EVE General Discussion

Well, anyone who's wrong, in any case.

Yes. People engaging in for-profit gameplay in a PVP game are sociopaths.

Orca can get up to 280k base Omni EHP and have even resist spread.... Dunno why people think 170k is the upper limit...

This probably belongs in F&I, but a good place to start would be by giving the solo industrial pilots a tactical response or two besides "overheat and hope CONCORD shows up in time".

It's obviously incredibly hard to balance, since Eve doesn't hand-hold by artificially limiting the number of gankers that can gang up on a solo pilot - but we can't dismiss the solo pilot's predicament with "he should have brought support", etc, because the game would become incredibly dull and grind to a halt if nobody moved without a full escort. That's bad design, and it ignores alpha-strike.

So how do we keep space dangerous and interesting, but allow the solo 'defenseless' ship pilot (miner, hauler, etc), a response that might actually affect the outcome of an attack?

My initial inclination is to give the soloist more options to control his own circumstances - things they could influence regardless of how many people showed up. The claim that haulers shouldn't make themselves a target by hauling a load that is too valuable has some validity to it, so why not give industrialists the power to "weaponize" the economics of a gank?

I'd like to see a module, or a bonus unique to industrial hulls, that gives their pilots the option to instantaneously self-destruct their ship and destroy all the contents within, except the pod. Ideally, this action would grant no killmails to anyone, including ships that had done damage to the vessel prior to its scuttling.

With this solution, the industrialist has not 'won'. He lost his ship and cargo, just as he would have, yet he has struck back at the gankers and denied them absolute victory, which they are currently guaranteed with but a little simple math and some preparation, as this thread clearly illustrates. This would also add depth to being a ganker, by imparting some modicum of true risk rather than just additional cost.

I think module form would probably be ideal so that (over)confident industrialists could neglect it - but if it were introduced, it should be limited to industrial ships just as the MJD is limited to BS's, to prevent the robbing of victory in mutual combat.

Edit: The downside of module form is that you could not currently fit it to freighters, which should absolutely have the same option.

Edit 2: Another idea in the same vein of imparting some circumstantial control to the soloist is to introduce a module that allows a pilot to 'lie' to a ship scanner. It would likely be a passive module that, when fit, allowed you to set up a 'fake fit' for your vessel that ship scanners zero in on. This has extra potential as a possible bait mechanic, so I wouldn't even limit this module to industrial hulls. This would work particularly well if it existed in tandem with the previously mentioned 'self destruct' module, as you could bluff having one, or hide the fact that you did have one.

This is, again, an effort to make ganking unprofitable. It can be likened to saying, "Well if I'm not going to make a profit off the stuff in my cargohold, these sociopaths* certainly aren't going to make a profit either!"

Point 1) Maybe people think that if ganking isn't profitable, the sociopaths* won't do it so much.

The truth of the matter is that industrialists already have every tool they need to decrease profitability of ganking. But rather than organize to do it, manipulate and exploit the existing mechanics, and do the work. they instead come to the forum asking for changes to the mechanics. Let me tell you how to make this less profitable.

First, who builds ships in this game? Industrialists.
Second, who sells built ships in this game? Industrialists.

So what in Divinity's Edge is stopping you, your corp, your alliance, and even a coalition of several highsec, industrial alliances from mass producing armadas of Catalysts, Thrashers, Talos', and Tornadoes, and jacking the price of these ships to levels of sheer obnoxiousness. You can do the same with the mods they use to fit these ships. Obviously, the sociopaths* can build their own ships but miners can also get stupid with mineral prices as well. ****, if nothing else it puts more ISK in the pockets of the industrialist just based on sales.

Point 2) CONCORD response times are just fine.

No one wants to lose their ship filled with goodies. But literally thousands of freighters dock in and undock from Jita IV-4 daily. Not everyone gets blown up. If you do get blown up, you have my sympathy, but did something you should not have done. It is because of point 1 that point 2 is true.

Every time I undock my Bustard from Jita I am getting scanned as is likely every freight ship coming out of that station. Because the primary motivator is profitability (see Point 1), I feel relatively safe because I'm not carrying a bunch of stuff whereas the Obelisk that keeps bumping into me probably is. If a tiger is chasing me and my friend, I don't have to be faster than the tiger, I need to be faster than my friend.

Again, it's one thing if a few Freighters get blown up now and again - working as intended.
If every freighter and hauler and mining ship and mining support is getting blown up - then that is not working as intended and would merit a change in the mechanic.

*constantly labeling a fellow player as a sociopath only makes you look like an idiot Dinsdale. As you don't know the drive behind an individual player's action, you are not in anyway qualified to diagnose whatever mental condition they may or may not have. My suggestion is that you change your vernacular in these references from "sociopath" to "PVP-enthusiast". I actually did the same IRL. I'm sure Kaarous is going to lose his **** about this but in the US we have people that believe the solution to gun crime is not less guns but more guns. I think that is ******* stupid and for a while referred to these people as "psychos". But I am not qualified to make that diagnosis. So now I simply refer to them as "gun enthusiasts".

I would just like to point out that it's not really 29 versus 1 directly, it's 29 cats against an elephant. Pretty sure the elephant could quite happily keep on walking and totally ignore 29 cats.

Also, generally speaking - and it does not apply in EVE, cause its just game - when a bunch of robbers manage to "gank" a money transport, the companies go back to the drawing board and try to make a better transport, IF of course it's happening too often, and ganking seems to be happening a bit too often.

Also, unlike EVE, in real life, if you are caught, and put in jail, you do not get to buy tags to get your "reputation" back up, and you can get perma-killed, so you won't do it again, in EVE it's too easy to get back out.

I'm not leaning either way, I'm just trying to point out that it's kinda hard to make comparisons, or simply say "working as intended" simply because your way of playing isn't effected - or in some cases helped - by some mechanics.

In Null you can follow a freighter around and kill anyone non corp affiliated that gets on grid and looks too suspect, you can scout ahead on a gate and engage anyone camping on the other side without them going suspect like in hisec.

In Hisec all you can do is NOT jump through a gate when the traffic looks suspect on the other side, if you misjudge that, as far as I have heard, no remote repair will help you, and they can stop you aligning with bumping, and you cant the gank ships to stop them firing, when they are alpha tornados set up to kill on a single volley, as they wont be red until after firing.

I just think hisec has really weird mechanics.

Really, its funny how the argument has come full circle since 2008.

2008:
Teary eyed Carebears: "Ganking is too easy!"

Nursemaid CCP: "OK, we'll half the Concord response time and double the sec penalties"

Gankers: "OK, whatever"
And they bring more firepower to the zone, insure it, and start ganking with -10 chars.

Late 2011:
Carebears: "No fair that gankers get insurance - it doesn't make sense!"

Gankers: "Well, neither does insurance for self-destruction? WTF...."
(self destruction of ships for profit was actually big business at the time, a highly profitable carebear activity....)

Carebears: "I don't care! CCP, Remove insurance for gankers and then things will be fine!"

CCP: "OK, OK, fine - no more insurance for gankers."

Gankers: "Sigh..."
Early 2012:
And they start launching multiple rapid-fire raids while GCCed the whole time. Ice belts are cleared. A Youtube video is produced to much hilarity.

Carebears: "NO FAIR! EXPLOIT!"

CCP: "Nerfed."
Early 2012:
Gankers: Tornado Boomerang tactic is developed. Ice belts are cleared. Freighters are popped.

Carebears: "NO FAIR! EXPLOIT!"

CCP: "Nerfed."

2012:
Gankers return to their roots and group up and start profiting by clearing belts with small gangs of cheap ships.
Player driven content is provided when Goonswarm steps in and provides a replacement for insurance - the Exhumer bounty during Hulkaggeddon infinite.

Carebears: "Fix exhumers! I shouldn't have to tank my mining ship! Ganking miners shouldn't be profitable!!!"

CCP: "Sure, sure. We'll redesign Exhumers so you no longer have to use any fitting sense. Quadruple the EHP. And we'll give them massive cargoholds so you can AFK all you like! And for the truly risk-adverse - here's a 10M ISK T1 Barge with battleship-level EHP! Ha Ha! What a funny joke!"

Carebears: "BB...But I can't fit enough mining crystals into my Hulk's cargohold! Give us MORE cargo hold."

CCP: "Good point. We'll reduce the size of the crystals."

Carebears: "But I can't fit ALL the crystals in there, the Hulk sucks!"

CCP: "STFU, and fly the good ships we just spoon fed you."

Gankers roll their eyes. Miner ganking loses its profitability.
'Hulkageddon' dies - because nobody flies Hulks anymore.

2012-2014

CCP: "Hey look guys, Crimewatch! We'll really stick it to those dirty highsec criminals now! Killrights!"
Carebears: "Yay!"
Gankers: (yawn) "Seriously? We are ALREADY -10, remember? Killrights are meaningless!"
Carebears: "BRB, selling my killrights now!"

Miniluv continues killing freighters on an industrial scale.
James 315 steps in and finds creative ways to motivate, inspire, and fund Exhumer gankers, pushing them to greater and greater achievements.

And, as always, the carebear whines continue apace.

Carebears: "Speed up Concord MORE!"
Carebears: "NPCs should start podding! But not mission runners, ONLY gankers!"
Carebears: "Buff freighters, 150-200K EHP isn't enough when I want to haul 10B ISK worth of cargo through Uedama!"
Carebears: "Nerf destroyers!"

No you don't, because you do not suicide gank with your main, but an alt. You main stays clean and can do those other ways of playing, get recruited, and so on.

No you do not have to. Just fly with a low status. Gankers do it all the time.


So what? Your gank alt is undocked for just a few minutes at a time. Little can happen in that time and even if it does hes always in a cheap ship and a cheap clone.

If we could only have a single pilot on a single account all the consequences of ganking would have meaning. But given we can have alts they simply do not. The "consequences" are just a few game mechanics to work around.

my alts orca routinely sat at 230k ehp, add a reinforced bulkhead to accompany the dcu as well as the shield tank. yeah sure dual tanked, but 230k without using rig slots, could push that much further still.

exactly how i used to roll when i boosted for mining ops. I threw in the t2 shield resist link in place of the less cpu for mining stuff link as well just gave mining range and cycle time, to help out my mining buddies



thats why i used an instawarp gnosis to get my 5.5b of officer mods from jita to amarr stright through the guts of the niarja gankland, never took a scratch! Sadly, they now languish there, as i no longer have a use for them lol