Player Features and Ideas Discussion

How to feed a Navy?

This is the single hardest question I've been trying to weigh in on for the topic of Sov.

In its current state, there's no better means of supplying any Null force than running a JF from Highsec. You can't beat the prices, and lets face it in a game that constantly touts itself for having a robust and active player driven economy, Isk is king.

There's a lot of chatter about making Nullsec a 'better' place to manufacture than Highsec, to swing it so that bringing industry types have a reason to move out to null but in all honestly the more I look at it, the more I just don't see it happening. Lets take a look at a few flies in the ointment of maintaining a solid Industry group in what I like to call "fluid sov". That is Sov that changes hands more easily without the need for months of grinding.

Blueprints: Particularly researched BPO's. No sane production guru is going to want to store their production methods in a system that can be easily flipped and therefore potentially lock him out of it. Highsec currently eliminates this worry, even a wardec does not stop a Highsec manufacturer from grinding out product thanks to the contract system and groups like red frog freight or simply using out of corp alts to eliminate margin deficit. There must be something resembling security of this, and before we fall for the trap of mentioning using POS's as wh corps do, lets remember we're trying to move away from tedious structure grind based warfare AND make Null more attractive for folks to take care of their corp/alliance manufacturing needs locally.

Materials: Players in the game have gone to excessive lengths to avoid Null for Mineral production beyond Moon mining. From utilizing JF's and compression manufacturing, there's just no beating Jita Price for base Materials. The sheer number of afk miners and lower tier miners in Highsec will almost always guarantee that this is the case. The answers here lay in two different formats. Make moving minerals even more ludicrously hard to move, eliminating a niche role of Jump Freighters... or conversely add Null Compressed Ore that vastly outstrips lowsec isk/hour. I'm not a fan of breaking Jump Freighters or making it harder for them to move things. I am a huge proponent of rewarding the risk inherent with Null mining with higher yields. It's echoed in every part of PVE, Risk should be directly related to ISK. And in the null I personally envision, with less "Vast Swaths" of space and your enemies closer at hand, that risk is significant.

If we want to push a Farmers and Fields version of Null, we need to sit down and think about our fields and the resources they offer. ABC ore hasn't been a large draw to Null in ages. The only immediate production we see is that which requires sov (Super production and General Cap production). Though it sounds very pessimistic I have to admit, you're going to always have more people able to mine in Highsec semi afk, watching a movie, or even at work than you will actively mining in null or low for any increase in yield, thus keeping Highsec ore prices consistently low and making it more cost effective to simply move them.


Until a relatively small patch of null is capable of serving the needs of a corp/alliance we're going to continue to see Large Alliances and Large Coalitions reaching out and grabbing as much territory as they can, all in the name of jump bridges, buffer space, and logistics functionality.


I hope I'm able to offer my assistance to the CSM if elected to sift through some of the thoughts on Sov balancing through desirability as well as Sov Mechanics to make the area of the game more dynamic and fluid. I think it's important that All types of players at every tier have something they can offer to the region, and to eliminate the preconceived notion that you need to have x amount of SP to come out and enjoy the Null experience. EVE as a game continually states that everything you do counts, and in the area of space controlled by the players, this needs to reflect this at EVERY level of experience and game play.


I'd welcome any ideas generated in this thread as some food for thought. Remember the name of the game here is to focus on Desirability without grossly breaking the game or proposing nerfs to existing gameplay.

I don't think blueprints are a big deal actually. Sure they're valuable, but they're tiny. Even if the system gets flipped you can get them out safely (if you're not stupid).

Materials: t1 minerals are abundant everywhere in nullsec. You have gun mining + real mining, set up some buy orders and watch as minerals come to you at or below. Higher for mexallon, but whatever. If you're doing major projects and building caps, then mineral compression is a science and always available. I don't think minerals are the problem.

I think the problem is moon materials for t2 production. These must be bought in empire, because that's where they're sold. And you need such a variety of them that getting the right ones in the right quantities from your own alliance moons is not even close to being worth it. T2 stuff is also the bread and butter of what your average nullsec citizen needs access to. Its also often the easiest stuff to import, being low volume and high value. T2 production is the epitome of highsec-nullsec mercantilism. Right now the only advantage a t2 producer has in nullsec is slightly lower cost for pos fuel. In addition to doing all that stuff, he has to either ship back to hisec to sell, or sell to a smaller market. Selling locally he could get better prices, but he could also be completely undercut by one dude with a viator or a JF. The one possible exception might be t2 ship hulls, which have the volume concentrated in the moon minerals, but their volume mostly concentrated in the t1 hull, making them harder to import in bulk.

P.S. In another thread I saw this quote from Mittens, and its right on the money.

Serious question?

@Batelle

That quote pretty much sums up why there are not many 00 industrialists and why there will never be many. Thanks for posting it.

I think I answered this question a couple of times already: No interesting in politics and no want to be part of certain coalitions who rule over 00, no time due to real life constraints and thus no perspective in 00 alliances who have quotas for PVP participation, no advantage for the risk of losing your stuff at moments' notice; these are only some reasons why people stay out of 00 that I've read so far repeatedly.

As unfortunate as it is, but it's no surprise when you read threads in this forum alone or such quotes with all the disrespect about the profession that keeps the entire game going.

So: remove all the loot from rats in 00. Miners will flock to 00, because of the massive mineral need increase. Problem solved. Oh wait, we had that already ... what was it again ... Ah, right, removal of Drone Alloys. (semi serious)

if that were true then explain about mining barge change, plus Venture mining frigate

it boil down from what I see

logistic needed to keep industrial wing operating in null sec is too much for small reward when they can operate in high sec with better security and better supply line.

If you think the problem is a perceived lack of respect rather than a real lack of usefulness, then you're missing the point entirely.

If you address the later than the former will change naturally (eventually).

You are the problem.

Please follow this reasoning.

There are some people who just want to chill and work on their little projects. They may be miners or missioners or whatever. You will never get them out of highsec, because HS is the best place for their chosen style of play. You may be able to lure them to null with promises of safe space, but they will never x up. It's simply not what they pay their subscription for.

There are some who want excitement, or action, or just like to watch ships burn. These people already have various homes, suited to slight variations of gameplay style, in Sov, WH, Lowsec and NPC Null.

In between, there are those like myself. We like all aspects of the game. Unfortunately, there is no space fully suited to us. We are kind of chill - we want to be able to log on and do our thing. We also like the excitement and challenge of PvP, or at the minimum are not afraid of it. The problem is that most forms of PvP are mutually exclusive with being chill- sov in particular. Being forced to defend space 10-20 systems away in mandatory CTAs or under threat of 100% taxes means that we cannot simply log in, play for a while, and move on after an hour or two. The structure of the game, and the policies of Nulliances in particular, prevent us from playing the game in a way we enjoy. So we leave the alliance and head back to highsec, or FW, or exploration in our nullified cloakies. This is what the game offers us. The alternatives are cut off by people like you who do not account for the different needs of different players.

Thus there are two problems - first is the alliances themselves, who actively discourage people like me from joining. The second is the Sov mechanics, which reward blobbing and place pressure on alliances to field only combat pilots. The first is the biggest issue, but it will never change until the second does.

Lastly, no change to Null Industry or nerf to highsec will matter in the slightest until these two things are addressed. There is no risk/reward curve that can compensate for being unable to play the game in a way we enjoy.

The issue is 0.0 is about making your safe space. or at least less inviting. Hence why 0.0 favors combat pilots.

Drop the pve ship, pick up the pvp ship.

Crews who don't do this...get roamed hard(er). Crews who do this half assed get high burn out rates from people who take their spot in the roams and fleets while others are slacking off in background. This gets you digruntled corp mates real fast.

Been here before...desire to awox was strong. I like making isk too. But there I was making the time to be on an op.
I did this even in the more unfun days of POS based SOV warfare pre dominion. Many pos' I (hell anyone....pos warfare sucked and was liked less than current sov lol) could not give 2 craps about...but there I was on them.

Put another way, 0.0 opens up many isk making chances. All you need to do is give up some time to give the corp an occassional pvp attendance. Its not all that bad. You give leadership thier "does he show up to pvp" checkmark in the box....and you make your billions the rest of the time. You give a little to get lot back. Very fair deal here.

You are from the let me be mindset. I can see that. I'd also say this is what empire is for. I am from the mindset combat pilots are not null bears biyatches mindset. I am not even a pvp or death player. Id happily rat away all night if given the option. But as needed I would take my place in a combat crew.