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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#381 - 2014-03-20 20:48:53 UTC
Do all the people in empire not realize that 78.2% refine after patch will be the same 100% refine they are currently getting? Empire isn't getting nerfed null is getting a slight buff.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#382 - 2014-03-20 20:49:07 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Adellle Nadair wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Isn't a lot of the nullsec production problem, partly a nullsec culture problem. When alliances are run from the mentality that 'every body in a CTA matters' then you sort of alienate really productive indy pilots. So it is up to null sec 'culture leaders' to empower their own industrial base.


No, the nullsec production problem is caused by hi-sec having utter dominance in every conceivable industry advantage, to the point that the only people doing industry in null are either RPers, supercap builders or just plain bad at maths.

OK some hi bulk, low-value stuff gets built like ratting ammo and cap boosters, but even there the quantities are small compared to what gets imported.


The attitude that nullsec is the only way to play the game and that everyone needs to take part is wrong. It is perfectly acceptable to play and do things in highsec. Highsec should always have the ability to do most things as well as null. That gives more things to do and more ways to play. There are a large amount of players that want to be able to play casually, (relatively) safely and without the drama of nullsec life. Null should have methods to make industry more welcoming, and make it not as hard as it is now to manufacture. But giving nullsec game mechanics that make it impossible to compete in highsec is wrong.


But it's acceptable that hi-sec is the only place that is viable for production, right?


I don't think that fixing null industry and not nerfing empire industry are really mutually exclusive. Null industry can be fixed without driving the empire industry to the ground.


Using maths, can you explain how to make refining in nullsec better than trivially available 100% refines in free, invulnerable NPC station in hi-sec?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#383 - 2014-03-20 20:50:20 UTC
No offense but this is the most confusing blog I've ever read.

Anyway, so this is another case of some people badly abusing a game mechanic and CCP nerfing an entire industry screwing everyone because of few bad apples. Not happy with this at all.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#384 - 2014-03-20 20:51:20 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Do all the people in empire not realize that 78.2% refine after patch will be the same 100% refine they are currently getting? Empire isn't getting nerfed null is getting a slight buff.


That is only true for Ores.

Modules will not receive this boost, and modules are heavily used in mineral compression to move massive amounts of materials around.

Null is actually getting a nerf at the same time it is getting a buff.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#385 - 2014-03-20 20:51:56 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
No offense but this is the most confusing blog I've ever read.

Anyway, so this is another case of some people badly abusing a game mechanic and CCP nerfing an entire industry screwing everyone because of few bad apples. Not happy with this at all.


The few bad apple being 99% of us.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#386 - 2014-03-20 20:52:55 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Do all the people in empire not realize that 78.2% refine after patch will be the same 100% refine they are currently getting? Empire isn't getting nerfed null is getting a slight buff.


That is only true for Ores.

Modules will not receive this boost, and modules are heavily used in mineral compression to move massive amounts of materials around.

Null is actually getting a nerf at the same time it is getting a buff.

Did you miss where ore compression is getting a massive boost to compensate for the loss of scrapmetal processing?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rukoro Okagima
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#387 - 2014-03-20 20:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rukoro Okagima
Ok I admit it I don't give a flying pickled onion about highsec production just why nerf salvaging and module reprocessing. I tried to stay quiet promise
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#388 - 2014-03-20 20:53:38 UTC
Reizak StormFury wrote:


I think you'll find that with simpler and more accessible compression, people won't be refining ores in high sec. Instead they'll be selling compressed ore direct to market.

So, you won't need to export minerals from high to null. You'll transport compressed ore instead.


I've not heard any talk of which minerals get used most versus the ores they come from. Without careful consideration this could lead to one ore high in a particular mineral becoming way out of balance with everything else. Already we see the ABC ores way down the list of most profitable. Will these changes fix this or make it better?

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#389 - 2014-03-20 20:53:57 UTC
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant

Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition.


A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium.

An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity.
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#390 - 2014-03-20 20:54:15 UTC
Querns wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Do all the people in empire not realize that 78.2% refine after patch will be the same 100% refine they are currently getting? Empire isn't getting nerfed null is getting a slight buff.


That is only true for Ores.

Modules will not receive this boost, and modules are heavily used in mineral compression to move massive amounts of materials around.

Null is actually getting a nerf at the same time it is getting a buff.

Did you miss where ore compression is getting a massive boost to compensate for the loss of scrapmetal processing?


Some people don't use scrap metal reprocessing only for compression...

Loot Buying service: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2014-03-20 20:54:15 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Do all the people in empire not realize that 78.2% refine after patch will be the same 100% refine they are currently getting? Empire isn't getting nerfed null is getting a slight buff.

High sec is getting refining arrays that will refine in the 104% of current yield so they are getting buffed also. And high sec is also getting a compressing array.
I would also like to add they get these buffs with almost no skill investment.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#392 - 2014-03-20 20:54:33 UTC
Qalix wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
In order to make null rewarding the perfect refining of high sec must go.

It would be nice to see you answer something without spin once in a while. Clearly, nosec is totally unrewarding and no one wants to go there. Only by stripping hisec of everything will nosec be rewarding.

You do realize it's not a zero sum game, right?


You are dealing with a goon here.
They are operating on a dual purpose: Destroy high sec while at the same time enriching themselves.
They are one step closer in achieving their goal with this announcement.

I am really looking forward to the other attacks on high sec they pushed through with this release.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#393 - 2014-03-20 20:56:06 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Do all the people in empire not realize that 78.2% refine after patch will be the same 100% refine they are currently getting? Empire isn't getting nerfed null is getting a slight buff.


That is only true for Ores.

Modules will not receive this boost, and modules are heavily used in mineral compression to move massive amounts of materials around.

Null is actually getting a nerf at the same time it is getting a buff.


Nope, it does not. At least not 00 that is properly run, means with industrial people who mine locally so that you don't need to import. If you need to import stuff, then you do it wrong and deserve the nerf.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Rukoro Okagima
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2014-03-20 20:56:16 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Do all the people in empire not realize that 78.2% refine after patch will be the same 100% refine they are currently getting? Empire isn't getting nerfed null is getting a slight buff.

High sec is getting refining arrays that will refine in the 104% of current yield so they are getting buffed also. And high sec is also getting a compressing array.
I would also like to add they get these buffs with almost no skill investment.


Yeah the more I look into this I do but my point about salvage as a profitable trade still stands.
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#395 - 2014-03-20 20:56:41 UTC
Kadl wrote:
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
You should be able to achieve 100% refine with 10.0 Standing (NPC station) + Perfect Skills + Implant

Also change the m3 amounts for modules so they are more reflective of there mineral composition.


A while ago I mentioned that some people would feel uncomfortable if they couldn't ever get their number to 100%. My suggestion is to realize that there is a max player skill at max efficiency station and that is essentially 100%. Rate yourself against that and forget the silly game mechanics where all the asteroids suddenly have more tritanium.

An increase in volume (m3) would be an interesting addition since it would localize production of some items or force an additional cost in transportation. In the past CCP reduced transportation costs with jump freighters and the like. Increasing volume requires an increase in transportation which requires increased costs. Increased transportation costs encourages local production in null as well as high sec. We will have to see what CCP wants to do with this opportunity.


You never get more than 100% refine that is the cap. (theoretically yes... in game no)

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#396 - 2014-03-20 20:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
[quote=Malcanis]

I don't think that fixing null industry and not nerfing empire industry are really mutually exclusive. Null industry can be fixed without driving the empire industry to the ground.


With the current state of manufacturing, I believe you are wrong on this point:

Highsec has the costumers.
Highsec has perfect refine.
Highsec has more build options.
Highsec has more safety.

The only way you will encourage nullsec industry is to make it competitive with highsec industry. Highsec currently has all the conveniences you'd desire for industry, why would anyone produce in nullsec?

The answer is profitability. You need to reward the effort and risks associated with operating in nullsec/lowsec with more profitable manufacturing. This won't eliminate highsec manufacturing from producing the majority of items in game, because (as demonstrated by many posts in this thread), players are generally lazy and are more than willing to sacrifice some profits for convenience.


And screwing High sec over is the perfect way to do. So now you are forced to use POS, which are broken and ancient code, to get the best refining results and still lose money over it, while people in 00 in their blue realms, where no one attacks them, can safely refine in station and get more minerals out of the same ore than what's actually in side the ore ... genius.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Sany Saccante
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#397 - 2014-03-20 20:58:24 UTC
Any chance to add mineral compression?

It could solve problem with moving minerals to null.
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#398 - 2014-03-20 20:58:25 UTC
So use compressed ore instead?

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#399 - 2014-03-20 21:04:31 UTC
Rukoro Okagima wrote:
Ok I admit it I don't give a flying pickled onion about highsec production just why nerf salvaging and module reprocessing. I tried to stay quiet promise


Buff to miners.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#400 - 2014-03-20 21:06:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Using maths, can you explain how to make refining in nullsec better than trivially available 100% refines in free, invulnerable NPC station in hi-sec?


Why should refining in nullsec be better than anywhere else?

Nullsec already has better: Ratting, Rocks, Anomalies, Missions, PI, etc, etc. I'm not real sure how anyone can say that risk out there isn't rewarded.