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Null Production/Manufacturing Desireability

Author
Roland Cassidy
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2014-03-05 14:42:15 UTC
How to feed a Navy?

This is the single hardest question I've been trying to weigh in on for the topic of Sov.

In its current state, there's no better means of supplying any Null force than running a JF from Highsec. You can't beat the prices, and lets face it in a game that constantly touts itself for having a robust and active player driven economy, Isk is king.

There's a lot of chatter about making Nullsec a 'better' place to manufacture than Highsec, to swing it so that bringing industry types have a reason to move out to null but in all honestly the more I look at it, the more I just don't see it happening. Lets take a look at a few flies in the ointment of maintaining a solid Industry group in what I like to call "fluid sov". That is Sov that changes hands more easily without the need for months of grinding.

Blueprints: Particularly researched BPO's. No sane production guru is going to want to store their production methods in a system that can be easily flipped and therefore potentially lock him out of it. Highsec currently eliminates this worry, even a wardec does not stop a Highsec manufacturer from grinding out product thanks to the contract system and groups like red frog freight or simply using out of corp alts to eliminate margin deficit. There must be something resembling security of this, and before we fall for the trap of mentioning using POS's as wh corps do, lets remember we're trying to move away from tedious structure grind based warfare AND make Null more attractive for folks to take care of their corp/alliance manufacturing needs locally.

Materials: Players in the game have gone to excessive lengths to avoid Null for Mineral production beyond Moon mining. From utilizing JF's and compression manufacturing, there's just no beating Jita Price for base Materials. The sheer number of afk miners and lower tier miners in Highsec will almost always guarantee that this is the case. The answers here lay in two different formats. Make moving minerals even more ludicrously hard to move, eliminating a niche role of Jump Freighters... or conversely add Null Compressed Ore that vastly outstrips lowsec isk/hour. I'm not a fan of breaking Jump Freighters or making it harder for them to move things. I am a huge proponent of rewarding the risk inherent with Null mining with higher yields. It's echoed in every part of PVE, Risk should be directly related to ISK. And in the null I personally envision, with less "Vast Swaths" of space and your enemies closer at hand, that risk is significant.

If we want to push a Farmers and Fields version of Null, we need to sit down and think about our fields and the resources they offer. ABC ore hasn't been a large draw to Null in ages. The only immediate production we see is that which requires sov (Super production and General Cap production). Though it sounds very pessimistic I have to admit, you're going to always have more people able to mine in Highsec semi afk, watching a movie, or even at work than you will actively mining in null or low for any increase in yield, thus keeping Highsec ore prices consistently low and making it more cost effective to simply move them.


Until a relatively small patch of null is capable of serving the needs of a corp/alliance we're going to continue to see Large Alliances and Large Coalitions reaching out and grabbing as much territory as they can, all in the name of jump bridges, buffer space, and logistics functionality.


I hope I'm able to offer my assistance to the CSM if elected to sift through some of the thoughts on Sov balancing through desirability as well as Sov Mechanics to make the area of the game more dynamic and fluid. I think it's important that All types of players at every tier have something they can offer to the region, and to eliminate the preconceived notion that you need to have x amount of SP to come out and enjoy the Null experience. EVE as a game continually states that everything you do counts, and in the area of space controlled by the players, this needs to reflect this at EVERY level of experience and game play.


I'd welcome any ideas generated in this thread as some food for thought. Remember the name of the game here is to focus on Desirability without grossly breaking the game or proposing nerfs to existing gameplay.

"Watashi no Tao wa magarikunetta michidesu. Watashi wa toraedokoro no nai, heiwa o motome, samayoimasu."

(Trans) "My Tao is a winding path. I wander, seeking an elusive peace. "

浪人

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#2 - 2014-03-05 15:00:50 UTC
Blueprints.
Considering the up to multi-billion ISK investments that Blueprints represent, it's only logical to not store them in a place that you can and will lose at some point. Or in a place where moronic logistics people try to do good and move things around and back to high sec for you during a war and lose everything to to be expected war targets. Whatever change happens in the future to any sov system in EVE, as long as the storing facilities can be lost (it doesn't even need to be easily, the mere expectation of sov loss is already sufficient), nothing is going to change. Quite frankly, why would you go to 00 to manufacture with your precious BPOs anyways? From what I have seen, production, research, invention slots are very limited on most stations.

Materials:
That's not entirely true. If you import materials from high sec you have to add fairly sizable amounts of ISK due to the JF fuel. So, you could get your materials cheaper in 00. However, the problem I see is the lack of respect for industrialists, in all sec levels. Industrial pilots are as welcome in many alliances as the plague, because they need to be babysitted when they mine and don't participate in PVP, or, as I've read in a couple of comments on certain news outlets, are required to participate in PVP and do their indu profession simultaneously. Also, PVPs have nothing better to do than to attack miners in 00, seeing them as easy targets. These attitudes have to change, otherwise nothing what you like to see is going to happen.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#3 - 2014-03-05 15:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
I don't think blueprints are a big deal actually. Sure they're valuable, but they're tiny. Even if the system gets flipped you can get them out safely (if you're not stupid).

Materials: t1 minerals are abundant everywhere in nullsec. You have gun mining + real mining, set up some buy orders and watch as minerals come to you at or below. Higher for mexallon, but whatever. If you're doing major projects and building caps, then mineral compression is a science and always available. I don't think minerals are the problem.

I think the problem is moon materials for t2 production. These must be bought in empire, because that's where they're sold. And you need such a variety of them that getting the right ones in the right quantities from your own alliance moons is not even close to being worth it. T2 stuff is also the bread and butter of what your average nullsec citizen needs access to. Its also often the easiest stuff to import, being low volume and high value. T2 production is the epitome of highsec-nullsec mercantilism. Right now the only advantage a t2 producer has in nullsec is slightly lower cost for pos fuel. In addition to doing all that stuff, he has to either ship back to hisec to sell, or sell to a smaller market. Selling locally he could get better prices, but he could also be completely undercut by one dude with a viator or a JF. The one possible exception might be t2 ship hulls, which have the volume concentrated in the moon minerals, but their volume mostly concentrated in the t1 hull, making them harder to import in bulk.

P.S. In another thread I saw this quote from Mittens, and its right on the money.
The Mittani wrote:

Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything. Sound extreme? It isn’t. An industrialist is not a logistician, but a ‘producer’. Producers live in hisec in countless numbers, and anything that is built there can simply be imported from Jita with a jump freighter - by a logistician. Logisticians matter in alliances; so do financiers, diplomats, and most of all warriors. Producers do not. There has never been a war in the history of EVE which was won by an advantage in local production; the hobbits of ASCN believed their own propaganda and assured each other that production mattered, but they were crushed utterly by Band of Brothers. Take after the words of House Greyjoy: ‘We Do Not Sow’. Be particularly wary of capital/supercapital producers, who are often wealthy and consider themselves to be above alliance rules. Alliances have no need of ‘industrial wings’, ‘industrial directors’ - none of it.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#4 - 2014-03-05 15:17:26 UTC
Increasing the population of nullsec - and thus demand - seems to me like it should be the first step.

If only someone could figure out what's keeping people out of null so that more of them wanted to go there.... hmmmm....
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2014-03-05 15:23:56 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Increasing the population of nullsec - and thus demand - seems to me like it should be the first step.

If only someone could figure out what's keeping people out of null so that more of them wanted to go there.... hmmmm....


Serious question?

@Batelle

That quote pretty much sums up why there are not many 00 industrialists and why there will never be many. Thanks for posting it.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#6 - 2014-03-05 15:37:03 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
Increasing the population of nullsec - and thus demand - seems to me like it should be the first step.

If only someone could figure out what's keeping people out of null so that more of them wanted to go there.... hmmmm....


Serious question?


Sort of. I've discussed it a lot in the perpetual 'nerf highsec' threadnaught wars, but nobody wants to listen or even asks the question in good faith. My post was intended as sarcasm.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#7 - 2014-03-05 15:43:59 UTC
Big smile

I think I answered this question a couple of times already: No interesting in politics and no want to be part of certain coalitions who rule over 00, no time due to real life constraints and thus no perspective in 00 alliances who have quotas for PVP participation, no advantage for the risk of losing your stuff at moments' notice; these are only some reasons why people stay out of 00 that I've read so far repeatedly.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

twit brent
Never Not AFK
#8 - 2014-03-05 15:45:48 UTC
Prety sure CCP stopped caring about mining a very long time ago.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2014-03-05 15:58:18 UTC
As unfortunate as it is, but it's no surprise when you read threads in this forum alone or such quotes with all the disrespect about the profession that keeps the entire game going.Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

twit brent
Never Not AFK
#10 - 2014-03-05 16:07:42 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
As unfortunate as it is, but it's no surprise when you read threads in this forum alone or such quotes with all the disrespect about the profession that keeps the entire game going.Roll


As we speak i'm building a dread in deep 0.0. I have a maxed miner and this character has perfect rorqual boosts. Want to know where i got the minerals?

From ratting. Because mining is bad!
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2014-03-05 16:27:16 UTC
So: remove all the loot from rats in 00. Miners will flock to 00, because of the massive mineral need increase. Problem solved. Oh wait, we had that already ... what was it again ... Ah, right, removal of Drone Alloys. Roll (semi serious)

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Roland Cassidy
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2014-03-05 20:12:01 UTC
As long as producers have primary incentive to stay in Highsec, they will continue to do so. That's the simple case.

I'm well aware of the fact that Null Production is laughable at the moment. But I think some of the earlier responses about the need for the focus of Null being more attractive in general needs to be lauded.

That said, the big giant sprawling super 0.0 coalitions exist because at the moment that's the best way of doing business reliably. If you don't mind permitting me some leeway in expression, if the game is essentially based on the concept of a Corporation being the main social unit, then it's only fitting that best practices discovered by one group inevitably spreads to a competitor. ISO9000 Process Management and Six Sigma Deviation procedures spread through real life industry because one group found the continual revisal and documentation of programs effective and engaging. Right now, due to the "business model" we're presented with the game as is, a truly successful null-sec endeavor stands the best chances by falling under an umbrella of corporations/Alliances which can help augment logistics and security needs.

In order to maintain that "Coalition umbrella" the business model is dependent on 3rd party resources, all of which are currently more easily provided via a strong logistics backbone. There's essentially no room for Mom and Pop Organizations in the Mega Coalition scale of EVE. And because that's the case we don't have small groups eking out an existence in the unused and empty systems of Nullsec on their own, we have renters instead. Because there's no benefit to going it alone and setting up your own thing in Null. To paraphrase one of my corp members, "That's what WH space is for."

So tell me what you think? From the pure point of view of mechanics, what's preventing joe schmo alliance from setting up a small shop in 2 systems of unused space?

How could EVE reward space being used and penalize space that is being held for no useful reason? (IE resource usage, Jump bridge systems, strategic choke points and staging systems.)

"Watashi no Tao wa magarikunetta michidesu. Watashi wa toraedokoro no nai, heiwa o motome, samayoimasu."

(Trans) "My Tao is a winding path. I wander, seeking an elusive peace. "

浪人

unidenify
Deaf Armada
#13 - 2014-03-05 20:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
twit brent wrote:
Prety sure CCP stopped caring about mining a very long time ago.


if that were true then explain about mining barge change, plus Venture mining frigate

it boil down from what I see

logistic needed to keep industrial wing operating in null sec is too much for small reward when they can operate in high sec with better security and better supply line.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2014-03-05 20:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Roland Cassidy wrote:
So tell me what you think? From the pure point of view of mechanics, what's preventing joe schmo alliance from setting up a small shop in 2 systems of unused space?


Your coalition.

Roland Cassidy wrote:
How could EVE reward space being used and penalize space that is being held for no useful reason? (IE resource usage, Jump bridge systems, strategic choke points and staging systems.)


This way

"Rivr Luzade" wrote:
I oppose this opposition. Sov is more than just a nice flag on a structure, which gives the slight chance for meaningles ... meaningful, excuse me, PVP. Sov involves space that needs to be cultivated and maintained. We nowadays see what happens to parts of countries that cannot keep up this cultivation and maintenance; they either end up as nature reserves or habitats for endangered species or as wastelands with industrial rubble and ruins. I would be very much for an activity based sov system, where you have to do certain tasks every day/week (may be better per week, because we don't want to overexert those lovely PVP-only minds, do we? Roll). If an alliance wants to hold sov over a certain system or maybe even an constellation, X NPC need to be farmed, X asteroids mined, X units of PI produced, X units of market goods produced and sold, X moon minerals collected, X structures built, X exploration sites/complexes finished, but also X player ships attacked and destroyed (could prove difficult in wastelands and very remote 00 areas, but alliances certainly come up with some ideas to manage that) - however not only 1 of these Xs needs to be obtained, but a percentage of all of them to get 100% sov holding capabilities.

If we take the example of Cloud Ring as it is at the moment and the example of NPC kills: The entire region would be sov less now except for the constellation Prelle, because Prelle is the only constellation, which has at least some ratting activity. The rest lays idle. So, if you don't use the systems, why do you need sov in them to begin with? And do not tell me because the security level is not good enough. Rats and anomalies also spawn plentiful in -0.1 systems if maintained properly. You also don't need sov to spawn exploration sites and DED complexes, Sov can make it easier due to the Ihub upgrades, granted, but most systems do not feature this upgrade anyways. Other alliances who would use them better if they had the chance. If an alliance is really active and uses all aspects of EVE in their sov holdings, as it is supposed to be, the sov was really meaningful and there was a lot more activity in space.
The same goes for a lot of regions in the drone lands and constellations in Delve, Period Basis, Catch, Tenal, Angel space. The only region that really could not lose sov under this scenario was Providence. The mighty, laughed at Providence, because in Providence every aspect of EVE is used to maintain the region.
In an optimal case there would be hundreds of alliances instead of only dozens who hold sov. If they can keep it, that's another question, but they at least had a chance to try. If smaller alliances are pushed back out of their system/constellation, but the attacking alliance lacks the capabilities to maintain this sov, it would just lay idle without any holder and can function as neutral ground for fights and PVE content.

Yes, this system can also be exploited by certain alliances who just use a token alliance to hold the sov and have a ratting fleet/PI op or something every week, but this is going to wear people out in the long run, especially if you have to maintain hundreds of constellations this way. It also doesn't overcome the problem of blobfests and lag, but Sov in itself has a meaning again and where alliances are forced to use the sandbox. Not everyone has to do PVE, but an alliance needs people for all aspects in its ranks, if they want to hold sov.

What I envision are beacon constellations in 00, where live is sprawling around and very active and then decreasing activity around this beacon, where other people than the current overlords can experiment without pressure.


"Rivr Luzade" wrote:
If I had suggested to limit the activity to only ratting, I would agree with you. However, I think that activity is, as said, more than ratting and more than PVP'ing. It involves - or should involve - a lot of different things. You could even introduce a system (that is something I haven't said yet, granted), which allows an alliance to set up personalized activity quotas for the mentioned subjects, like 10% ratting, 10% PI, 10% PVP-kills, 10% Manufacturing, 10% mined roids, etc. You can freely set the quota that suits your needs or likings best. For instance, in a entrance constellation/system to 00, a higher PVP quota would make more sense than ratting for obvious reasons. In a constellation with good sec status, Ratting makes more sense. In a constellation with suitable stations, belts and planets and feasible low/high sec connection, and with an alliance that wants to do that, a more industry inclined quota makes sense. Etc.


as well as or in combination

"Alvatore DiMarco" wrote:
Activity-based sov is not the solution.

The removal of formal sov at all is the solution.

You want de-facto sovereignty? Enforce it.


If you use this in your CSM campaign or as CSM member, don't forget to mention us. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#15 - 2014-03-05 21:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Rivr Luzade wrote:

@Batelle

That quote pretty much sums up why there are not many 00 industrialists and why there will never be many. Thanks for posting it.


If you think the problem is a perceived lack of respect rather than a real lack of usefulness, then you're missing the point entirely.

If you address the later than the former will change naturally (eventually).

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#16 - 2014-03-05 22:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Rivr Luzade wrote:
So: remove all the loot from rats in 00. Miners will flock to 00, because of the massive mineral need increase. Problem solved. Oh wait, we had that already ... what was it again ... Ah, right, removal of Drone Alloys. Roll (semi serious)



alot of truth to this though.


Why mining does not take off in 0.0 is 2 reasons....and they are related. hate to generalize but die hard miners don't want to fight. Looking at empire you have the die hards who will whine aout pay. My recommendation to them is mission then. For whatever reason they do not even want to fight rats. for some its probably the lack intense work needed to mine that is appealing. Which I always though was bs since even my pve tengu is about as lazy as you can get for isk making. Its why I run it...I know its not max isk/hour (not a tengu is god of pve type). It jsut suits my play style lol.


They do not even train for this. No turrets, no missiles, no ships outside of exhumers/industrials...basically non shooty ships.

Now enters the null sec part. Null sec by and large wants combat pilots. Even the beariest null bear when push comes to shove, and its get your null bear ass on this cta or gtfo before we kick you and make you all nice and grey (which is bad in NBSI space) has the ability to fly a fleet fit pvp ship. But another way while desire to fight may vary....the ability to is always there. A body is a body on a fleet op, not every member has to be AT team quality.

I back 0.0 on thier motives. mainly because I know when the horn sounds and the call to battle is made it **** me off if while I am bashing heads in a fight there are mineres who can't/won't fight making isk while i am potentially losing it in ship losses. this crap pissed me off when null bears did it. At least with null bears leadership can boost tax rate to 100%. Then the null bears either have to log or get off thier lazy ass to fight a bit to get the tax rate dropped when op done.

Now I knew some miners who could fight. They got props from me.



Industrial/manufacturing side of the house...this dies to basic human greed. They charge 0.0 prices that assume stuff like lack of availibility, its in 0.0, fuel costs if jumped in from empire, and good old fashion don't like my prices then go elsewhere. When in 0.0 I went elsewhere. I made out better with good sales or patience with buy orders in trade hubs, then having that stuff shipped via some jf courier in the alliance at say 250 isk/m3. When you are paying less to ship hacs at 250 isk/m3 than buying locally...something has gone awry. Especially when the f'ing moon goo is right there to varying amounts.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#17 - 2014-03-05 23:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
Zan Shiro wrote:


I back 0.0 on thier motives. mainly because I know when the horn sounds and the call to battle is made it **** me off if while I am bashing heads in a fight there are mineres who can't/won't fight making isk while i am potentially losing it in ship losses. this crap pissed me off when null bears did it. At least with null bears leadership can boost tax rate to 100%. Then the null bears either have to log or get off thier lazy ass to fight a bit to get the tax rate dropped when op done.


You are the problem.

Please follow this reasoning.

There are some people who just want to chill and work on their little projects. They may be miners or missioners or whatever. You will never get them out of highsec, because HS is the best place for their chosen style of play. You may be able to lure them to null with promises of safe space, but they will never x up. It's simply not what they pay their subscription for.

There are some who want excitement, or action, or just like to watch ships burn. These people already have various homes, suited to slight variations of gameplay style, in Sov, WH, Lowsec and NPC Null.

In between, there are those like myself. We like all aspects of the game. Unfortunately, there is no space fully suited to us. We are kind of chill - we want to be able to log on and do our thing. We also like the excitement and challenge of PvP, or at the minimum are not afraid of it. The problem is that most forms of PvP are mutually exclusive with being chill- sov in particular. Being forced to defend space 10-20 systems away in mandatory CTAs or under threat of 100% taxes means that we cannot simply log in, play for a while, and move on after an hour or two. The structure of the game, and the policies of Nulliances in particular, prevent us from playing the game in a way we enjoy. So we leave the alliance and head back to highsec, or FW, or exploration in our nullified cloakies. This is what the game offers us. The alternatives are cut off by people like you who do not account for the different needs of different players.

Thus there are two problems - first is the alliances themselves, who actively discourage people like me from joining. The second is the Sov mechanics, which reward blobbing and place pressure on alliances to field only combat pilots. The first is the biggest issue, but it will never change until the second does.

Lastly, no change to Null Industry or nerf to highsec will matter in the slightest until these two things are addressed. There is no risk/reward curve that can compensate for being unable to play the game in a way we enjoy.
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
#18 - 2014-03-05 23:43:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vesan Terakol
From he perspective of a small entity, holding sovereignty is too much of a hassle, too much uncertainty. Imagine yourself as a small, budding alliance, that wants to get to hold of a few systems, where no one ever passes by.

Lets assume the fat owner of the systems lets you slip in undetected, you manage to catch sovereignty, somehow and start deploying next. What will instantly happen, is that the aforementioned fat alliance will come crashing on you as soon as they find the time. Why? Well, definitely not because they need the space, but mostly because they can - Of course they'll rather rent you the space than give it to you, at which point, good luck getting back the rent ISK from just industry.

If you manage to get unnoticed long enough, then comes the logistical question - what would you do with your production? If you use it only to fuel your own alliance, you're likely to have a ton of overproduction, that you need to ship somewhere, as no one will ever buy it from you in your backwater spot. And then comes the point of having to import materials for t2 production, as t1 modules are rarely used except for probably training purposes - meta 1-3 modules are extremely abundant in highsec and outperform them, while possibly costing less. The logistics are inevitable, so, as outline by the quote from The Mittani, you might as well do only that and reserve your pilots for the combat role, where you can never have enough.

The issue of drawing people to null is a lot deeper than simply increasing the reward of what you might find. And even deeper if you want to attract industrialists.

Besides the points commented on above, i'd like to add several other things, that have also been commented on this forum:

- A nerf to prower projection - the ability to instantly bring a massive fleet with minimal risk on the heads of some unsuspecting guys will always keep them away from even considering the idea of starting operations in null.

- The point above would also limit the power of jump freighters, forcing more of the logistics to be performed via less secure or efficient means. This should encourage local production and open the possibilities for more gameplay as supply convoys will have to be escorted, secure trade routes established and as said in one of the quotes, real sovereignty enforced.

- A rebalance of t1 modules to make the meta 0 a lot more desirable - for instance, turn different meta levels to fill specialized niches rather than being straight upgrades and limit the t2 advantage (Adaptive invulnerability fields being close to where you want to be).

- Finally, bring DUST 514 to PC - as a PS3 exclusive it'll never get the population, necessary to allow it to go beyond lowsec on any meaningful scale. With the promises of DUST and EVE production integration, it could turn into a good incentive to draw people to null, as the actual market for their production will be a lot more reliable and less spatially and temporarily detached if large alliances fight for planetary control on the ground daily rather than once in a gap year.

Its less obvious things that often contribute to a complex problems - there is likely several more such issues, that need to be tackled to open up an industrial player to null sec rather than just adding more monetary incentives.

And then, there's the Brave Collective, that seem to be doing just what you want to encourage through sheer enthusiasm and proper encouragement and less min/maxing.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-03-06 00:13:37 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:


I back 0.0 on thier motives. mainly because I know when the horn sounds and the call to battle is made it **** me off if while I am bashing heads in a fight there are mineres who can't/won't fight making isk while i am potentially losing it in ship losses. this crap pissed me off when null bears did it. At least with null bears leadership can boost tax rate to 100%. Then the null bears either have to log or get off thier lazy ass to fight a bit to get the tax rate dropped when op done.


You are the problem.

Please follow this reasoning.

There are some people who just want to chill and work on their little projects. They may be miners or missioners or whatever. You will never get them out of highsec, because HS is the best place for their chosen style of play. You may be able to lure them to null with promises of safe space, but they will never x up. It's simply not what they pay their subscription for.

There are some who want excitement, or action, or just like to watch ships burn. These people already have various homes, suited to slight variations of gameplay style, in Sov, WH, Lowsec and NPC Null.

.




The issue is 0.0 is about making your safe space. or at least less inviting. Hence why 0.0 favors combat pilots.

Drop the pve ship, pick up the pvp ship.

Crews who don't do this...get roamed hard(er). Crews who do this half assed get high burn out rates from people who take their spot in the roams and fleets while others are slacking off in background. This gets you digruntled corp mates real fast.

Been here before...desire to awox was strong. I like making isk too. But there I was making the time to be on an op.
I did this even in the more unfun days of POS based SOV warfare pre dominion. Many pos' I (hell anyone....pos warfare sucked and was liked less than current sov lol) could not give 2 craps about...but there I was on them.

Put another way, 0.0 opens up many isk making chances. All you need to do is give up some time to give the corp an occassional pvp attendance. Its not all that bad. You give leadership thier "does he show up to pvp" checkmark in the box....and you make your billions the rest of the time. You give a little to get lot back. Very fair deal here.

You are from the let me be mindset. I can see that. I'd also say this is what empire is for. I am from the mindset combat pilots are not null bears biyatches mindset. I am not even a pvp or death player. Id happily rat away all night if given the option. But as needed I would take my place in a combat crew.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#20 - 2014-03-06 01:13:34 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
snipped for space


We seem to be saying the same thing here- sov space requires combat. In turn, alliances require combat pilots.

The difference is that I think it's a problem in need of fixing (to open up more gameplay to more people), while you are happy to kick potential alliance-mates back to highsec. At least that's the message I'm getting from what you wrote.
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