition.


A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium.

An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity.


You never get more than 100% refine that is the cap. (theoretically yes... in game no)


The question is 100% of what? A percent alone does not tell the story. For example the new cap for efficiency is 86.9%.

Lets go through the steps:

1) CCP magically adds 38.1% more minerals to all ores.
2) Your old efficiency in high sec was 100% of the minerals in the ore, but now the ore has more minerals.
3) Your new efficiency in high sec is 72.4%* of the minerals in the ore, but no one can get more than 86.9%. Your new efficiency gives you the same number of minerals.
4) OH MY THERE ARE MINERALS LEFT IN THE ORE!!!! - Those minerals were not there before. So if you compare the number of minerals received from old method vs new method then you could have a percentage above 100%. This means CCP is buffing the minerals obtained from ore, but we already know that because in step one CCP magically added more minerals.
* The caveat is that you need to have maxed skills. If you skimped because you were "good enough," well times change and you aren't.


+ implants
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#437 - 2014-03-20 21:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Destitute Tehol Beddict
Kadl wrote:
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant

Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition.


A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium.

An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity.


You never get more than 100% refine that is the cap. (theoretically yes... in game no)


The question is 100% of what? A percent alone does not tell the story. For example the new cap for efficiency is 86.9%.

Lets go through the steps:

1) CCP magically adds 38.1% more minerals to all ores.
2) Your old efficiency in high sec was 100% of the minerals in the ore, but now the ore has more minerals.
3) Your new efficiency in high sec is 72.4%* of the minerals in the ore, but no one can get more than 86.9%. Your new efficiency gives you the same number of minerals.
4) OH MY THERE ARE MINERALS LEFT IN THE ORE!!!! - Those minerals were not there before. So if you compare the number of minerals received from old method vs new method then you could have a percentage above 100%. This means CCP is buffing the minerals obtained from ore, but we already know that because in step one CCP magically added more minerals.
* The caveat is that you need to have maxed skills. If you skimped because you were "good enough," well times change and you aren't.


Ahh I misunderstood your reply.

To be frankly honest the ORE change do not interest me nor do I care about it..

My concern was with the module changes.. (or really lack there of)

Loot Buying service: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397
Tildor Sarzaf
Pro Synergy
#438 - 2014-03-20 21:33:24 UTC
I for one would like to see some data regarding the necessary changes to these module reprocessing nerfs to incur such a dramatic change. Otherwise, this is just a gut punch into fellow full-time salvagers like myself who not only do this for ISK, but for fun.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#439 - 2014-03-20 21:33:59 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
What I am implying it, that this is a serious nerve to wreck loot - mostly for new players who miss the skills to blitz. Blitzing is already more efficient than looting/salvaging. So once you have the skills, you won't touch wrecks anyways. The people who are hit are players who rely on salvage/looting. Miners will profit since their efficiency is compensated and the demand will less be filled by loot/salvage. So in the end, the afk-miner profits. This is not a high/low/null thing, but a general change. I don't get what positive this part of the change does. It basically rewards afk-gaming.


In my first post I suggested the possibility of increasing the minerals in the meta items to more closely approximate the tier 1 items. The refining change would allow CCP to make that change. I have not seen anything which implies that CCP is specifically aiming at reducing the minerals from salvage loot. The reduction in minerals may be a happy result according to some. The percentage of reduction appears open to change at this point.

On the other hand you are not looking at any of the benefits of this change. This change will make refining more than "go to a 50% station with these skills and reputation". The change adds a variety of choices all of which have some benefits. This will allow a number of specialized player options adding to a players options in EVE. Since there is specialization choices, a player can choose to do something specific for a larger group or profit as an individual doing one step. I have suggested before that this provides another profitable role for high sec mining corporations, allowing more social interaction in that realm. Few people have the skills needed for the best refining, which puts currently new players in a more equal position vis-a-vis older players.

I am a bit saddened by the loss of salvaging incomes, but given the numerous other opportunities for even a new character I think this is reasonable. The currently mutable state of this change allows CCP to choose the full effect of the impact of the salvaging nerf by messing with meta item mineral composition. They could also do the same thing when they look at the extra minerals they have added to many ship production lines. I certainly do not see any reason to take a depressed, the world is ending, attitude.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#440 - 2014-03-20 21:34:24 UTC
Additionally, the size of asteroids in nullsec asteroid belts is misleading; these asteroids are at the size that they because they have spent YEARS being unmined, growing to their current sizes. These asteroids do not balloon to this size overnight; if you were to mine out the entire asteroid belt one day, you'd see a belt that looks eerily similar to highsec belts the next day.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.