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buff carriers (not supers)

Author
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2014-02-22 00:53:29 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you really fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesn't make it a super awesome logi ship

disagree. The old pantheon carrier fits could still perform all the useful functions of a carrier at once. and even if you sacrificed a couple highs for DCU you could still perform logistics very well. 1 capital RR is roughly about as much repair as 2 fully skilled logistics ships running all mods, and the carrier can run those reps for much longer. The fact that current slowcat fleets do perform both functions well shows how a carrier can perform all its jobs well at the same time.

While in comparison to full repair oriented carrier, it doesn't perform as well, it still out-performs any other logistic/drone ship in the game at the same time. Thats one of the reasons they are so popular right now.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#22 - 2014-02-22 00:59:50 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you realy fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesnt make it a super awesome logi ship


How does this compare to a dread.
Moros does 1356 DPS with all 5, meta guns and normal anitmatter
Archon does 1067 DPS with 10 drones
Bouth using 4 dmg mods

With this they bout have same number of low for tank (3 in this case, but changing from tank to gank will ahve same effect on bouth ships). Biggest diffrence is that the archon still have 5 high free to RR/cap chain. Add 4 DCU and they bouth have 1 free high slot but the Archon does 1494 DPS


they compare as apples are comparable with oranges they are both fruit and that's as far as it goes. they are built for complete different reasons

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#23 - 2014-02-22 01:09:26 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you really fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesn't make it a super awesome logi ship

disagree. The old pantheon carrier fits could still perform all the useful functions of a carrier at once. and even if you sacrificed a couple highs for DCU you could still perform logistics very well. 1 capital RR is roughly about as much repair as 2 fully skilled logistics ships running all mods, and the carrier can run those reps for much longer. The fact that current slowcat fleets do perform both functions well shows how a carrier can perform all its jobs well at the same time.

While in comparison to full repair oriented carrier, it doesn't perform as well, it still out-performs any other logistic/drone ship in the game at the same time. Thats one of the reasons they are so popular right now.


bullshit, the only reason why slowcats are so good is because of big nr`s of slowcats that focus fire, DPS wise one slowcat is pathetic at best. But that doesnt matter because they work with big groups. that makes them strong 250 RR domis are also very effective. FFS they did the same thing with gila`s

BTW a dominix has way more DPS and also all high slots free then a slowcat and way better tracking and optimal so you really dont see the complete picture

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2014-02-22 01:37:43 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you really fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesn't make it a super awesome logi ship

disagree. The old pantheon carrier fits could still perform all the useful functions of a carrier at once. and even if you sacrificed a couple highs for DCU you could still perform logistics very well. 1 capital RR is roughly about as much repair as 2 fully skilled logistics ships running all mods, and the carrier can run those reps for much longer. The fact that current slowcat fleets do perform both functions well shows how a carrier can perform all its jobs well at the same time.

While in comparison to full repair oriented carrier, it doesn't perform as well, it still out-performs any other logistic/drone ship in the game at the same time. Thats one of the reasons they are so popular right now.


bullshit, the only reason why slowcats are so good is because of big nr`s of slowcats that focus fire, DPS wise one slowcat is pathetic at best. But that doesnt matter because they work with big groups. that makes them strong 250 RR domis are also very effective. FFS they did the same thing with gila`s

BTW a dominix has way more DPS and also all high slots free then a slowcat and way better tracking and optimal so you really dont see the complete picture

Why are slowcats popular? They can tank 3-4x better than the Best fit BS, They can dish out dps that is A little above the average BS at much better ranges, and they can RR as much as 4x (assuming normal 2 rep set up) as a perfect logi for an extended period of time and at a much greater distance than a RR domi (the only thing the domi really has going for it is much longer range). All of these can be done at the same time, on the same ship. It's kinda funny since when I first heard of how they worked, I realized the fit wasn't that much different at all from my ratting fit.

And while domis may have better tracking and range, the claim that slowcat DPS is pathetic compared to slowcat dps is wrong. a fully damage fit Domi (to include railguns) is just a little over the damage of a 9 drone archon (not everyone has carrier 5) with 3 damage mods. And while in that set up a domi has 1 highslot open, an archon has 5 slots to play with, whether for drone control mods or capital RR.

I'd say the only thing the domi has going for it when similarily fit for the same task as a alowcat is its sentry range.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#25 - 2014-02-22 01:49:26 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you realy fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesnt make it a super awesome logi ship


How does this compare to a dread.
Moros does 1356 DPS with all 5, meta guns and normal anitmatter
Archon does 1067 DPS with 10 drones
Bouth using 4 dmg mods

With this they bout have same number of low for tank (3 in this case, but changing from tank to gank will ahve same effect on bouth ships). Biggest diffrence is that the archon still have 5 high free to RR/cap chain. Add 4 DCU and they bouth have 1 free high slot but the Archon does 1494 DPS


you cant compare them, are you completely unable to read? because i just explained it to ya

but if you insist to compare them (which is lame as both ships are as comparable as apples and oranges)
1. archon does NOT have DMG mods for its fighters which blow to begin with but i know you mean the drone damage amplifiers.
2. you use gallente sentry drones which have an optimal range that is pathetic.
3. a dread is BUILT to work in a team where it is protected and NEEDS to be in siege and then the DPS increases with factor 4,5

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#26 - 2014-02-22 01:54:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellendras Silver
Rowells wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you really fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesn't make it a super awesome logi ship

disagree. The old pantheon carrier fits could still perform all the useful functions of a carrier at once. and even if you sacrificed a couple highs for DCU you could still perform logistics very well. 1 capital RR is roughly about as much repair as 2 fully skilled logistics ships running all mods, and the carrier can run those reps for much longer. The fact that current slowcat fleets do perform both functions well shows how a carrier can perform all its jobs well at the same time.

While in comparison to full repair oriented carrier, it doesn't perform as well, it still out-performs any other logistic/drone ship in the game at the same time. Thats one of the reasons they are so popular right now.


bullshit, the only reason why slowcats are so good is because of big nr`s of slowcats that focus fire, DPS wise one slowcat is pathetic at best. But that doesnt matter because they work with big groups. that makes them strong 250 RR domis are also very effective. FFS they did the same thing with gila`s

BTW a dominix has way more DPS and also all high slots free then a slowcat and way better tracking and optimal so you really dont see the complete picture

Why are slowcats popular? They can tank 3-4x better than the Best fit BS, They can dish out dps that is A little above the average BS at much better ranges, and they can RR as much as 4x (assuming normal 2 rep set up) as a perfect logi for an extended period of time and at a much greater distance than a RR domi (the only thing the domi really has going for it is much longer range). All of these can be done at the same time, on the same ship. It's kinda funny since when I first heard of how they worked, I realized the fit wasn't that much different at all from my ratting fit.

And while domis may have better tracking and range, the claim that slowcat DPS is pathetic compared to slowcat dps is wrong. a fully damage fit Domi (to include railguns) is just a little over the damage of a 9 drone archon (not everyone has carrier 5) with 3 damage mods. And while in that set up a domi has 1 highslot open, an archon has 5 slots to play with, whether for drone control mods or capital RR.

I'd say the only thing the domi has going for it when similarily fit for the same task as a alowcat is its sentry range.


ofc they tank better then a battleship its a capital ship, suprise suprise a battleship tanks better then a battlecruiser! is that strange? no ofc not

you state that a domi has more DPS then a slowcat but you don't think that is low DPS, right Shocked

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2014-02-22 02:07:51 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:


ofc they tank better then a battleship its a capital ship, suprise suprise a battleship tanks better then a battlecruiser! is that strange? no ofc not

you state that a domi has more DPS then a slowcat but you don't think that is low DPS, right Shocked

Yes i agree that the dps of an archon is less, though not by much (10% more at best, and thats including railguns. Without them any carrier can out-do a domi) and by no means pathetic. And my point with the tanking was referring to the statement that slowcats were only popular because of their focus fire.

I was originally trying to show how a carrier can perform all of its tasks well at the same time. Which contradicts what you said:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you really fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesn't make it a super awesome logi ship


Which I have shown is untrue.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#28 - 2014-02-22 02:14:56 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:


ofc they tank better then a battleship its a capital ship, suprise suprise a battleship tanks better then a battlecruiser! is that strange? no ofc not

you state that a domi has more DPS then a slowcat but you don't think that is low DPS, right Shocked

Yes i agree that the dps of an archon is less, though not by much (10% more at best, and thats including railguns. Without them any carrier can out-do a domi) and by no means pathetic. And my point with the tanking was referring to the statement that slowcats were only popular because of their focus fire.

I was originally trying to show how a carrier can perform all of its tasks well at the same time. Which contradicts what you said:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you really fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesn't make it a super awesome logi ship


Which I have shown is untrue.


no you THINK you showed that, please make a case because all i can do is rep 1 ship or structure, so if more ships need reps i must switch where a dedicated logi ship can spread its reps, i can do that on my carrier aswell but its hard to get it cap stable so you said run longer then logi i think not, its possible sure but with a paper thin tank and hardly DPS.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2014-02-22 02:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Ellendras Silver wrote:
no you THINK you showed that, please make a case because all i can do is rep 1 ship or structure, so if more ships need reps i must switch where a dedicated logi ship can spread its reps, i can do that on my carrier as well but its hard to get it cap stable so you said run longer then logi i think not, its possible sure but with a paper thin tank and hardly DPS.

Don't forget, a carrier is still technically a logistics ship too. A carrier can run its reps longer. whereas a logi ship will burn through its cap in 30-50 seconds at best whereas a barebones carrier (no fittings other than reps) has anywhere from 2-3 minutes. if i were to fill all the highs with repair mods and run them all on the same ship i could do it longer than a logi ship. At that point im repairing approx. 7 logi ships worth from one ship and doing it for longer. And at the same time i can launch combat drones or even repair drones without problem. And why cant a carrier spread its reps? Is there some rule i've been breaking? And I have never seen any logi ship run all mods cap stable (without cap chain) so I don't see why thats an issue. And again, the dps is nothing to laugh at. anywhere from 700-1000 depending on which drones you use, skills, etc. And paper thin tank? Compred to other fleet ships no. to other capitals? yes. Carriers have always tanked less than other capitals and thats another reason why the spider tanking is so important. When it comes up against sub-cap fleets it's a very different story.

And again, all this can be done at the same time, in one neatly armored/shielded package.

Now i will say this: i hate slowcats. I want my old close range BS brawls back again.
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2014-02-22 03:01:00 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you realy fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesnt make it a super awesome logi ship


How does this compare to a dread.
Moros does 1356 DPS with all 5, meta guns and normal anitmatter
Archon does 1067 DPS with 10 drones
Bouth using 4 dmg mods

With this they bout have same number of low for tank (3 in this case, but changing from tank to gank will ahve same effect on bouth ships). Biggest diffrence is that the archon still have 5 high free to RR/cap chain. Add 4 DCU and they bouth have 1 free high slot but the Archon does 1494 DPS



Moros does 1356 damage with meta II guns (there are no capital meta V) OUT OF SIEGE....which is a rather important distinction, a Moros with a T2 siege module crests 12,000 DPS in siege mode.

You are also missing that you need 4 DDA IIs and about 3/4 OMNIs to apply that sort of damage, Gardes are pretty short range. That 1066 number is 10 drones with 4 DDAs, and carrier V to launch that many drones.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#31 - 2014-02-22 10:03:08 UTC
Onictus wrote:

Moros does 1356 damage with meta II guns (there are no capital meta V) OUT OF SIEGE....which is a rather important distinction, a Moros with a T2 siege module crests 12,000 DPS in siege mode.

You are also missing that you need 4 DDA IIs and about 3/4 OMNIs to apply that sort of damage, Gardes are pretty short range. That 1066 number is 10 drones with 4 DDAs, and carrier V to launch that many drones.


Im not missing that i need 4 DDA II to do that dmg, its the same number of dmg mods a moros need to do 1356.
Archon have higher tracking onthe Sentries, and if yuo look REALY close at it, 30+12km range vs 14375+31250 for the moros (2x optimal)

So naturaly the Moros need 3/4 TC if not more to apply its dmg since it have lower range than sentries that need 3-4 OMNIs.

A sieged dread can also not recieve RR like the carrier can, and therefor its considered suicide to siege in a big battle (ofc its done, who would fly a dread with without siege). Nerf the carrier to where it needs to use triage to outperform subcapitals (logistics) for repping power just like the dread need to siege to outdmg a battleship!
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#32 - 2014-02-22 12:18:59 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Moros does 1356 damage with meta II guns (there are no capital meta V) OUT OF SIEGE....which is a rather important distinction, a Moros with a T2 siege module crests 12,000 DPS in siege mode.

You are also missing that you need 4 DDA IIs and about 3/4 OMNIs to apply that sort of damage, Gardes are pretty short range. That 1066 number is 10 drones with 4 DDAs, and carrier V to launch that many drones.


1. Im not missing that i need 4 DDA II to do that dmg, its the same number of dmg mods a moros need to do 1356.
Archon have higher tracking onthe Sentries, and if yuo look REALY close at it, 30+12km range vs 14375+31250 for the moros (2x optimal)

2. So naturaly the Moros need 3/4 TC if not more to apply its dmg since it have lower range than sentries that need 3-4 OMNIs.

3. A sieged dread can also not recieve RR like the carrier can, and therefor its considered suicide to siege in a big battle (ofc its done, who would fly a dread with without siege). Nerf the carrier to where it needs to use triage to outperform subcapitals (logistics) for repping power just like the dread need to siege to outdmg a battleship!


1. i explained it allready you cant compare dread with carrier but whatever. the range on the sentries is crap so you need 3omni directional links to compensate for that if you fly archon you only have 1 mid left if thanatos 2 and 4 DDA IIs is tank crippling and add the 3 omni directionals that you need and you dont have room to fit a decent tank, and no cap recharge what so ever. so your in a 1,5 billion isk floating pinata YEAH

2. this all depends on the target, as a dread is only for structure bashing and capital fights its tracking realy aint that bad, but if you compare it to a carrier yeah it does but what do you wanna target in this comparrison????? what are we going to shoot ????

3. a triaged carrier cant receive RR either and it cant use a single drone so the carrier is very much dead in the water where the dread can still shoot. carriers really dont need a nerf

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#33 - 2014-02-22 12:26:45 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
no you THINK you showed that, please make a case because all i can do is rep 1 ship or structure, so if more ships need reps i must switch where a dedicated logi ship can spread its reps, i can do that on my carrier as well but its hard to get it cap stable so you said run longer then logi i think not, its possible sure but with a paper thin tank and hardly DPS.

Don't forget, a carrier is still technically a logistics ship too. A carrier can run its reps longer. whereas a logi ship will burn through its cap in 30-50 seconds at best whereas a barebones carrier (no fittings other than reps) has anywhere from 2-3 minutes. if i were to fill all the highs with repair mods and run them all on the same ship i could do it longer than a logi ship. At that point im repairing approx. 7 logi ships worth from one ship and doing it for longer. And at the same time i can launch combat drones or even repair drones without problem. And why cant a carrier spread its reps? Is there some rule i've been breaking? And I have never seen any logi ship run all mods cap stable (without cap chain) so I don't see why thats an issue. And again, the dps is nothing to laugh at. anywhere from 700-1000 depending on which drones you use, skills, etc. And paper thin tank? Compred to other fleet ships no. to other capitals? yes. Carriers have always tanked less than other capitals and thats another reason why the spider tanking is so important. When it comes up against sub-cap fleets it's a very different story.

And again, all this can be done at the same time, in one neatly armored/shielded package.

Now i will say this: i hate slowcats. I want my old close range BS brawls back again.


where do you get the crazy idea that a carrier can use its reps longer??? its not hard to get a armor logi cap stable shield logi is a bit more challenging i think but lets go to carrier, if i fit like above i dont have room to fit tank and decent cap regen and i will be crying for cap a lot in combat situation.

i said i could not spread reps because i only had one rep, unless there is a secret button that lets you divide the reps from a single RR module over 2 targets, if so please tell me Shocked

so it is obviously that a carrier can do multiple things (as it should) but if you want to do one of the tasks good there isnt that much room to do the other properly, that is ok. what isnt ok is that fighters blow i trained fighters and bombers for 3,6 mil SP and they are useless i am better off with sentries in every case except when i move but fighters die way too easy due to drone aggro change and are expensive to replace

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#34 - 2014-02-22 12:45:57 UTC
[quote=Ellendras Silver
1. i explained it allready you cant compare dread with carrier but whatever. the range on the sentries is crap so you need 3omni directional links to compensate for that if you fly archon you only have 1 mid left if thanatos 2 and 4 DDA IIs is tank crippling and add the 3 omni directionals that you need and you dont have room to fit a decent tank, and no cap recharge what so ever. so your in a 1,5 billion isk floating pinata YEAH

2. this all depends on the target, as a dread is only for structure bashing and capital fights its tracking realy aint that bad, but if you compare it to a carrier yeah it does but what do you wanna target in this comparrison????? what are we going to shoot ????

3. a triaged carrier cant receive RR either and it cant use a single drone so the carrier is very much dead in the water where the dread can still shoot. carriers really dont need a nerf[/quote]

1. If you wont compared a carrier to the only other capital (not super capital like mother ship and titan) what do you compare it to?
a. Logistic cruisers, other than signature radius the carrier is miles ahead on everything a logistic carrier can do
b. dominix, behind on sig radius and sentry range (max dps domi vs carrier with DCUs)

2. Sure it depends on some on the target, but sentry having higher optimal and comparable dmg to a unsieged dread, meaning the dread HAVE to siege to do the ONE thing its good at where a carrier dont have to triage to be usefull.

3. sure a triaged carrier cant get RR, but it can however be a better logistic ship than anything less than a triage carrier without using triage. This means a non triage carrier does battleship level of demage @ battleship ranges with better RR than logistic cruisers. Ofc with cruiser or better tracking.


Its not 1 thing that makes the carrier to good, it doing many roles so good at the same time. Needing to triage for RR ability above normal logistic cruisers would go a long way (so you eitehr RR or do dmg)
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#35 - 2014-02-22 12:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellendras Silver
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver
1. i explained it allready you cant compare dread with carrier but whatever. the range on the sentries is crap so you need 3omni directional links to compensate for that if you fly archon you only have 1 mid left if thanatos 2 and 4 DDA IIs is tank crippling and add the 3 omni directionals that you need and you dont have room to fit a decent tank, and no cap recharge what so ever. so your in a 1,5 billion isk floating pinata YEAH

2. this all depends on the target, as a dread is only for structure bashing and capital fights its tracking realy aint that bad, but if you compare it to a carrier yeah it does but what do you wanna target in this comparrison????? what are we going to shoot ????

3. a triaged carrier cant receive RR either and it cant use a single drone so the carrier is very much dead in the water where the dread can still shoot. carriers really dont need a nerf

[quote wrote:

1. If you wont compared a carrier to the only other capital (not super capital like mother ship and titan) what do you compare it to?
a. Logistic cruisers, other than signature radius the carrier is miles ahead on everything a logistic carrier can do
b. dominix, behind on sig radius and sentry range (max dps domi vs carrier with DCUs)

2. Sure it depends on some on the target, but sentry having higher optimal and comparable dmg to a unsieged dread, meaning the dread HAVE to siege to do the ONE thing its good at where a carrier dont have to triage to be usefull.

3. sure a triaged carrier cant get RR, but it can however be a better logistic ship than anything less than a triage carrier without using triage. This means a non triage carrier does battleship level of demage @ battleship ranges with better RR than logistic cruisers. Ofc with cruiser or better tracking.


Its not 1 thing that makes the carrier to good, it doing many roles so good at the same time. Needing to triage for RR ability above normal logistic cruisers would go a long way (so you eitehr RR or do dmg)


1. well that is the point you cant compare it to anything same goes for the dread, titan and even super
a. you forget that besides the signature it is a floating pinata right? where a shield logi cruiser can move to or away fast and with great agility
b. you really wanna compare a BS with a carrier? really?

2. and this is where you are wrong, because a dread isnt supposed to be alone so it needs to siege to justify its enormous DPS.

3. yes but it cant do anything else at that point, can it? and if its not in triage it cant do all the tasks that well simultaneously so whats the problem?

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#36 - 2014-02-22 13:24:00 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver
1. i explained it allready you cant compare dread with carrier but whatever. the range on the sentries is crap so you need 3omni directional links to compensate for that if you fly archon you only have 1 mid left if thanatos 2 and 4 DDA IIs is tank crippling and add the 3 omni directionals that you need and you dont have room to fit a decent tank, and no cap recharge what so ever. so your in a 1,5 billion isk floating pinata YEAH

2. this all depends on the target, as a dread is only for structure bashing and capital fights its tracking realy aint that bad, but if you compare it to a carrier yeah it does but what do you wanna target in this comparrison????? what are we going to shoot ????

3. a triaged carrier cant receive RR either and it cant use a single drone so the carrier is very much dead in the water where the dread can still shoot. carriers really dont need a nerf

[quote wrote:

1. If you wont compared a carrier to the only other capital (not super capital like mother ship and titan) what do you compare it to?
a. Logistic cruisers, other than signature radius the carrier is miles ahead on everything a logistic carrier can do
b. dominix, behind on sig radius and sentry range (max dps domi vs carrier with DCUs)

2. Sure it depends on some on the target, but sentry having higher optimal and comparable dmg to a unsieged dread, meaning the dread HAVE to siege to do the ONE thing its good at where a carrier dont have to triage to be usefull.

3. sure a triaged carrier cant get RR, but it can however be a better logistic ship than anything less than a triage carrier without using triage. This means a non triage carrier does battleship level of demage @ battleship ranges with better RR than logistic cruisers. Ofc with cruiser or better tracking.


Its not 1 thing that makes the carrier to good, it doing many roles so good at the same time. Needing to triage for RR ability above normal logistic cruisers would go a long way (so you eitehr RR or do dmg)


1. well that is the point you cant compare it to anything same goes for the dread, titan and even super
a. you forget that besides the signature it is a floating pinata right? where a shield logi cruiser can move to or away fast and with great agility
b. you really wanna compare a BS with a carrier? really?

2. and this is where you are wrong, because a dread isnt supposed to be alone so it needs to siege to justify its enormous DPS.

3. yes but it cant do anything else at that point, can it? and if its not in triage it cant do all the tasks that well simultaneously so whats the problem?


1. Why cant you compare each of the roles a carrier can do, to other ships that can do the same role. is it that the carrier does so many roles so good that its not a fair comparison?

2. Where a dread NEED siege to be usefull, the carrier is still the best logistic ship without triage (only beten by triage carrier).
Make the carrier need triage to be usefull as RR support and they are on the same level as dreads, only with a choice to use sentries for longer range/higher tracking dmg when compared to non sieged dread.

3. Sure it cant do other than RR while triaged, just as the dread cant do anything else when sieged (or unsieged for that sake)
Outside of triage its not as good RR ship, but its still only triage carrier and super carrier thats actualy better (SC may be on same level as non triage carrier, they are way out of my price range so no experience there)


When out of triage it should be decent for many roles, but the total package is still to much when you compared it to any other ship in the game (maybe not super carrier, but thats still technicaly carrier)

Nerf carrier, buff dread or nerf capital RR modules (with triage boost to current triage levels)
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#37 - 2014-02-22 13:38:45 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Ellendras Silver
1. i explained it allready you cant compare dread with carrier but whatever. the range on the sentries is crap so you need 3omni directional links to compensate for that if you fly archon you only have 1 mid left if thanatos 2 and 4 DDA IIs is tank crippling and add the 3 omni directionals that you need and you dont have room to fit a decent tank, and no cap recharge what so ever. so your in a 1,5 billion isk floating pinata YEAH

2. this all depends on the target, as a dread is only for structure bashing and capital fights its tracking realy aint that bad, but if you compare it to a carrier yeah it does but what do you wanna target in this comparrison????? what are we going to shoot ????

3. a triaged carrier cant receive RR either and it cant use a single drone so the carrier is very much dead in the water where the dread can still shoot. carriers really dont need a nerf

[quote wrote:

1. If you wont compared a carrier to the only other capital (not super capital like mother ship and titan) what do you compare it to?
a. Logistic cruisers, other than signature radius the carrier is miles ahead on everything a logistic carrier can do
b. dominix, behind on sig radius and sentry range (max dps domi vs carrier with DCUs)

2. Sure it depends on some on the target, but sentry having higher optimal and comparable dmg to a unsieged dread, meaning the dread HAVE to siege to do the ONE thing its good at where a carrier dont have to triage to be usefull.

3. sure a triaged carrier cant get RR, but it can however be a better logistic ship than anything less than a triage carrier without using triage. This means a non triage carrier does battleship level of demage @ battleship ranges with better RR than logistic cruisers. Ofc with cruiser or better tracking.


Its not 1 thing that makes the carrier to good, it doing many roles so good at the same time. Needing to triage for RR ability above normal logistic cruisers would go a long way (so you eitehr RR or do dmg)


1. well that is the point you cant compare it to anything same goes for the dread, titan and even super
a. you forget that besides the signature it is a floating pinata right? where a shield logi cruiser can move to or away fast and with great agility
b. you really wanna compare a BS with a carrier? really?

2. and this is where you are wrong, because a dread isnt supposed to be alone so it needs to siege to justify its enormous DPS.

3. yes but it cant do anything else at that point, can it? and if its not in triage it cant do all the tasks that well simultaneously so whats the problem?


1. Why cant you compare each of the roles a carrier can do, to other ships that can do the same role. is it that the carrier does so many roles so good that its not a fair comparison?

2. Where a dread NEED siege to be usefull, the carrier is still the best logistic ship without triage (only beten by triage carrier).
Make the carrier need triage to be usefull as RR support and they are on the same level as dreads, only with a choice to use sentries for longer range/higher tracking dmg when compared to non sieged dread.

3. Sure it cant do other than RR while triaged, just as the dread cant do anything else when sieged (or unsieged for that sake)
Outside of triage its not as good RR ship, but its still only triage carrier and super carrier thats actualy better (SC may be on same level as non triage carrier, they are way out of my price range so no experience there)


When out of triage it should be decent for many roles, but the total package is still to much when you compared it to any other ship in the game (maybe not super carrier, but thats still technicaly carrier)

Nerf carrier, buff dread or nerf capital RR modules (with triage boost to current triage levels)


are you deaf, blind and stupid? because i explained it more then once to you, but again

1. you cant compare them because they are different on too many things. a logi ship has agility, speed where a carrier is a floating brick. i also explained it can do more then one role but none too well, or one role really well but that was it. and its by defenition not a fair comparrison as they are completly different. get it in your head!

2. a dread NEEDS to be in a fleet because it is not a ship to solo in. and while in siege they are more then capable to survive the siege if in proper fleet ofc.

3. very depending on the situation, there are enough situations where a few logi cruisers is far better then a single carrier, again making it clear you cant compare apples and oranges.

nerf carrier and it will be useless, they suffered enough. i do admit that the nerf (done because of dreads one shotting BSs) was a bit hard, and i am ok if they would get a bit of tracking and an extra max target or 2 but other then that they dont need a buff i think (admitting i am not a dread expert)

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Rendiff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-02-22 14:22:39 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Carriers can:

  1. Deal more damage than battleships
  2. Tank more damage than marauders in Bastion mode
  3. Rep more damage than multiple dedicated logistics cruisers
  4. Carry more cargo and ships than an orca
  5. Provide ship fitting capabilities in space
  6. Jump to cynosural fields
  7. Assign fighters to allies in a different part of the solar system
  8. Use sub-capital type drones
  9. Can fit gang links


If anything, carriers are overpowered. They certainly do not need a buff. They perform more roles than any other ship in the game with the possible exception of T3 cruisers. Compare that to their capital counterparts in the dreadnought class... Dreads have only 2 roles: shooting structures and shooting other capitals. Can you give me 1 good reason not to split carriers into two or three different ships that provide the following roles:

  1. capital drone boat
  2. capital logi
  3. transport of sub-cap ships

All of them would of course remain jump capable because they would all be capital ships, they might even get buffs to their respective roles after losing their "jack of all trades" status. Carriers may be a capital ship, but there is no reason why they should be capable of filling so many different roles. Buff carriers? No thanks.



Can we do this?
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#39 - 2014-02-22 14:28:21 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:


1. Sure its a floating BRICK, with insane repping power. Not doing any roles well, kinda say logistic cruisers are crap for RR and battleships are not to good at dealing demage (bouth of these a carrier can do same/better at the same time)

2. Dreads need to be in fleet since it cant hit anything smaller than caps (or something with ALOT of web/painters on). Siege should be like carrier triage, either usefull without it, or needed for bouth classes to function properly.

3. a few logi (how many?) beeing better then a SINGLE carrier, add a 2nd or 3rd carrier and you need MANY logi to better.
ONE capital remote armor rep is about equal to 4x meta 4 armor reps, and one capital meta is about equal to 4x T2 armor reps. So for repping power you need 4 logistic cruiser for each remote armor rep you fit on a carrier

A nerf to one of its roles, or its ability to do several at the same time wont make it useless just less desirable than it is today.
Carrier should still be the best RR ship when triaged, and it could still be able to deal the same dmg as today but at the cost of its RR ability out of triage
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#40 - 2014-02-22 15:32:02 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
no because it can only do one of those tasks good enough at a time, if you realy fit for something you can not or hardly do the other tasks, that is called balance. sure i can sacrifice one DCU to fit a RR but that doesnt make it a super awesome logi ship

Your reasoning might be valid if carriers didnt have the ability to use each other to refit in space. Since they do have that ability however, your reasoning is not valid. Every single poster on this thread (apart from you, OP) thinks that carriers need a nerf, not a buff.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

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