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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#401 - 2014-03-20 21:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Using maths, can you explain how to make refining in nullsec better than trivially available 100% refines in free, invulnerable NPC station in hi-sec?


Why should refining in nullsec be better than anywhere else?

Nullsec already has better: Ratting, Rocks, Anomalies, Missions, PI, etc, etc. I'm not real sure how anyone can say that risk out there isn't rewarded.


So miners and re-processors shouldn't be rewarded for taking more risk?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#402 - 2014-03-20 21:09:04 UTC
Juliette Asanari wrote:
Aside from other effects mentioned in this thread, the price of a lot of meta 1->3 items is going to plumet, since their value is mostly derived from their reprocessed materials. Any hike in mineral prices is very unlikely to compensate for a 45-50% loss in minerals, since the size of that mineral hike is very dependend on the amount of minerals injected into the mineral market via module repro vs. the amount injected via mining.


This.

Ditto for all smartbombs and meta armor plates.

I wonder if this will lead to an exodus from missioning and then to a corresponding increase in the value of the remaining good meta items.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#403 - 2014-03-20 21:09:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Using maths, can you explain how to make refining in nullsec better than trivially available 100% refines in free, invulnerable NPC station in hi-sec?


Why should refining in nullsec be better than anywhere else?

Nullsec already has better: Ratting, Rocks, Anomalies, Missions, PI, etc, etc. I'm not real sure how anyone can say that risk out there isn't rewarded.


So miners and re-processors shouldn't be rewarded for taking more risk?

you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#404 - 2014-03-20 21:09:15 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
[quote=Malcanis]

I don't think that fixing null industry and not nerfing empire industry are really mutually exclusive. Null industry can be fixed without driving the empire industry to the ground.


With the current state of manufacturing, I believe you are wrong on this point:

Highsec has the costumers.
Highsec has perfect refine.
Highsec has more build options.
Highsec has more safety.

The only way you will encourage nullsec industry is to make it competitive with highsec industry. Highsec currently has all the conveniences you'd desire for industry, why would anyone produce in nullsec?

The answer is profitability. You need to reward the effort and risks associated with operating in nullsec/lowsec with more profitable manufacturing. This won't eliminate highsec manufacturing from producing the majority of items in game, because (as demonstrated by many posts in this thread), players are generally lazy and are more than willing to sacrifice some profits for convenience.


And screwing High sec over is the perfect way to do. So now you are forced to use POS, which are broken and ancient code, to get the best refining results and still lose money over it, while people in 00 in their blue realms, where no one attacks them, can safely refine in station and get more minerals out of the same ore than what's actually in side the ore ... genius.


Encouraging players to use POS's is 10000x better than the current M.O. Items in a station are pretty much 100% safe (unless you store it in a corp hangar). Items at a POS are subject to potential theft and are subject to destruction if you get wardecced. No longer do you simply drop to an NPC corp and avoid wardecs while experiencing perfect industry. This opens the door to conflict, which is the driving force of this game. I understand (as a highsec manufacture too), why this is a nerf, but I welcome the change!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#405 - 2014-03-20 21:10:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Some of these dev blogs should really come with free lube...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#406 - 2014-03-20 21:10:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Using maths, can you explain how to make refining in nullsec better than trivially available 100% refines in free, invulnerable NPC station in hi-sec?


Why should refining in nullsec be better than anywhere else?

Nullsec already has better: Ratting, Rocks, Anomalies, Missions, PI, etc, etc. I'm not real sure how anyone can say that risk out there isn't rewarded.


So miners and re-processors shouldn't be rewarded for taking more risk?


You don't take more risks. that's the entire problem with your believes.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#407 - 2014-03-20 21:11:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rukoro Okagima wrote:
Ok I admit it I don't give a flying pickled onion about highsec production just why nerf salvaging and module reprocessing. I tried to stay quiet promise


Buff to miners.


well, kinda... Mining can be done afk meaning that it can potentially be botted (sorry, no method of bot detection short of full system analysis is full-proof). Because it can be botted, making it more profitable can produce more bots doing it.

If you want to see a real buff to mining as a profession, they need to change how mining is done in the same way that hacking was changed to be more interactive. I'm not saying add a click fest... I want to see something done for mining that rewards being at the keyboard with more ore and fun. This would also make botting more difficult (or at the very least more complex - interactive can be tough) which means more value added to the real miners.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#408 - 2014-03-20 21:12:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
So miners and re-processors shouldn't be rewarded for taking more risk?


They aren't rewarded already with belts and belts of mid grade ores?
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#409 - 2014-03-20 21:12:38 UTC
Kiere Padecain wrote:
You're making a big change so that people should spend the 6+ months training their refinery skills up, giving two tiers of max refinery, one in NPC stations and one in nullsec outposts.

Then you take all that and throw it away saying that PoS refinery will be better than NPC stations without any skills or implants needed.

So that means people can launch a PoS in highsec using standing boosters, and by that get refinery without any skilltime spent at all.

Guess we'll see that rise of hundreds of refinery corps, only there to hold a highsec PoS to refine in.

Skills should affect the PoS refinery just like anywhere else, making PoS refineries still useful, even though STILL requiring the training time to do so.

Exactly ^^

CCP need to make POS modules require skills.

Also why not buff some of the low sec and null sec NPC station so they give a base refine of around 55%. Then low would finally have some relevance.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#410 - 2014-03-20 21:13:25 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

You don't take more risks. that's the entire problem with your believes.

then surely you can compete just as easily with us by coming out to 0.0

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#411 - 2014-03-20 21:13:54 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rukoro Okagima wrote:
Ok I admit it I don't give a flying pickled onion about highsec production just why nerf salvaging and module reprocessing. I tried to stay quiet promise


Buff to miners.


well, kinda... Mining can be done afk meaning that it can potentially be botted (sorry, no method of bot detection short of full system analysis is full-proof). Because it can be botted, making it more profitable can produce more bots doing it.

If you want to see a real buff to mining as a profession, they need to change how mining is done in the same way that hacking was changed to be more interactive. I'm not saying add a click fest... I want to see something done for mining that rewards being at the keyboard with more ore and fun. This would also make botting more difficult (or at the very least more complex - interactive can be tough) which means more value added to the real miners.

that i agree with 100% but miners have been asking for a more interesting way to mine
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#412 - 2014-03-20 21:15:12 UTC
Sany Saccante wrote:
Any chance to add mineral compression?

It could solve problem with moving minerals to null.


I get a feeling part of this change is to encourage local industry in null sec blocs. What is happening right now is that there are insanely huge power blocks that have 90% of their production in high sec or are relying on imported minerals to build stuff locally. Entire Titan fleets being built with minerals that were mined in a 1.0 system while the rock fields in the systems the Titans are being built are untouched. Does that make sense? No it doesn't. As such, mineral compression as a mechanic is probably being left out very much on purpose. Just like loot reprocessing is being nerfed to **** for the same reason.

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MicDeath Titan
No Mans Corp
#413 - 2014-03-20 21:15:26 UTC
Since my thread was locked, and directed here, here it is.

As a Rorqual Pilot I have to say this dev blog pissed me the right fk off!
Seriously? WTF CCP?!?
A pos module that not only can be used ANYWHERE(that means highsec bucko!), but it also has 20 bloody fking MILLION cargo space, AND is instant?
guys....
Guys...
GUYS!!!
You are giving the power of EIGHTY RORQUALS into a SINGLE POS MODULE, and at a cost probably FAR FAR cheaper than a Rorqual to boot.

Seriously... either nerf this mod down to reality or give the Rorqual a buff to make them more worthwhile to use than the pos module, because as it stands, this pos module just nuked the Rorqual out of a job.

ok, got that out of my system.
Here is what I think about the rest of the blog though.
[img]http://upload.linkswarm.com/i/sunny77/boner0Yw.gif[/img]
^Probably NSFW
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#414 - 2014-03-20 21:15:37 UTC
Krom Thomson wrote:

you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks


Refining is 100% and most rocks can be found in high sec in large quantities where they can be mined in near perfect safety.

Null has nothing to offer in terms of mining or processing those minerals.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#415 - 2014-03-20 21:16:36 UTC
MicDeath Titan wrote:
Since my thread was locked, and directed here, here it is.

As a Rorqual Pilot I have to say this dev blog pissed me the right fk off!
Seriously? WTF CCP?!?
A pos module that not only can be used ANYWHERE(that means highsec bucko!), but it also has 20 bloody fking MILLION cargo space, AND is instant?
guys....
Guys...
GUYS!!!
You are giving the power of EIGHTY RORQUALS into a SINGLE POS MODULE, and at a cost probably FAR FAR cheaper than a Rorqual to boot.

Seriously... either nerf this mod down to reality or give the Rorqual a buff to make them more worthwhile to use than the pos module, because as it stands, this pos module just nuked the Rorqual out of a job.

ok, got that out of my system.
Here is what I think about the rest of the blog though.
[img]http://upload.linkswarm.com/i/sunny77/boner0Yw.gif[/img]
^Probably NSFW


The rorqual is getting rebalanced at a later date.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#416 - 2014-03-20 21:16:54 UTC
Krom Thomson wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rukoro Okagima wrote:
Ok I admit it I don't give a flying pickled onion about highsec production just why nerf salvaging and module reprocessing. I tried to stay quiet promise


Buff to miners.


well, kinda... Mining can be done afk meaning that it can potentially be botted (sorry, no method of bot detection short of full system analysis is full-proof). Because it can be botted, making it more profitable can produce more bots doing it.

If you want to see a real buff to mining as a profession, they need to change how mining is done in the same way that hacking was changed to be more interactive. I'm not saying add a click fest... I want to see something done for mining that rewards being at the keyboard with more ore and fun. This would also make botting more difficult (or at the very least more complex - interactive can be tough) which means more value added to the real miners.

that i agree with 100% but miners have been asking for a more interesting way to mine


I am one of those miners. CCP, please make mining something I can't do while blackout drunk, and I might actually put my perfect mining/refining skills to proper use.
Jeremy Soikutsu
Kite Co. Space Trucking
#417 - 2014-03-20 21:19:12 UTC
Querns wrote:
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:
Querns wrote:
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:
Emilia Istis wrote:
as you know there is a little veldspar in null

Have you ever even been in a null belt?

Also because of people saying **** like this null ores were jammed full of low-ends, so cram it.

The reason asteroids are so large in nullsec belts is because no one mines them. If for some ungodly reason you were daft enough to actually mine a regular asteroid belt over a mining anomaly (or perhaps as a function of bootstrapping an industrial index,) you would quickly exhaust the inflated asteroid, and it would return to regenerating at the normal rate.

So what are we talking about here? In the situation that null miners were not feeling that they were too good or too chicken **** to mine a belt, it would be the same as high? God forbid.

Well, aside from the exact asteroid types, yeah. Nearly all the ore mining that goes on in nullsec is done in upgraded systems and in mining anomalies spawned as a function of those upgrades.

So like I was getting at the problem isn't that there isn't a mountain Veld, or Trit if you prefer, in null. It's just that people don't feel like actually taking it.

"Of course you would choose the fun, but you don't lead a relevant entity which has allies." - Colonel Xaven
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#418 - 2014-03-20 21:21:05 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Sany Saccante wrote:
Any chance to add mineral compression?

It could solve problem with moving minerals to null.


I get a feeling part of this change is to encourage local industry in null sec blocs. What is happening right now is that there are insanely huge power blocks that have 90% of their production in high sec or are relying on imported minerals to build stuff locally. Entire Titan fleets being built with minerals that were mined in a 1.0 system while the rock fields in the systems the Titans are being built are untouched. Does that make sense? No it doesn't. As such, mineral compression as a mechanic is probably being left out very much on purpose. Just like loot reprocessing is being nerfed to **** for the same reason.


This is indeed the problem. So why can't the null sec power blocks HTFU and provide security for a mining operation in their systems? Or is it easier just to elect one of your ranks to the CSM and have that person fly to Iceland to cry all over the conference room table until you get what you want?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#419 - 2014-03-20 21:21:48 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:

So like I was getting at the problem isn't that there isn't a mountain Veld, or Trit if you prefer, in null. It's just that people don't feel like actually taking it.


Why would we?

High sec offers the exact same but with all the benefits of high sec safety. Why would we take the extra risk for no reward?
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#420 - 2014-03-20 21:23:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Krom Thomson wrote:

you do get more reward you guys get the better rocks and bigger rocks


Refining is 100% and most rocks can be found in high sec in large quantities where they can be mined in near perfect safety.

Null has nothing to offer in terms of mining or processing those minerals.


More lies. Anomalies in high sec are mined out very quickly. There is system after system of belts in null sec with great ore that you guys can't seem to figure out how to take safely. Either that or you are too lazy to take it.