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buff carriers (not supers)

Author
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#1 - 2014-02-20 14:10:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellendras Silver
due to a changes in the past i really think that carriers need a buff as they are a joke compared to other drone boats, i will make my case as we go along.

1. in the past fighters and fighter bombers where nerfed to do less damage to sub capitals at the time maybe not so bad, but that was before we had all the drone upgrades we have now and the improved bonuses on drone boats like Ishtar and the Dominix. now a Dominix can do way more damage with any type of drone and they move faster, track better and have more range.

because their damage, range, speed, hitpoints and tracking can not be enhanced and the only skills that affect them is the fighter skill and in case of a Thanatos the gallente carrier skill. This makes carriers DPS wise pathetic at best. and still only improving the raw DPS they still hit ehhh scratch that MISS as much as they always have which is a lot.

in ratting you cant use them that well as you wanna be alligned or else any interceptor is catching you without any difficulty and then the rest comes to chew you up. and while being alligned you will be out of repping range and due to the drone aggro change you will loose fighter a lot a 20 to 30 mil a piece.

so to sum up fighters on a carrier are as usefull as swim fins on a cat

2. if you change to sentry drones what lots of people did the new interceptor changes make this act pretty much in the same line as suicide What? but for the slowcat doctrine it worked very good.

drone upgrades are good and all that shizzle and they work on carriers too but the problem is that other drone boats (Ishtar, Dominix etc) have a bonus on multiple stats on the ship so the modules enhancement AND need to enhance is less then on a carrier.

specially when you look at the ominidirectional link nerf which is pretty easy to live with if you have bonus to tracking and or range like the Dominix for example but a carrier is hit harder for each drone and as it uses more drones as that is the carriers strong suit they are scr*wed harder then they deserve

then add the drone assist cap of 50 (at this moment) and the above arguments and i think its safe to assume that this wil mean the end of carriers as they are a huge of useles steel that can jump some ships up and down.

3. i fly carriers for more then 2 years and i stil dont know what the bonus of carrier on fighters is for, seriously 200% role boonus on fighters control range can someone tell me what the control range of a fighter is because i can send them to anyone in space without any issues and can use them up to 250 km on targets as i cant target further and even if i moved beyond that they would still keep fighting so what is this bonus if not a blank fill up to make it look cooler Question

4. at this point a dominix with one omnidirectional link and 3 drone damage amplifiers and 1 drone range augmentator puts out 793 DPS with ogre IIs and 751 DPS with garde IIs while a carrier gets 1000 DPS for any non thanatos carrier and 1250 DPS on thanatos but they miss so often its simply not funny so you need to use webbers and target painters making it harder to make decent fit besides a Dominix almost doing the DPS with 5 drones that cost nearly nothing then a carrier with 10 fighters that cost 20 to 30 mil each (depending on diffrent factors)

so what is the solution?
1. i think fighters need a buff on damage and a bit better tracking and speed and EHP
2. i think there should be some modules and or rigs that improve fighters DPS, speed, tracking and hitpoints.
3. omni directional link should have more scripts see this topic
4. change the cosmetic role bonus to something usefull like small buff on normal drones on gallente carrier and figure out something for the others, anyone sugestions?

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-02-20 15:21:09 UTC
Allow me to retort: No.

You're looking at carriers are offensive ships. Carriers are logistics ships that just happen to do more damage than battleships. As it stands now blobbed, spider tanked carriers are ridiculously difficult to take off the field for anything smaller than a fleet of dreadnoughts. What you're asking for is the equivalent of logistics ships being able to put out 500 dps while maintaining their current logistics abilities.

So let me reiterate: No.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2014-02-20 15:38:38 UTC
somebody help my poor niddy
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#4 - 2014-02-20 15:51:04 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
You're looking at carriers are offensive ships. Carriers are logistics ships that just happen to do more damage than battleships. As it stands now blobbed, spider tanked carriers are ridiculously difficult to take off the field for anything smaller than a fleet of dreadnoughts. What you're asking for is the equivalent of logistics ships being able to put out 500 dps while maintaining their current logistics abilities.


Carriers prefering sentries to fighters is a pretty good indication fighters are broken. Has nothing to do with carriers being offensive or not.

OP should have called the thread "buff fighters."

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation
#5 - 2014-02-20 16:43:27 UTC
While we're on the topic of buffing Carriers (or fighters) why not add a +2 Warp Core Stability. I can't understand why the super-massive ships with all of their awesomeness can be kept still by a single noob-ship w/ a meta 0 scram/disruptor. 2 or 3 should be able to for sure, but one! Let me align and initiate warp (or jump) w/ one or 2 points on me, stop with 3.

Cedric

Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#6 - 2014-02-20 18:02:31 UTC
Carriers can:

  1. Deal more damage than battleships
  2. Tank more damage than marauders in Bastion mode
  3. Rep more damage than multiple dedicated logistics cruisers
  4. Carry more cargo and ships than an orca
  5. Provide ship fitting capabilities in space
  6. Jump to cynosural fields
  7. Assign fighters to allies in a different part of the solar system
  8. Use sub-capital type drones
  9. Can fit gang links


If anything, carriers are overpowered. They certainly do not need a buff. They perform more roles than any other ship in the game with the possible exception of T3 cruisers. Compare that to their capital counterparts in the dreadnought class... Dreads have only 2 roles: shooting structures and shooting other capitals. Can you give me 1 good reason not to split carriers into two or three different ships that provide the following roles:

  1. capital drone boat
  2. capital logi
  3. transport of sub-cap ships

All of them would of course remain jump capable because they would all be capital ships, they might even get buffs to their respective roles after losing their "jack of all trades" status. Carriers may be a capital ship, but there is no reason why they should be capable of filling so many different roles. Buff carriers? No thanks.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Pew Terror
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-02-20 18:14:28 UTC
Confirming most OP ship in the game needs major buffs because random carebear doesnt wanna use a domi for ratting.
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#8 - 2014-02-20 19:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Swiftstrike1 wrote:

If anything, carriers are overpowered. They certainly do not need a buff. They perform more roles than any other ship in the game with the possible exception of T3 cruisers. Compare that to their capital counterparts in the dreadnought class... Dreads have only 2 roles: shooting structures and shooting other capitals. Can you give me 1 good reason not to split carriers into two or three different ships that provide the following roles:

  1. capital drone boat
  2. capital logi
  3. transport of sub-cap ships


Capital drone boats are motherships. They do capital sized amounts of damage. Carriers do battleship damage. A carrier is not really used for its damage, except when you're replacing battleships with carriers 1:1. Its important for a carrier to have both logi and drones for its role as capital support for subcaps. Triage takes away the drones anyway. A carrier is a big vulnerable target, and this is not mitigated by the carrier's drones. You seem to be making the argument that carriers are OP because of their versatility, when most of the conversation seems to be that they're OP in the specific situation of slowcat fleets. I think the versatility is fine, but the unlimited synergy of massed RR is an issue that's worth a discussion.

A carrier cannot carry anything near what an orca can. An orca have over 100k m3 more capacity than a carrier in exchange for a carrier being able to fit a couple more crusiers or a BC or two.

Pew Terror wrote:
Confirming most OP ship in the game needs major buffs because random carebear doesnt wanna use a domi for ratting.

I agree this is not a reason to buff carriers, but it would be nice for fighters to not be completely inferior to everything.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
#9 - 2014-02-21 16:02:29 UTC
I didn't even read your thread, but I think you should get another ratting ship.

On the other hand, carriers will be fixed after the drone overhaul and capital tiercide (soon)
Torijace
The Upside Down
#10 - 2014-02-21 20:15:09 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:

If anything, carriers are overpowered. They certainly do not need a buff. They perform more roles than any other ship in the game with the possible exception of T3 cruisers. Compare that to their capital counterparts in the dreadnought class... Dreads have only 2 roles: shooting structures and shooting other capitals. Can you give me 1 good reason not to split carriers into two or three different ships that provide the following roles:

  1. capital drone boat
  2. capital logi
  3. transport of sub-cap ships

All of them would of course remain jump capable because they would all be capital ships, they might even get buffs to their respective roles after losing their "jack of all trades" status. Carriers may be a capital ship, but there is no reason why they should be capable of filling so many different roles. Buff carriers? No thanks.


This pretty much says it. though i say the transportation of sub-caps while people are in them would one of the best ways to get small scale alliance into null sec (currently you need a titan to deal with ship logistics)

If you allowed ships to dock on capitals and then removed jump bridging from titans and null sec would be a much better place.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#11 - 2014-02-21 20:35:05 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Capital drone boats are motherships. They do capital sized amounts of damage.

But only to capitals. Normal carriers can carry "drones" as opposed to fighters and bombers. They have vastly superior damage application against subcapitals.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#12 - 2014-02-21 20:47:28 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Capital drone boats are motherships. They do capital sized amounts of damage.

But only to capitals. Normal carriers can carry "drones" as opposed to fighters and bombers. They have vastly superior damage application against subcapitals.


It doesn't matter that supercarriers are worse at shooting subcaps (does anyone really have a problem with this?). Carriers are still only doing battleship amounts of damage (arguable, depending on how little tank/rr you care for on your carriers).

Also, the reason that carriers are using drones and supercaps are bad at shooting subcaps are the same. Because fighters suck.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

unidenify
Deaf Armada
Deaf and Daft
#13 - 2014-02-21 22:14:25 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Capital drone boats are motherships. They do capital sized amounts of damage.

But only to capitals. Normal carriers can carry "drones" as opposed to fighters and bombers. They have vastly superior damage application against subcapitals.


It doesn't matter that supercarriers are worse at shooting subcaps (does anyone really have a problem with this?). Carriers are still only doing battleship amounts of damage (arguable, depending on how little tank/rr you care for on your carriers).

Also, the reason that carriers are using drones and supercaps are bad at shooting subcaps are the same. Because fighters suck.


may I ask question here?

why you feel that Carrier should able to do damage against sub-capital without support?

correct me if I am wrong, I took that capital turret/missile have very terrible damage application against sub-capital target for game balance.

if so, then why Carrier should get exemption?
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#14 - 2014-02-21 23:03:59 UTC
unidenify wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Capital drone boats are motherships. They do capital sized amounts of damage.

But only to capitals. Normal carriers can carry "drones" as opposed to fighters and bombers. They have vastly superior damage application against subcapitals.


It doesn't matter that supercarriers are worse at shooting subcaps (does anyone really have a problem with this?). Carriers are still only doing battleship amounts of damage (arguable, depending on how little tank/rr you care for on your carriers).

Also, the reason that carriers are using drones and supercaps are bad at shooting subcaps are the same. Because fighters suck.


may I ask question here?

why you feel that Carrier should able to do damage against sub-capital without support?

correct me if I am wrong, I took that capital turret/missile have very terrible damage application against sub-capital target for game balance.

if so, then why Carrier should get exemption?


because a carrier doesn't have turrets and a carrier is like a real life aircraft carrier versatile. if its anything less then that its a floating pinata

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#15 - 2014-02-21 23:12:17 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:

because a carrier doesn't have turrets and a carrier is like a real life aircraft carrier versatile. if its anything less then that its a floating pinata


Where does super carrier figure into this?
And why is or ok for every other capital ship to be "a floating pinata" ?

A dread outside siege does around same DPS as a carrier, with shorter range and ALOT lower tracking.
On top of that, the dread cant spider tank like carrier does due to using high slots for dmg
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2014-02-21 23:17:13 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
because a carrier doesn't have turrets and a carrier is like a real life aircraft carrier versatile. if its anything less then that its a floating pinata

It is versatile i agree, but i dont see a real life carrier repping other ships in fleet or carrying other ships in its hangar, or dropping drone (jets or whatnot) that can sit in one spot and accurately hit out at amazing distances.

That being said i think the main thing that makes carriers deadly in large scale battles is their versatility. Each ship can perform almost all the necessary tasks that are normally given to specialized ships (logistics, Main fleet doctrine), so if one is lost the fleet doesn't suffer as a whole. and in my opinion they seem to have the material costs backwards fro carriers and dreads: the most useful and versatile ship is cheaper, while the simpler and more focused ship is more expensive. but that just my opinion.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#17 - 2014-02-21 23:33:11 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

because a carrier doesn't have turrets and a carrier is like a real life aircraft carrier versatile. if its anything less then that its a floating pinata


1.Where does super carrier figure into this?
And why is or ok for every other capital ship to be "a floating pinata" ?

2. A dread outside siege does around same DPS as a carrier, with shorter range and ALOT lower tracking.
On top of that, the dread cant spider tank like carrier does due to using high slots for dmg


1. because those ships are not so versatile, you cant possibly defend that you where training for a dreadnaught to do lvl 5 missions or do havens or whatever. I trained for carrier for a few reasons:
A: logistics for my ships
B: DPS and tank to do havens and or other sites in null sec
C: ability to RR corpies, towers etc

2. true but it can do a lot more DPS when its in siege and its a ship that needs support, a carrier never had the issue of needing support, for solo stuff like ratting.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#18 - 2014-02-22 00:13:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Itago Gemulus
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

because a carrier doesn't have turrets and a carrier is like a real life aircraft carrier versatile. if its anything less then that its a floating pinata


1.Where does super carrier figure into this?
And why is or ok for every other capital ship to be "a floating pinata" ?

2. A dread outside siege does around same DPS as a carrier, with shorter range and ALOT lower tracking.
On top of that, the dread cant spider tank like carrier does due to using high slots for dmg


1. because those ships are not so versatile, you cant possibly defend that you where training for a dreadnaught to do lvl 5 missions or do havens or whatever. I trained for carrier for a few reasons:
A: logistics for my ships
B: DPS and tank to do havens and or other sites in null sec
C: ability to RR corpies, towers etc

2. true but it can do a lot more DPS when its in siege and its a ship that needs support, a carrier never had the issue of needing support, for solo stuff like ratting.


Your reason to train for a carrier is the same reasons a carrier is to good!
Each of those 3 are well with in reason for any ship to perform, when you have the same ship doing all 3 of these and on top of that beeing the best for all 3 is where something went wrong

Dreads underperforming compared to carriers just means that dreads need a BIG buff or carriers need an equaly big nerf...
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#19 - 2014-02-22 00:28:25 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

because a carrier doesn't have turrets and a carrier is like a real life aircraft carrier versatile. if its anything less then that its a floating pinata


1.Where does super carrier figure into this?
And why is or ok for every other capital ship to be "a floating pinata" ?

2. A dread outside siege does around same DPS as a carrier, with shorter range and ALOT lower tracking.
On top of that, the dread cant spider tank like carrier does due to using high slots for dmg


1. because those ships are not so versatile, you cant possibly defend that you where training for a dreadnaught to do lvl 5 missions or do havens or whatever. I trained for carrier for a few reasons:
A: logistics for my ships
B: DPS and tank to do havens and or other sites in null sec
C: ability to RR corpies, towers etc

2. true but it can do a lot more DPS when its in siege and its a ship that needs support, a carrier never had the issue of needing support, for solo stuff like ratting.


Your reason to train for a carrier is the same reasons a carrier is to good!
Each of those 3 are well with in reason for any ship to perform, when you have the same ship doing all 3 of these and on top of that beeing the best for all 3 is where something went wrong

Dreads underperforming compared to carriers just means that dreads need a BIG buff or carriers need an equaly big nerf...


no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you realy fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesnt make it a super awesome logi ship

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#20 - 2014-02-22 00:40:29 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:

no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you realy fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesnt make it a super awesome logi ship


How does this compare to a dread.
Moros does 1356 DPS with all 5, meta guns and normal anitmatter
Archon does 1067 DPS with 10 drones
Bouth using 4 dmg mods

With this they bout have same number of low for tank (3 in this case, but changing from tank to gank will ahve same effect on bouth ships). Biggest diffrence is that the archon still have 5 high free to RR/cap chain. Add 4 DCU and they bouth have 1 free high slot but the Archon does 1494 DPS
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